Can I bottle condition in a growler

I fail to see the relevance of rogue bottles at Costco as they are not bottle conditioned. Pressures during bottle conditioning are undefined and can get high, how high is anyone's guess.

Likely they will work fine, but I'm not familiar with that type of growler.


Wilserbrewer
Http://biabbags.webs.com/

wilserbrewer said:

I fail to see the relevance of rogue bottles at Costco as they are not bottle conditioned. Pressures during bottle conditioning are undefined and can get high, how high is anyone's guess.

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The following explanation is my view of the question by my research, knowledge, and experience. I am NOT a scientist, and this explanation is merely the free exchange of ideas; an open debate. Please proceed at your own risk!


Pressures are NOT undefined and there is a perfect scientific explanation for what goes on during bottle conditioning. It is NOT a guess!

When Rogue sets their growlers out at Costco, the beer warms up. However, as the growler is capped, it remains a closed system. In order to contain the same Volumes of CO2 in the growler at the warmer temperature, the PSI goes up. If the growler held 2.5 volumes CO2 at serving temperature, that pressure at room temp goes up to around 30PSI. Therefore, we can safely assume that the growlers will at least hold 30PSI, since Costco would likely not take the liability of having bottle bombs sitting around their stores (or anyone else that stocks the Rogue growlers at room temp).

During BOTTLE CONDITIONING, you are still dealing with the closed system. The CO2 is produced in the beer and then DIFFUSED into the headspace. It is totally unlike keg force carbonation in which the CO2 is placed at pressure in the headspace and then diffused into the beer. The highest pressure the bottle headspace can hold is the highest pressure the beer GIVES it. Therefore, the highest pressure the headspace of the growler will be subjected to will be the final carbonation pressure (somewhere around 30PSI for 2.5 volumes at 65 degrees).

NOW- some places don't want you to leave your growlers out at room temp, because they are concerned with the pressure. However, some obviously don't care, which is why I used the Rogue example. I'm sure Rogue has enough lawyers working for them that if there was a potential liability from subjecting their growlers to 30PSI, they would change their packaging.

I have yet to find a thread where someone used a standard 64oz growler and it exploded under standard bottle conditioning.

This guy used a standard clear cider jug- not a real growler-
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/exploding-growlers-89246/

I think if we actually care about the safety of our fellow brewers, friends, family, children and pets, we would be wise not to mess around. Its not worth it. You saw the guys leg, you heard about the one that embedded shards of glass into all the walls around the explosion. That's serious stuff. Fragmentation can blind people, sever arteries, fatally injure pets and kids that may knock them over. You could lay a bottle on the table beside it and it blasts off sending glass into your throat, guts and face.
I find it pretty ignorant people are saying "I've been doing it for awhile so it must be fine". You bet, it will be fine right up until it explodes and messes you or your loved ones up for life. This is just beer people! Quit taking dangerous short cuts and then preach about how everything is fine on a forum where newbies are looking for sound advice. Its been proven that NOT ALL growlers and jugs are safe for anything beyond filling. Call the vendors/manufacturers and find out for sure.

Not until its been proven by a manufacturer to hold up to the rigours of fermentation, condition AND filling would I seal one of these myself. But I guess there is natural selection at play... Just be careful guys.

Ok so I won't be carbing in my growlers, what should I do with them. I'd like to keep them for when I eventually start kegging, but until then they are just taking up space. Any suggestions


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fletchergsmith said:

Ok so I won't be carbing in my growlers, what should I do with them. I'd like to keep them for when I eventually start kegging, but until then they are just taking up space. Any suggestions


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I carbed in growlers once. I got lucky and won't do it again.

But to answer this, depending on your local laws you may be able to take empty growlers and get em filled in a brewery's tap room. I can do so here, but I know laws are screwy in some places.

And empty growlers also make good containers for starters since they're approximately the same volume as a 2L Erlenmeyer. If I need to do multiple starters at once one goes in an Erlenmeyer on the stir plat, the other(s) in growler and shaken.

I picked some of them up from my local brewery and can go get them refilled easy enough, but their still really new as a brewery ( opened a few months ago) so they've got a long way to go before I care to buy any more beer from them. The starter idea is good other that I have plenty of various glass wear I use for starters that's a little better sized for my stir plate. I just feel as though they should have some job other than collecting dust. If I don't find a use for them SWMBO will undoubtedly request there disposal.


