Start Grav = 1.062, Current Grav = 1.040, now what?

Belgian Dubbel Ale - All Grain
Starting gravity at 1.062 on Saturday, a bit below expected of 1.066 - 1.072. Fermentation like mad on Sunday. No action Monday or Tuesday. Checked gravity on Tuesday and it is 1.040. What to do?

10.00 lb Pale Malt (2 Row) Bel (3.0 SRM) Grain 83.33 %
0.50 lb Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM) Grain 4.17 %
0.50 lb Caramunich Malt (56.0 SRM) Grain 4.17 %
1.00 oz Styrian Goldings [5.40 %] (60 min) Hops 17.8 IBU
1.00 oz Saaz [4.00 %] (5 min) (Aroma Hop-Steep) Hops -
0.25 tsp Irish Moss (Boil 10.0 min) Misc
1.00 tsp Yeast Nutrient (Primary 0.0 days) Misc
1.00 lb Candi Sugar, Amber (75.0 SRM) Sugar 8.33 %
1 Pkgs SafBrew Ale (DCL Yeast #S-33) Yeast-Ale

Did you have a yeast starter? Also, what temps did you pitch at, ferment at, etc?

pitch a belgian ale yeast with a small amount of 1.040 wort starter or higher or thats at least what i would do. if your not crazy about that and someones gonna tell you otherwise but you can sanitize your racking cane and stir the yeast up to get them working again

also just because there is no action does not mean its not still fermenting as long as the gravity does not stay the same for 3-4 days straight it can still be going

Thanks for the replies.

I did not use a yeast starter. Dry yeast on top of the wort then stirred in and shaken hard. Mixed well.
Temps for all aspects of pitching and fermenting have been in the 73F range.

I will check the gravity again to see if it is off of the 1.040. If not, I will pitch again, I suppose.

This fermentation started on Sunday, and you're worried about what the gravity is on Tuesday??!!

WHOOOOAAAAAA THERE BUDDY!!!!!!!!!!!

Give it a couple more weeks at least and then see what gravity it is at. No need worrying about those final gravity points right now, especially since you can't be there at every second to watch the airlock bubble!

Mr. Malty sez you should have pitched 1.1 package of a 11g yeast pack or 2.5 packages of 5g yeast pack for that OG.

So either you slightly underpitched (if you used a 11g yeast pack) or you really underpitched (if you used a 5g yeast pack).

In addition, dumping the dry yeast on top of the wort without properly rehydrating probably also hurt your initial yeast viability which means you now have definitely underpitched (for 11g pack) or really, REALLY underpitched (5g yeast pack).

Yea I gotta agree with broadbill, you didnt pitch nearly enough yeast. And Im not horribly fond of dry yeast to begin with. While the bubbler is not a great gauge for fermentation activity, on day 3-4 you should see SOMETHING as the CO2 output should be fairly high for all of that sugar being consumed.

Its not too late to pitch more yeast, it just has to be the EXACT same strain or you'll tweak the flavor for better or for worse. And this time, get an extremely sanitized bottle or growler and throw in one cup of DME and one cup of water thats been boiled for about 5-10 minutes. Once its cooled (use your fridge), throw the yeast powder in there and shake it and let it grow. Once the yeast has multiplied, I would re-pitch. Its not a great practice to throw an additional yeast in after this much time, but it shouldn't hurt the beer worse than having the sugar content of maple syrup when its done!

Thanks again for the replies. I do admit I may be a bit anxious about the gravity as this is my first experience with a brew that has behaved in this manner. And I have not worked with a gravity this high before.

I did initially pitch an 11g pack of yeast. My experience so far has been that it has worked out dry. But I understand that rehydrating first should be a better method and will change my ways.

I do have another pack of the same yeast on hand but will hold in reserve.
I do have 4 oz of DME which I will also hold.

I believe there is some activity in the way of CO2 production since the bubbler has changed levels somewhat over several hours - though not detectable by watching for several minutes.

