Automated Rig Piping review

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Haha that's the motto I live by. I just think what you plan on doing is going to be suck a pain in the A**!
 
kickflip_mj said:
Haha that's the motto I live by. I just think what you plan on doing is going to be suck a pain in the A**!
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Yep, the problem that I am looking to solve is to have a portable sensor that I can plug into anywhere in the brew process where I want liquid volume measurement in gallons. Probably makes the most sense to just use the timer/counter approach.
 
For connecting up to a Brewtroller it shouldn't be too bad... should it? Just trying to remember the two plateforms (Brewtroller & BCS), but IIRC the brewtroller is open sourced and base of the arduino development platform, there are plenty of examples/code to use the voltage pulse/hall effect flow sensors in the Arduino community. If I ever get this far into automation I probably would be looking to start fresh with a micro (probably the Arduino, at least at first) and build my system around what I need, not what a vendor offers. Saying that since the brewtroller is open sourced I would likely be taking a few leaves out of their book :D - of coarse any new developments would be feed back inot the community :D
 
mattd2 said:
For connecting up to a Brewtroller it shouldn't be too bad... should it? Just trying to remember the two plateforms (Brewtroller & BCS), but IIRC the brewtroller is open sourced and base of the arduino development platform, there are plenty of examples/code to use the voltage pulse/hall effect flow sensors in the Arduino community. If I ever get this far into automation I probably would be looking to start fresh with a micro (probably the Arduino, at least at first) and build my system around what I need, not what a vendor offers. Saying that since the brewtroller is open sourced I would likely be taking a few leaves out of their book :D - of coarse any new developments would be feed back inot the community :D
Click to expand...

I poked around a bit and couldn't find any prior art for the BT or other platforms for pulse 5VDC input for flow calculations so I assumed I'd have to write it myself. I like the Arduino/Sanguino boards for I/O and I like Rasberry Pi for more complete linux development environment.... it's all software so it's not a big deal and should be reusable by others after I'm done... unfortunately it's one of a gazillion projects so I'm not sure when it will become the highest order bit.
 
kickflip_mj said:
Ok I figured that I could control the sparge using the volume sensing on the Brewtroller. the liquid is measured as it enters the BK
Click to expand...

AFAIK the "cheap" auto valves have no feedback right? (although one wiring config I saw had switches for fully open/closed) but that might not matter.

So to control flowrate is your plan to fix the MLT valve position and vary the HLT valve to match?

Flowrate or level, either should work in this circumstance assuming a straight sided pot.

So you need to compare the 2 vessels emptying/filling. and adjust the HLT valve so that they match - thats the easy part right.

The hard part is controlling the HLT valve, made even harder by the fact there is no feedback so you don't "know" where the valve is - although that might not be an issue.
depending on the wiring of the valve will depend on how you control. Not really my realm of expertise but I'll throw ideas out to build on.

Force open/close (easier)- when an error signal between the rate changes is detected, the valve is switched for error*X seconds.

Force open / fail closed - could you set up a PWM at a high(?) frequency. Base output of this is 50%, this should keep the valve in the "last" position - i.e. it is opening/closing for half the cycle assuming the open/close rate are the same. Then based on the error adjust the PWM over/under 50% - output = 50% + 50%*error*proportional constant.

With error being (HLT change - BK change) / BK change -> making sure your +/- are the right way round for how you are measuring it.
As I said no even an entry level systems engineer but something to start throwing around :D

Also where are you getting and how much are the triclover auto valves?
 
marcb said:
I poked around a bit and couldn't find any prior art for the BT or other platforms for pulse 5VDC input for flow calculations so I assumed I'd have to write it myself. I like the Arduino/Sanguino boards for I/O and I like Rasberry Pi for more complete linux development environment.... it's all software so it's not a big deal and should be reusable by others after I'm done... unfortunately it's one of a gazillion projects so I'm not sure when it will become the highest order bit.
Click to expand...

I found some stuff yesterday when I was digging around - I'll post links when I get back on my laptop.
Rasberry Pi looks very interesting but way too complex for me to deal with, arduino and C++ will test me enough I am sure.
Can the Pi be setup to run just as a linux (ubuntu?) "computer" that you just need to plug a usb keyboard/mouse into and a HDMI screen (any semi modern TV)? I know it would be a waste of the platform but would make a nice second computer for my household.
 
mattd2 said:
AFAIK the "cheap" auto valves have no feedback right? (although one wiring config I saw had switches for fully open/closed) but that might not matter.