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make a coin bank out of it. It's where you keep your beer money. If your just going to have to toss them out any way, why not.

Again, ZERO documented instances of brown glass beer growlers exploding! A few anecdotal instances, but no concrete evidence.

However, if you really want to talk safety of new brewers, you need look no further than these threads:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/broken-glass-carboy-horror-stories-compendium-376523/index24.html
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f85/carboy-brewing-accident-313454/
http://forums.morebeer.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=25146
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f14/broken-carboy-135392/
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/broken-carboy-club-314087/
http://brewing.lustreking.com/articles/brokencarboys.html

YET, every single "Beginner Brewing Kit" at every LHBS comes with......a glass carboy!

I was merely arguing against convention that is mostly superstition and that no one has brought up scientific evidence to prove.

Falcon3 said:

Again, ZERO documented instances of brown glass beer growlers exploding! A few anecdotal instances, but no concrete evidence.

However, if you really want to talk safety of new brewers, you need look no further than these threads:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/broken-glass-carboy-horror-stories-compendium-376523/index24.html
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f85/carboy-brewing-accident-313454/
http://forums.morebeer.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=25146
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f14/broken-carboy-135392/
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/broken-carboy-club-314087/
http://brewing.lustreking.com/articles/brokencarboys.html

YET, every single "Beginner Brewing Kit" at every LHBS comes with......a glass carboy!

I was merely arguing against convention that is mostly superstition and that no one has brought up scientific evidence to prove.

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And if you drop a growler, that too will break.

People. Have. Had. Them. Explode. If you want pictures we can find you pictures.

You're not keeping contents in a carboy under pressure unless you're doing something VERY wrong. We're talking about intentionally pressurizing something not meant to hold pressure. The comparison is apples to oranges. By that logic no one should brew because of the danger of boiling wort.

The difference is between accident and intentional misuse.

Here's one thread from a 10 second search. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=89246

Qhrumphf said:

Here's one thread from a 10 second search. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=89246

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Your 10-second search found someone bottling in a 1-gallon wine jug, NOT a growler. Try again?

Sorry for the snarky reply, that's what you get when you get snarky with me...

Now, If someone could supply several instances of growlers exploding under standard bottle conditioning, and explain rationally and scientifically why the growler shouldn't be able to hold that pressure, given that several brewers leave dozens of them out on room-temp shelves in gas stations and warehouses, I will listen to you. Mind you, people have bottles explode on them relatively often, so even IF you can find an instance, explosions are not without precedence when naturally carbonating in glass vessels. It seems to be one of the hazards of the trade.

Simply repeating dogma does not count as a valid response. For the record, I think there are many better ways of carbonating beers than in a growler, but I hate when people say you CAN'T do something and give no reasoned answer as to why not.

I bought 5, 2 liter palla growlers for the express purpose of bottle conditioning. Several sites that sell them say you can carbonate beer in them.

Falcon3 said:

The fact that Rogue growlers sit in the 75 degree Costco for weeks tells me that the glass growlers can easily withstand 30psi and more due to safety standards. I'm sure we would have heard about rogue bottle bombs killing local costco shoppers if there was a problem.


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Rogue doesn't bottle condition in growlers; they dispense finished beer into them. Different animal altogether...

Looks like you decided to simply ignore multiple posts - where people explained that pressure spikes during conditioning because the yeast produces CO2 faster than the beer absorbs it, before coming back down as the CO2 is absorbed.

Falcon3 said:

Sorry for the snarky reply, that's what you get when you get snarky with me...

Now, If someone could supply several instances of growlers exploding under standard bottle conditioning, and explain rationally and scientifically why the growler shouldn't be able to hold that pressure, given that several brewers leave dozens of them out on room-temp shelves in gas stations and warehouses, I will listen to you. Mind you, people have bottles explode on them relatively often, so even IF you can find an instance, explosions are not without precedence when naturally carbonating in glass vessels. It seems to be one of the hazards of the trade.