With your inputs and some patience I will give it some more time. Besides, I have two other batches (one aging in keg and one in secondary) awaiting.

Thanks.

Dry yeast will work out just fine, don't worry. Did you lose temp in the fermenter. My garage is 100 during the day and 50 at night. That will slow her down a bit. If you mashed too high, then you might also have a problem.

Make sure that you give it at least a week until you start worrying. Though my ferments typically are finished in three to five days, if you don't have your process down, then you might run into a couple of problems along the way.

Everything went well through mashing on into the primary. Hit temps, etc. Once in the primary, temp has been virtually constant at 73F.

I, too, am used to fermentation being pretty much done in 3-5 days. Not on this one though. And the day of fermentation I had was, well, violent. Had to remove the airlock and plug in a blowoff since it blew all the liquid out of the airlock. I went back to the airlock once it calmed down.

My MLT is the ever popular 5 gallon Igloo converted. My experience with it has been very good relative to holding temperatures.

If it doesn't work out you could always do something like this
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/what-call-cider-blend-123845/

nebben said:

This fermentation started on Sunday, and you're worried about what the gravity is on Tuesday??!!

WHOOOOAAAAAA THERE BUDDY!!!!!!!!!!!

Give it a couple more weeks at least and then see what gravity it is at. No need worrying about those final gravity points right now, especially since you can't be there at every second to watch the airlock bubble!

Click to expand...

And the winner is!!!!

This is the answer...PATIENCE.

You are making a big beer...and that means, especially since you under pitched, the yeast will need more time to do their job....

A 30 point drop in 4 days on a big beer....is perfectly fine. Especially if the yeast lagged a bit before starting.

Lazy llama said it best...



Whether it is how long something will take to ferment, to clear, to carb and to condition, the answer is the same..the bigger the beer, the longer it takes....

You know, I have seriously underpitched with dry yeast. I did one packet on a 1.080 beer and it finished out in three days. The beer might be hanging in a room that is 73*, but it will heat up as it ferments. I just did up 10 gals of beer and ferment in a 62* room, but the beer was fermenting at 69*. If you are at 73-75*ambient, then you most likely are in the high 70's to low eighties. That is pretty warm and your yeast might need a little bit more oxygen. I had problems with my Belgian yeast even though I had it at a very constant 75* fermenting (not outside air temp). I didn't give it enough air as it fermented and it stalled out at 1.022 when I wanted 1.010. Oxygen is the yeasts friend. It will not harm your beer as long as it is fermenting.

If it were my beer and you are worried, I would open the top, and give it a little blow to get a bit of oxygen into it. Then close it and shake it a bit. If it is going to finish, then it will. If not, then you are going to need to figure out a better way to ferment.

At 10.40 you already have BEER in there, I would NOT blow on it, or and any oxygen if it has been over 12 hours after yeast pitching...unless you want 5 gallons of wet cardboard???

The only data I have come across about post yeast pitch oxygen adding is in really HUGE beers (1.060 don't cut it.) and that is 2 minutes of oxygen within 12 hours of yeast pitch...no later....

You can give the fermenter a little shake to re-agitate any yeast...but make sure it is only co2 in there and not o2....if it is in a bucket, push down on the lid to void out any air.

But honestly, whether matt got his fermented in 3 days is really irrelvelent, every fermentation is different....your is fine for where it is at..this is not a horserace.

The more I look at the recipe, the more I say that he didn't oxygenate enough at the beginning and I think that the yeast aren't happy in there. We aren't talking about me for sure and how my ferments go are irrelavant. However, if we are problem solving here, I think O2 is needed and Revvy thinks time.

What makes you think you will get wet cardboard while it is still fermenting? After it is finished fermenting, I could understand that since then is will it will start oxidizing. While the yeast is still going though, there is no worry about oxidizing your beer. Otherwise all of these guys doing the Utopias, DFH 120 and Dark Lord are all going to have cardboard beer since they are hitting the beer as it ferments with O2. Same goes with bottle conditioning.