So to control flowrate is your plan to fix the MLT valve position and vary the HLT valve to match?

Flowrate or level, either should work in this circumstance assuming a straight sided pot.

So you need to compare the 2 vessels emptying/filling. and adjust the HLT valve so that they match - thats the easy part right.

The hard part is controlling the HLT valve, made even harder by the fact there is no feedback so you don't "know" where the valve is - although that might not be an issue.
depending on the wiring of the valve will depend on how you control. Not really my realm of expertise but I'll throw ideas out to build on.

Force open/close (easier)- when an error signal between the rate changes is detected, the valve is switched for error*X seconds.

Force open / fail closed - could you set up a PWM at a high(?) frequency. Base output of this is 50%, this should keep the valve in the "last" position - i.e. it is opening/closing for half the cycle assuming the open/close rate are the same. Then based on the error adjust the PWM over/under 50% - output = 50% + 50%*error*proportional constant.

With error being (HLT change - BK change) / BK change -> making sure your +/- are the right way round for how you are measuring it.
As I said no even an entry level systems engineer but something to start throwing around :D

Also where are you getting and how much are the triclover auto valves?
Click to expand...

I haven't found any reasonable electric sanitary valves yet, my ideal would be 3 way electric 1" valves with 1.5" tri clamp fittings. I've got feelers on pneumatic valves and will then have to incorporate a series of gas solenoids to actuate.

For flow I'm looking for volume in for mash and out for boil kettle to tighten my consistency on brew day. In my setup I will be sparging with a tankless water heater and will use a float switch on my sparge assembly to keep the grain bed at the right level for sparging and manually control the liquid in valve on the brew kettle for sparge. Depending on tankless performance and lag time I may need an auto valve with temp control to ensure that the sparge water is at 180. Essentially the valve would divert until a temp probe hit 180 and then it would run into mash tun for sparge. I may be over complicating it though, I don't know how much temp loss in the lines I'll incur.
 
mattd2 said:
I found some stuff yesterday when I was digging around - I'll post links when I get back on my laptop.
Rasberry Pi looks very interesting but way too complex for me to deal with, arduino and C++ will test me enough I am sure.
Can the Pi be setup to run just as a linux (ubuntu?) "computer" that you just need to plug a usb keyboard/mouse into and a HDMI screen (any semi modern TV)? I know it would be a waste of the platform but would make a nice second computer for my household.
Click to expand...

Definitely no video or hdmi out, most of these are serial console boards but may have VGA output. USB for keyboard and mouse should be there.
 
mattd2 said:
Huh? Arn't you talking about this? http://www.raspberrypi.org/faqs
Both RCA video and HDMI on there? But no VGA.
Sorry for the off topic kickflip
Click to expand...

Yep, dang - I had the specs mixed up with another board. The model b specs are fantastic, most importantly for me is the onboard Ethernet and new header pins as I will use these headless.... Although piping an xterm on hdmi to an external touch screen is introguing.
 
marcb said:
Yep, dang - I had the specs mixed up with another board. The model b specs are fantastic, most importantly for me is the onboard Ethernet and new header pins as I will use these headless.... Although piping an xterm on hdmi to an external touch screen is introguing.
Click to expand...

Yep... you lost me :D But it does look like such a neat concept that you can have a basic computer with you and all you need is basic gear that you can find in any house really. I sure you could do some amazing things with it too...
I want one just to have one... but the Arduino mega board @ $20 from dealextream is just more inline with my needs today :)
 
kickflip_mj said:
Ok you guys lost me.lol

Mattd2,
For the valves I was planning on taking 1/2 valves https://www.oscsys.com/store/product/291 drill the threads out to 7/8, cut it down and weld a 1 inch ti clover to it.
Click to expand...

Sweet as, yeah that was what I was sort of thinking of doing to... in a few years time! Just wanted to make sure there wasn't some secret stash hidden away somewhere on the internet :D
Also have a look here TF valves - http://www.tf-valvefittings.com/goods-13.html
No maual overide on that one though, the same product range the manual overide valve is about $43 so not much savings to justify. But they have another brand with manual overide for $23. Really I would be looking at whether you need the overide as you could be saving over $150 on your valve order :D
I think they are the same valves, but cheaper direct from the chinesse vendor. I just noticed that it actually references brewtroller on the page!
You can also choose the wiring type.
Lots of different valves on that site though.
 