Simply repeating dogma does not count as a valid response. For the record, I think there are many better ways of carbonating beers than in a growler, but I hate when people say you CAN'T do something and give no reasoned answer as to why not.

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Post #26 in this thread: growler exploded.

Post #38 in this thread: growler exploded.

Post #47 in this thread: growler exploded.

Post #74 in this thread: growler exploded.

Post #76 in this thread: growler exploded.

I believe five instances qualifies as 'several.'

Those posters aren't 'repeating dogma,' they're relating their personal experiences with exploding growlers. And they were all conditioning beer when it happened, as opposed to storing or shipping finished beer like Rogue does. That alone should tell you that conditioning puts higher stresses than normal on growlers.

Of course, you can do anything you want with your own growlers (I might even have a suggestion or two). If you do blow one up while conditioning in it, I probably won't hear it from my house anyway. And with a little luck, there won't be any women or children around if it happens.

JINKS said:

I bought 5, 2 liter palla growlers for the express purpose of bottle conditioning. Several sites that sell them say you can carbonate beer in them.

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They certainly look stout, and you're right: they're advertised as strong enough to condition beer in. I'd probably feel safe using one...

1. Ok, you've got me Troy- there are several instances on this thread of growlers exploding. Again, we have no documentation other than anecdotal evidence- no description of what kind of "growler" , no pictures, or what processes led up to the explosion. I'll also reiterate that glass bottles explode all the time, so explosions in glass vessels are fairly common.

troy2000 said:

Rogue doesn't bottle condition in growlers; they dispense finished beer into them. Different animal altogether...

Looks like you decided to simply ignore multiple posts - where people explained that pressure spikes during conditioning because the yeast produces CO2 faster than the beer absorbs it, before coming back down as the CO2 is absorbed.

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I've already explained in this thread that your explanation is false. I won't go into it again, but you can find it about 10 posts up.

Perhaps we should restart this thread over in the "Beer Science" category to get more scientific input, because again, I haven't seen much evidence other than conjecture and heresay.

Also think about how many places in the US sell growlers! Then think about how warning-label happy this country is! McDonalds has to tell people their coffee is HOT so they don't get sued. If it were dangerous to leave growlers at room temp, there would be warning labels all over them to keep them cold and stories on the news about how families were maimed by exploding beer growlers.

Again, someone will refute this post by saying bottle carbing is different than letting beer sit at room temp. IT ISN'T. There is a scientific explanation a page earlier on this thread as to why bottle carbing and existing pressure in a vessel at room temp are THE SAME. If you take issue with my scientific evidence, please refute me with scientific evidence. Thanks

Falcon3 said:

The fact that Rogue growlers sit in the 75 degree Costco for weeks tells me that the glass growlers can easily withstand 30psi and more due to safety standards. I'm sure we would have heard about rogue bottle bombs killing local costco shoppers if there was a problem.

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With this line of reasoning we can assume that any bottle sold containing beer can be used for bottle conditioning...

Falcon3 said:

Also think about how many places in the US sell growlers! Then think about how warning-label happy this country is! McDonalds has to tell people their coffee is HOT so they don't get sued. If it were dangerous to leave growlers at room temp, there would be warning labels all over them to keep them cold and stories on the news about how families were maimed by exploding beer growlers.

Again, someone will refute this post by saying bottle carbing is different than letting beer sit at room temp. IT ISN'T. There is a scientific explanation a page earlier on this thread as to why bottle carbing and existing pressure in a vessel at room temp are THE SAME. If you take issue with my scientific evidence, please refute me with scientific evidence. Thanks

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I think it is different just as every beer is different. As Troy replied, the yeast produce co2 faster than the beer can absorb it. If every beer is different, as it is, then maybe there's going to be more yeast in a growler full of a much higher gravity beer than one that's filled with a simple session-able pale ale. More yeast = more co2 production which I would be led to believe would produce the higher psi pressures that would cause a growler to grenade itself. That's the first thing that crossed my mind when reading Troy's post and maybe that's the reason why everyone hasn't or has had one explode while conditioning.

