Help with under pitched Belgium brew

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Fredderick

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I screwed up and didn't make a starter... Just a brain fart... This was 8 weeks ago... It's in a secondary and still appears to be actively fermenting... The temp is 52 and the original gravity was 1.091

I just measured the gravity and it is down to 1.021...I took the reading with a refractometer and did the conversion to get that number.

Should I rack it to a co2 filled or fermenter and pitch another package of yeast or a starter?

Or should I just dump it out and start over given the fact there is still 4 months of conditioning left?

If you have any other suggestions just let me know.

Thanks!
 
Get that temp up! Any way to move it into the mid-70's?

But at this point, it needs to get off that yeast cake before the old yeasties start talking about how bad they have it and possibly turn the beer southward. I would either pitch a pack or two of Saison yeast, or 2 packs of K1V (wine yeast) to hopefully finish it off.

Rack it - Pitch it- Let it do it's thing
 
KeystoneHomebrew said:
Get that temp up! Any way to move it into the mid-70's?

But at this point, it needs to get off that yeast cake before the old yeasties start talking about how bad they have it and possibly turn the beer southward. I would either pitch a pack or two of Saison yeast, or 2 packs of K1V (wine yeast) to hopefully finish it off.

Rack it - Pitch it- Let it do it's thing
Click to expand...

Ok, thanks... I can move it to high 60's.

Should I use the same yeast I already used or is there a reason you recommended the yeasts you have
 
Are you sure it's still fermenting and not just off-gassing? After 8 weeks, any saccharomyces-only brew should be done fermenting. If it really is still actively fermenting, raise the temp as suggested above. You could easily go to 80F without damaging the beer, since you're roughly 7.5 weeks past the actively reproducing phase. Adding more yeast won't help; by this time they've built the population up enough to ferment what's there. Moving it to secondary before it's done fermenting will probably just stress the yeast more, since you'd have far fewer yeast to deal with those 9%ABV conditions.
 
You say it's in secondary? That means you are off the bulk of the yeast. You can leave it where it is for a good while yeat.

What yeast? 52 is way too low for just about all ale yeasts. Most Belgian yeasts like the 70s. I just used Duvel yeast, where I ran it up into the 80s after several days to get it to finish.

Warm it up into the 70s and see what happens before doing anything.
 
I suggested those yeast because they are aggressive. You've created a hostile environment.

As kingwood-kid is eluding to, there are a few factors that are at play here. Get that temp up for at least a few days and check your gravity. If it drops, you've simply put your yeast to sleep and they woke up again.

If the gravity doesn't move, rack it, and get some strong yeast in there to finish it out.
 
kingwood-kid said:
Are you sure it's still fermenting and not just off-gassing? After 8 weeks, any saccharomyces-only brew should be done fermenting. If it really is still actively fermenting, raise the temp as suggested above. You could easily go to 80F without damaging the beer, since you're roughly 7.5 weeks past the actively reproducing phase. Adding more yeast won't help; by this time they've built the population up enough to ferment what's there. Moving it to secondary before it's done fermenting will probably just stress the yeast more, since you'd have far fewer yeast to deal with those 9%ABV conditions.
Click to expand...

No, I am not sure it's actively fermenting... It very well could be just off gassing now that you mention it because I can see lots of little bubbles sliding up the side of the carboy that is adding to what I thought was krausen but it could be just the result of off gassing

What should I do to determine this and what are my next steps?
 
KeystoneHomebrew said:
I suggested those yeast because they are aggressive. You've created a hostile environment.

As kingwood-kid is eluding to, there are a few factors that are at play here. Get that temp up for at least a few days and check your gravity. If it drops, you've simply put your yeast to sleep and they woke up again.

If the gravity doesn't move, rack it, and get some strong yeast in there to finish it out.
Click to expand...

Ok, thank you!
 
Most typical wyeast belgian strains have an apparent attenuation of 73-78%, and an optimum fermentation temperature range of 64-76F. Typically the lower attenuation percentages are associated to the lower temperatures while the higher attenuations are associated with higher temperatures; of course your mash temperature will have an influence on this as well, as will your fermentation temperature schedule. Based on your gravities, you're currently sitting at about 75.3% attenuation which is in the lower half of the proper AA rates for most typical wyeast strains. A 78% AA would yield a FG of ~1.018. The point is that you are in the correct range of attenuation for most typical wyeast belgian strains. Increasing your fermenter temperature might just help it finish up but you are letting a high alcohol brew sit on stressed yeast for quite a while already. If you don't like the current outcome of your brew then you can definitely use more/other yeast to _hopefully_ get it to attenuate a bit more.

Edit: I assume you're doing a golden strong or dark strong based on your starting gravity? The former would want to get a bit lower (1.016) while the latter is fine right where it's at (1.021-1.022).
 
