Ph meters

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lehr

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Do you need temp calibration on a ph meter ? I see that some meters only calibrate up to 122 degrees what if you dough in at a higher temp ?
Ok beer rocket scientests let it rip.
Also one of my vendors might beable to get me an oakton water proof big display for free is this one any good ?

Pat
 
For a number of reasons, perhaps most importantly extending the life of the fairly fragile and expensive probe (typically around $60 for a probe that might last two years if you baby it), you don't want to measure the pH of hot liquids.

Taking and cooling a small sample is the typical path. A sample in a beer taster glass cools to reference (room) temp for me in a few minutes in my freezer. If I needed to I could figure out a way to cool it much faster (seconds).
 
For a number of reasons, perhaps most importantly extending the life of the fairly fragile and expensive probe (typically around $60 for a probe that might last two years if you baby it), you don't want to measure the pH of hot liquids.

Taking and cooling a small sample is the typical path. A sample in a beer taster glass cools to reference (room) temp for me in a few minutes in my freezer. If I needed to I could figure out a way to cool it much faster (seconds).

Freeze the glass before putting the sample in it?
 
Freeze the glass before putting the sample in it?

Or a thin stainless shotglass in an ice bath or a shallow cooling pan.

I dough in at 104 and have plenty of time to fix the pH if needed. The sample is cool by the time I have calibrated the meter.
 
Not to hijack but... What about those colorphast test strips can they be used at hot mash temps like 150F or are they more accurate at room temps?
 
Not to hijack but... What about those colorphast test strips can they be used at hot mash temps like 150F or are they more accurate at room temps?

pH is not temperature dependent, the function of a pH meter is. The meter needs to know the temperature to return pH, a meter without ATC simply assumes reference temperature.

So the strips work* at any temperature (that they will physically survive, of course).

*not very well IMO.
 
*not very well IMO.

Thanks for the info. I'm aware of their short comings but they are cheaper and easier to maintain then a real pH meter. Per the info on Kai's site, you add .3 to the strip reading and that gets you in the ballpark of the actual pH. Not perfect but better than nothing. :fro:
 
pH is not temperature dependent,

Huh? Since when?

" Accurate measurement and reporting of pH data
has been a long-standing problem due to the
effects of temperature. An increase in any
solutions’ temperature will cause a decrease in
its viscosity and an increase in the mo bility of its
ions in solution. An increase in temperature may
also lead to an increase in the number of ions in
solution due to the dissociation of molecules
(this is particularly true for weak acids and
bases). As pH is a measure of the hydrogen ion
concentration, a change in the temperature of a
solution will be reflected by a subsequent change
in pH(1)."
 
Huh? Since when?

" Accurate measurement and reporting of pH data
has been a long-standing problem due to the
effects of temperature. An increase in any
solutions’ temperature will cause a decrease in
its viscosity and an increase in the mo bility of its
ions in solution. An increase in temperature may
also lead to an increase in the number of ions in
solution due to the dissociation of molecules
(this is particularly true for weak acids and
bases). As pH is a measure of the hydrogen ion
concentration, a change in the temperature of a
solution will be reflected by a subsequent change
in pH(1)."

Yes, the pH is a function of the log of the log of temperature which is to say, for our purposes, insensitive to temperature.

The idea that pH at 150 degrees is .2 units different than at room temperature is wrong, that difference, which is of significant magnitude, is a result of the meter's function and not pH.

So technically the strips will read different, but you won't notice it. And the true difference in pH due to temperature (not meter artifacts) can be ignore in brewing.
 
Yes, the pH is a function of the log of the log of temperature which is to say, for our purposes, insensitive to temperature.

The idea that pH at 150 degrees is .2 units different than at room temperature is wrong, that difference, which is of significant magnitude, is a result of the meter's function and not pH.

So technically the strips will read different, but you won't notice it. And the true difference in pH due to temperature (not meter artifacts) can be ignore in brewing.