Sorry I havnt wrote back in a while, I'm in Germany doing some work (and drinking the best beer in the world) and hopefully will have ths project in full swing when I get back this weekend.
 
kickflip_mj said:
Sorry I havnt wrote back in a while, I'm in Germany doing some work (and drinking the best beer in the world) and hopefully will have ths project in full swing when I get back this weekend.
Click to expand...

Getting ready for my new build too so get your game on.....

image-2984281746.jpg
 
I apologize if this has been answered already, but what software are you using to make these great schematics?
 
Kickflip / marcb - You guys have put the fire under me too. I am now looking at Arduino megas & TFT LCD screens to start building a better control system than my Sestos PID.
Current plan is:
Retrofit the new control system to my existing rig - Temperature monitoring/control only.
Build and implement flow monitoring
Sell existing rig (with old control panel)
Build nice new shiney SS rig with actuated valves/flow control/fancy graphical display/bells/whistle
...
enter dog box :D
 
status update-- I have been working on my valves and have been failing all around.lol

First- I burned through a $50 dollar 7/8 cobalt bit in a matter of seconds(threads are extremly tough)
Second- I cut the threaded portion off thinking the butt weld would be easy- wrong- for some reason I can not fusion or use filler- the damn arc keeps jumping off the fitting to the tri clover.
So what I have been working on is attaching an existing tri-valve and motor together using 3d printing, How much would you pay on the high side for something like this?
 
kickflip_mj said:
status update-- I have been working on my valves and have been failing all around.lol

First- I burned through a $50 dollar 7/8 cobalt bit in a matter of seconds(threads are extremly tough)
Second- I cut the threaded portion off thinking the butt weld would be easy- wrong- for some reason I can not fusion or use filler- the damn arc keeps jumping off the fitting to the tri clover.
So what I have been working on is attaching an existing tri-valve and motor together using 3d printing, How much would you pay on the high side for something like this?
Click to expand...

1) how are you going about drilling them out?
2) When you say "cut the threaded portion off" do you mean you removed the section of valve with the flats and then tried to fillet weld a TC drilled blank? How would you reassemble the valve after you had done?

I was thinking that you would need to deassemble the valve, secure the ends to the drill press bench, drill slowly with plenty of cutting fluid, then but weld a 1" ferrule either end.

Whats your plan for the 3d printing. I would think you could just fabricate a adapter plate to mount the actuator onto the new TC valve. Most industrial valves I have seen use a ISO mounting. Can you take any photos of the actuator off the valve?
 
I went about drilling the threads out exactly as you just mentioned. I disassembled the valve, mounted it on a custom jig and started drilling on the press slowly, with lots of oil. Didn't work out.

If I am going to mass produce these I do not want to continue to fabricate plates all day. Im not apposed to sending it to water juet to cut parts though. I guess its all cost.
 
kickflip_mj said:
status update-- I have been working on my valves and have been failing all around.lol

First- I burned through a $50 dollar 7/8 cobalt bit in a matter of seconds(threads are extremly tough)
Second- I cut the threaded portion off thinking the butt weld would be easy- wrong- for some reason I can not fusion or use filler- the damn arc keeps jumping off the fitting to the tri clover.
So what I have been working on is attaching an existing tri-valve and motor together using 3d printing, How much would you pay on the high side for something like this?
Click to expand...

Heck, no idea. I know that 2-300$ for a 3way valve makes it crazy stupid expensive, even for me ; )
 
Im trying to produce these tri clover valves for around $60 each. I'm already in contact with two Chinese manufactures. But give me time for a lot of RD before I can place a huge order.
 
Id like to use butterfly valves, but we will see. Probably going to be ball valves.
 
kickflip_mj said:
I went about drilling the threads out exactly as you just mentioned. I disassembled the valve, mounted it on a custom jig and started drilling on the press slowly, with lots of oil. Didn't work out.

If I am going to mass produce these I do not want to continue to fabricate plates all day. Im not apposed to sending it to water juet to cut parts though. I guess its all cost.
Click to expand...