Before you even ponder dumping it or adding more yeast, how does it taste? As Stpug said, you're pretty close to what your final gravity should be, unless your recipe used a ton of sugar or your belgian yeast is a mixed culture.
 
stpug said:
Most typical wyeast belgian strains have an apparent attenuation of 73-78%, and an optimum fermentation temperature range of 64-76F. Typically the lower attenuation percentages are associated to the lower temperatures while the higher attenuations are associated with higher temperatures; of course your mash temperature will have an influence on this as well, as will your fermentation temperature schedule. Based on your gravities, you're currently sitting at about 75.3% attenuation which is in the lower half of the proper AA rates for most typical wyeast strains. A 78% AA would yield a FG of ~1.018. The point is that you are in the correct range of attenuation for most typical wyeast belgian strains. Increasing your fermenter temperature might just help it finish up but you are letting a high alcohol brew sit on stressed yeast for quite a while already. If you don't like the current outcome of your brew then you can definitely use more/other yeast to _hopefully_ get it to attenuate a bit more.

Edit: I assume you're doing a golden strong or dark strong based on your starting gravity? The former would want to get a bit lower (1.016) while the latter is fine right where it's at (1.021-1.022).
Click to expand...

I am doing a La fin du monde clone, I would assume that is the golden strong ale, in which case I may just let this thing warm up for a few days to see if there is any increased activity... If there is not, it sounds like it finished in the correct range.

I will condition in the Keg if it's good to go

Thank again... I really do appreciate it!
 
Fredderick said:
I am doing a La fin du monde clone, I would assume that is the golden strong ale, in which case I may just let this thing warm up for a few days to see if there is any increased activity... If there is not, it sounds like it finished in the correct range.

I will condition in the Keg if it's good to go

Thank again... I really do appreciate it!
Click to expand...

La fin du monde is a tripel.
 
Fredderick said:
No, I am not sure it's actively fermenting... It very well could be just off gassing now that you mention it because I can see lots of little bubbles sliding up the side of the carboy that is adding to what I thought was krausen but it could be just the result of off gassing

What should I do to determine this and what are my next steps?
Click to expand...
Is it cloudy like the yeast are still in suspension or has it dropped clear?
 
.. The temp is 52 and the original gravity was 1.091
Click to expand...

This is your problem. The yeast got way too cold and quit.

Chris White says of Belgian Yeasts..... "When you cool them, they stop. They go into survival mode. You can try rousing them, raising the temperature, but they won't start again. You just have to add new yeast."

This is a direct quote from BLAM pg. 184.

Since it comes straight from the horses mouth, I would believe it.

If you want it to drop any lower, you are going to have to add more yeast. You can try making a starter with 3711. I have never had a stck ferment but WYeast suggests that 3711 can be used to get a fermentation going again. I have used 3711 a lot and know that it will chow through just about anything.

YEAST STRAIN: 3711**|**French Saison

Back to Yeast Strain List

A very versatile strain that produces Saison or farmhouse style beers as well as other Belgian style beers that are highly aromatic (estery), peppery, spicy and citrusy. This strain enhances the use of spices and aroma hops, and is extremely attenuative but leaves an unexpected silky and rich mouthfeel. This strain can also be used to re-start stuck fermentations or in high gravity beers.

Origin:
Flocculation: Low
Attenuation: 77-83%
Temperature Range: 65-77F 18-25C
Alcohol Tolerance: ABV 12%
Styles:
***Belgian Blond Ale
***Belgian Dark Strong Ale
***Belgian Golden Strong Ale
***Belgian Specialty Ale
***Bière de Garde
***Saison
Click to expand...
 
No starter for a 1.091 brew, kept at 52F, believes its still fermenting after 8 weeks...OK.

Did you ever have this problem with an England Barelywine?
 
beergolf said:
This is your problem. The yeast got way too cold and quit.

Chris White says of Belgian Yeasts..... "When you cool them, they stop. They go into survival mode. You can try rousing them, raising the temperature, but they won't start again. You just have to add new yeast."

This is a direct quote from BLAM pg. 184.

Since it comes straight from the horses mouth, I would believe it.

If you want it to drop any lower, you are going to have to add more yeast. You can try making a starter with 3711. I have never had a stck ferment but WYeast suggests that 3711 can be used to get a fermentation going again. I have used 3711 a lot and know that it will chow through just about anything.
Click to expand...

I let it warm a bit and if that doesn't help I may pitch the recommended yeast.

Thanks
 
g-star said:
No starter for a 1.091 brew, kept at 52F, believes its still fermenting after 8 weeks...OK.

Did you ever have this problem with an England Barelywine?
Click to expand...

England Barleywine? I hope youre poking fun at the title of this being Belgium brew, instead of Belgian.

Anyways, yeah. Live and learn. Liquid yeast ALWAYS get a starter. At 1.091 OG, you need A LOT of healthy yeast. Sounds like you've been making them unhappy. Your beer will probably be fine but not nearly as good as it could have been.
 
bknifefight said:
England Barleywine? I hope youre poking fun at the title of this being Belgium brew, instead of Belgian.

Anyways, yeah. Live and learn. Liquid yeast ALWAYS get a starter. At 1.091 OG, you need A LOT of healthy yeast. Sounds like you've been making them unhappy. Your beer will probably be fine but not nearly as good as it could have been.
Click to expand...

I guess those jokes only work if someone knows it's a joke... Me... I didn't know it was a joke.

Thanks for the input... I hacked on the carboy after it had warmed a bit and nothing had changed... It's not far off but there is a ton of alcohol in this thing that I will see it through to the end... Only a few more months of conditioning this
 

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