That is better. ;)
 
Do you need temp calibration on a ph meter ?
Strictly speaking, no but if you do have it it can be a big convenience, particularly during calibration. If you do not have it then either both buffers must be at the same temperature and the sample must be at the same temperature as the buffers or you must do yourself the math required to interpret and correct the buffer readings and the sample readings.

If you do use ATC you should still try to have the buffer and sample temperatures pretty close so that the ATC doesn't have to do too much. Proper functioning of ATC depends on the isolelectric pH (the pH at which the electrodes response does not repond to temperature being 7. ATC introduced by isoelectric pH being different from 7 are small but increase with the temperature differences.

The voltage produced by a pH electrode is

E = Ei + Un*T*(pH - pHi)

where Ei is the voltage it produces when immersed in a solution of pH equal to pHi, the isoelectric pH, Un is the Nerst coefficient and T the temperature of the solution in Kelvins. Un*T has value -58.67 mV/pH at 20 °C. Note that Un*T is the theoretical response. A real electrode will have a slope of lesser magnitude than 58.67 and it is the role of calibration to determine what that slope is as well as the value for Ei. That's why 2 buffers are used: 2 equations in 2 unknowns.

The equation shows that the response of the meter is directly proportional to temperature. But pH can be a function of temperature as well. The nature of the dependence is usually, as is the case with wort, decreasing pH with increasing temperature. It's widely accepted that wort/mash has a pH lower at mash temperature by about 0.2 pH than it is at room temperature but that depends on the nature of the grist and the mineral content of the water. In some cases the opposite is true. The pH of the typical pthalate pH 4 buffer is 4.002 at 20 °C but is 4.125 at 70 °C. OTOH the phosphate buffer usually used for pH 7 has pH 7.017 at 20 °C and 6.981 at 70 °C i.e. a drop but one of small magnitude compared to wort and the pH 4 buffer.

The usual explanation for pH drop with increasing temerature is that it takes less energy to abstract a proton from an acid at higher temperaure as all the parts of a molecule are in a higher energy state from the thermal induced motion. I.e. the pK's of the acids involved drop and so, thus, does the pH.

Given the various ways pH changes with temperature I'm not sure I believe the log(log(temp)) rule. IIRC the variation is pretty linear for wort. For pH 4 buffer pH(K) = 1617.3/K - 9.2852 + 0.033311*K - 2.3211e-5*K*K, with K being the temperature in Kelvins, describes the variation pretty well.
 
Exactly how, then, are we supposed to measure the pH of such a solution?

By putting the electrode into a sample of the solution. I have certainly measured the pH of many an acid and bleach (though I don't do that very often - the sodium ion in bleach will throw most pH electrodes off) without dramatic effect. There are no such caveats in any pH electrode manual I have. It would be a good idea to avoid hydrofluoric acid as that will etch (dissolve) the bulb but acetic acid, lactic acid, citric acid, phosphoric acid etc. should all be pretty safe as long as the temperature is kept low. "Rejuvenation" routines for pH electrodes often call for transfer back and forth between strong acid and base. When all else fails some even suggest a dip in hydrofluoric acid because it does etch the glass thus forming a fresh surface.
 
By putting the electrode into a sample of the solution. I have certainly measured the pH of many an acid and bleach (though I don't do that very often - the sodium ion in bleach will throw most pH electrodes off) without dramatic effect. There are no such caveats in any pH electrode manual I have. It would be a good idea to avoid hydrofluoric acid as that will etch (dissolve) the bulb but acetic acid, lactic acid, citric acid, phosphoric acid etc. should all be pretty safe as long as the temperature is kept low. "Rejuvenation" routines for pH electrodes often call for transfer back and forth between strong acid and base. When all else fails some even suggest a dip in hydrofluoric acid because it does etch the glass thus forming a fresh surface.