What drill speed, I have seen some mention going down to 150 RPM on hardened SS.
EDIT: Quick check for drilling normal 304 should be 17 SM/min which equals about 250 RPM for a 7/8" hole.
 
kickflip_mj said:
Im trying to produce these tri clover valves for around $60 each. I'm already in contact with two Chinese manufactures. But give me time for a lot of RD before I can place a huge order.
Click to expand...

Well, I am most certainly interested in automated valves with sanitary connections for under $100. Let me know if you need some assist on the R&D side as well....
 
Matt,

I think my RPMs were a tad to high, My press only will go down to 600rpms. Makes sense, but at your RPMS you would most likely need a lathe.


Marc,

Im going to need some people to test them out before I go spend thousands on valves. So I will keep you updated on my progress, but It probably wont be on this forum, more in private messsage.lol
 
kickflip_mj said:
Matt,

I think my RPMs were a tad to high, My press only will go down to 600rpms. Makes sense, but at your RPMS you would most likely need a lathe.

Marc,

Im going to need some people to test them out before I go spend thousands on valves. So I will keep you updated on my progress, but It probably wont be on this forum, more in private messsage.lol
Click to expand...

Cool. First use case would be doing flow based volumetric control reading pulse input and operating one of your valves. I can build the control off of the 1/2" threaded 12v valve (send me a source or model # and I will pick up a couple for testing) and mate it with my flow meter.
 
Ok so here is my question for the day... How do you feel about a mild steel stand powder coated black over stainless? the thing is Stainless is ridiculously expensive at the moment ... like $300 for a 20ft stick... I need about 60 ft.lol
 
kickflip_mj said:
Ok so here is my question for the day... How do you feel about a mild steel stand powder coated black over stainless? the thing is Stainless is ridiculously expensive at the moment ... like $300 for a 20ft stick... I need about 60 ft.lol
Click to expand...

Tube service in Milpitas is excellent supplier, bought 40 ft of 1x sq .065 at $3 and change per foot and 60 ft of 2x sq .065 at $4.5 per foot. Let me know what you need, you can cc pay and will call and I can pick up for you anytime.
 
marcb said:
Tube service in Milpitas is excellent supplier, bought 40 ft of 1x sq .065 at $3 and change per foot and 60 ft of 2x sq .065 at $4.5 per foot. Let me know what you need, you can cc pay and will call and I can pick up for you anytime.
Click to expand...

Sorry, that's for stainless. Mild steel is not gonna cut it for a stainless junkie like you.
 
Marc thank you! I think Im gonna go with mild for the frame- All the stainless piping will pop nicely- It is just way to costly to spend 700 on the frame alone- I have other cool gadgets to buy.lol
 
kickflip_mj said:
Marc thank you! I think Im gonna go with mild for the frame- All the stainless piping will pop nicely- It is just way to costly to spend 700 on the frame alone- I have other cool gadgets to buy.lol
Click to expand...

Cool, you should check their pricing on mild to see if it is worth the trip, they supply other steel shops with tube so they are usually the cheapest around.
 
kickflip_mj said:
Yeah but that is an hour and a half drive for me.. Gas will cost me $60.lol
Click to expand...

Yep but you aren't counting in all of the awesome beers on tap in my garage!
 
My 2 cents:

I'm currently building a "mostly triclamp" build also. And while I have very few threads that's probably not the biggest pain for sanitary. Ball valves are the real problem, the hold liquid behind the ball (3-way are the worst), if your sanitary obsessed you won't be able to clean them in place, they have to be disassembled.

I've got a few TC butterfly valves and they are much much nicer. I'm not trying to put down your build, I'm also using 3-way TC ball valves (manual) in mine...

For a TC ball valve my preference would be a 3pc one. They are around, you can take a TC ball with butt weld fitting and weld on a TC ferrule. Other then that it would be motorized butterfly, but they are big $$$$.

I recall someone on here took the TC 3-pc ball valves from china that has an actuator mount and then bought actuators to bolt on them. Pretty slick way to do it if you can get actuators for a reasonable price.
 
I have been sourcing valves and motors
at the moment and plan on selling them, the connectors are the hard part.

The only reason I am going ball valve is bc you can control flow with them
 

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