The McDonald's analogy is weak as they admitted they brewed their coffees at a lot higher temperature than other restaurants do because of the bright idea of higher temp coffee will stay hot longer on a long commute to work. Brilliant if you're not going to drink the coffee immediately, but Mickey D's admitted they were wrong on that as their customers were drinking it as soon as they were driving off. More here -> (Liebeck vs McDonalds)

There's nothing wrong about warranting scientific evidence on something, but there is something wrong when individuals who have posted their experience with the exploding growler is dismissed as repeated dogma. To me, personal experience has some validity to it. If evidence is that important to you, then maybe do some experiments of your own and post those findings here. Who knows? Maybe that would change my mind on using growlers to condition beer (a thought, til I researched it), but for now I'm not taking the chance.

There's a difference between "you can't do it" and "there's a major risk". And people saying "it's happened to me" not being sufficient for you simply because there is no picture is setting an unreasonable burden of proof especially considering how many have said this. Guaranteed explosion? No. Higher risk? Yes.

No offense, but I'll take the Brewer's Association word over yours. Bottle conditioning fails a number of their recommendations.

http://www.draughtquality.org/wp-content/uploads/The-Facts-About-Growlers-v1.pdf

As far as Rogue's growlers being safe at room temp, they may be specifically designed with that much pressure. It doesn't appear there's a set standard, much like beer bottles. Some bottles don't hold up well.

Falcon3 said:

1. Ok, you've got me Troy- there are several instances on this thread of growlers exploding. Again, we have no documentation other than anecdotal evidence- no description of what kind of "growler" , no pictures, or what processes led up to the explosion. I'll also reiterate that glass bottles explode all the time, so explosions in glass vessels are fairly common.



I've already explained in this thread that your explanation is false. I won't go into it again, but you can find it about 10 posts up.

Perhaps we should restart this thread over in the "Beer Science" category to get more scientific input, because again, I haven't seen much evidence other than conjecture and heresay.

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Yes, I got you. I gave you exactly what you demanded, and now you're refusing to accept it. Instead you've essentially called five posters in this thread liars, because they didn't show pictures and extensive documentation. Shame on you.

Saying "glass bottles explode all the time, so explosions in glass vessels are fairly common" directly undercuts your main argument: that since Rogue growlers at Costco aren't exploding, using a growler to condition won't make it explode.

Let's get real here: why aren't Rogue growlers at Costco exploding? For the same reason pickle jars in supermarkets aren't exploding: BECAUSE NO ONE IS CONDITIONING BEER IN THEM!

I'm done with you.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/pressure-gauge-mounted-bottle-cap-268151/index6.html#post4846912


Graph shows pressure going higher and then settling down towards end of carbonation.
Admittedly this is in a standard beer bottle, but it does illustrate the pressure changes during bottle conditioning.

troy2000 said:

They certainly look stout, and you're right: they're advertised as strong enough to condition beer in. I'd probably feel safe using one...

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I just filled one with an Brewers Best English Pale Ale. Of course after reading this thread now I'm nervous about a big bomb.

Qhrumphf said:

There's a difference between "you can't do it" and "there's a major risk". And people saying "it's happened to me" not being sufficient for you simply because there is no picture is setting an unreasonable burden of proof especially considering how many have said this. Guaranteed explosion? No. Higher risk? Yes.

No offense, but I'll take the Brewer's Association word over yours. Bottle conditioning fails a number of their recommendations.

http://www.draughtquality.org/wp-content/uploads/The-Facts-About-Growlers-v1.pdf

As far as Rogue's growlers being safe at room temp, they may be specifically designed with that much pressure. It doesn't appear there's a set standard, much like beer bottles. Some bottles don't hold up well.

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I clicked on that, and read it. One thing I learned is that overfilling growlers can make them dangerous. It says you should fill only to the manufacturer's fill line if there is one, and otherwise leave at least 5% of the total volume empty.

So overfilling might have contributed to some of the growler bombs we've been reading about....

JINKS said:

I bought 5, 2 liter palla growlers for the express purpose of bottle conditioning. Several sites that sell them say you can carbonate beer in them.

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Week 2 conditioning a BB English Pale ale and yesterday I just started to condition a BB American Cream ale.
No Explosions yet thank goodness.

05-25-14 to 06-18-14 in the palla growler no explosion. Tried a 12oz bottle or 3 the other day delicious if I do say so myself.