Use of hydrofluoric acid comes up on the amateur telescope making list from time to time. This stuff can be pretty dangerous compared to the cost of new electrodes. Reportedly people have died from it days later because they didn't know they had a small pinprick sized hole in a glove, etc....
http://www.fap.pdx.edu/safety/hydrofluoric_acid/
 
Use of hydrofluoric acid comes up on the amateur telescope making list from time to time. This stuff can be pretty dangerous compared to the cost of new electrodes. Reportedly people have died from it days later because they didn't know they had a small pinprick sized hole in a glove,

There is no doubt that it is pretty nasty stuff and to be treated with tremendous respect. Not only is the acid very toxic but the silicon hexafluoride gas released when it reacts with glass will do you as well.

Interestingly enough the danger of the stuff lies in the fact that it is a weak acid. It doesn't dissociate much in water and that is what allows it to penetrate flesh right down to the bone. Ecch.

I'm not advocating use of hydrofluoric acid!
 
There is no doubt that it is pretty nasty stuff and to be treated with tremendous respect. Not only is the acid very toxic but the silicon hexafluoride gas released when it reacts with glass will do you as well.

Interestingly enough the danger of the stuff lies in the fact that it is a weak acid. It doesn't dissociate much in water and that is what allows it to penetrate flesh right down to the bone. Ecch.

I'm not advocating use of hydrofluoric acid!

On the amateur telescope making list we have lots of folks that English isn't their first language. Folks from NASA and all sorts of varied backgrounds so we have learned to be extra careful about some things. There was someone on this board (maybe more than one) that posted he did his first boil and ended up with about a gallon of 'tar like substance'. How you get to the point of doing your first boil with NO clue to final volume is beyond me, but...... Just something to keep in mind. It was probably a good hint for the right people though. Someone with an expensive meter may already be working in a lab environment where they have access to something like that.
 
By putting the electrode into a sample of the solution. I have certainly measured the pH of many an acid and bleach (though I don't do that very often - the sodium ion in bleach will throw most pH electrodes off) without dramatic effect. There are no such caveats in any pH electrode manual I have. It would be a good idea to avoid hydrofluoric acid as that will etch (dissolve) the bulb but acetic acid, lactic acid, citric acid, phosphoric acid etc. should all be pretty safe as long as the temperature is kept low. "Rejuvenation" routines for pH electrodes often call for transfer back and forth between strong acid and base. When all else fails some even suggest a dip in hydrofluoric acid because it does etch the glass thus forming a fresh surface.

OK... I'm not trying to be a pain here, but I don't understand.

Yes, put the electrode in a sample. That's fine. But that's exactly what the other poster said to avoid doing. Can you give a little more clarity to me here? I don't understand what you're saying!

Perhaps this: are you saying that, instead of sticking the probe into a five-gallon bucket of mixed sanitiser, that one should draw off a small sample into a test jar and use that to measure the pH?

If this is indeed what you are saying, I don't understand how they are functionally much different.
 
Use of hydrofluoric acid comes up on the amateur telescope making list from time to time. This stuff can be pretty dangerous compared to the cost of new electrodes. Reportedly people have died from it days later because they didn't know they had a small pinprick sized hole in a glove, etc....
http://www.fap.pdx.edu/safety/hydrofluoric_acid/

I work in the semiconductor industry; years ago, I used to be a process engineer, which game me reason to use HF. When I was in college, they required safety classes before allowing us into the cleanroom, due to the dangerous chemicals used in processing (and HF is only the tip of the iceberg).

You are very wise to be wary of using it.
 
Sorry, I think I confused ppl. I was just trying to say that you should meas. pH at room temp.

About Star San, you can use the probe to meas. its pH; just don't leave it in those sol'n for a long period of time (this didn't come through in my last post). You can mess up the electrode by leaving it in very alkaline or acidic sol'n for an extended period of time.

By all means meas. the pH of your Star san sol'n if you must.

When meas. the mash pH, you take a sample of wort out, cool it, then meas that sample. I would wait a few minutes after dough in to take out the sample, to let it equilibrate.
 
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