Matt Up North said:

The more I look at the recipe, the more I say that he didn't oxygenate enough at the beginning and I think that the yeast aren't happy in there. We aren't talking about me for sure and how my ferments go are irrelavant. However, if we are problem solving here, I think O2 is needed and Revvy thinks time.

What makes you think you will get wet cardboard while it is still fermenting? After it is finished fermenting, I could understand that since then is will it will start oxidizing. While the yeast is still going though, there is no worry about oxidizing your beer. Otherwise all of these guys doing the Utopias, DFH 120 and Dark Lord are all going to have cardboard beer since they are hitting the beer as it ferments with O2. Same goes with bottle conditioning.

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Because after four days there is enough beer in there already to oxydize....It is a 1.040 beer right now.....

And didn't you see in my post where I mentiond BIG beers?

His beer isn't that big....and yeah any oxydation would be masked and or contribute to the strong flavor...and again more than likey all those guys did it within the first 12 hours of yeast pitching since more than likely they got the idea from the same talk with Chris White of Whitelabs or Logsdon at wyyeast who brought up the "shocking" when it was presented a few years back, at one of the conferences, idea of adding ANY oxygen after yeast pitch......That was quite a scandal in the community to even consider that...I think I might have even been the first one to have even brought it up on here....

If I recall the beginning "safety range" for post yeast pitching oxygenation was over 1.070.

I was wrong about one thing...10.60 was considered the "safe range" but the discussion is still only within the first 12 hours after yeast pitching...took me awhile but I found the info I had posted...

Revvy said:

I just heard it last week on Basic Brewing radio...It was in the NHC follow up. Shocked the crap out of me when I heard it...

It was during the I-view with Chris White from White Labs.

Considering he makes the yeasts, methinks he'd know.

July 3, 2008 - NHC Wrapup Pt. 1
Steve joins James as they begin their collection of interviews gathered from experts at the National Homebrewers Conference in Cincinnati. This week: Dave Wills, Michael Ferguson and Chris White.
http://media.libsyn.com/media/basicbrewing/bbr07-03-08nhcwrapup01.mp3

It's about 3/4's of the way into the I-view...

Considering he says that we need 10-12 PPM's of oxygen for good fermentation and vigorous shaking is only good for 2 ppm's, hitting a stuck fermentation @ under 10-12 hours with a minute of O2 may be may be just the thing. Especially for really big beers.

New info comes out all the time...Even John Palmer has gone back on what he wrote about IBU's after going to a confrence on hops....And a lot of the stuff we come to believe as 'conventional wisdom' is wrong anyway, yet we perpetuate it...

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It was a good discussion here;

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/adding-oxygen-during-fermentation-71456/

I'm all for a post yeast pitch blast of O2....but BEFORE it begins to turn into real beer......within the first 12 hours...but with already a 20 point drop in gravity, I still maintain that you don't want too much o2 exposure now...

Flyguy gives a good elaboration on it...

FlyGuy said:

This is an accepted practice, but specific to high gravity beers and only before active fermentation begins (typically within the first 12 to 18 hours). When the yeast are still in their lag/growth phase, they need a lot of oxygen, and it is hard to get enough into solution in a high gravity brew, even with an oxygenation setup. But if you add it in two 'doses' you can get a lot more into solution. Since the yeast are are actively metabolizing O2 in the lag and growth phase, all of that O2 will get scavenged quickly, provided you do it before they hit active fermentation. If timed correctly, there is little worry of oxidation.

Click to expand...

We are beyond lag now...

...and again more than likey all those guys did it within the first 12 hours of yeast pitching

Click to expand...

Are you talking about the guys doing the 1.150-1.200 beers?

Again, this is what I would do if it were mine. It isn't though, so it is up to the OP to take another reading and also make the final decision as to wait, repitch, shake, or whatever.

Good luck to him

Here's more of the info from the original thread....

FlyGuy said:

But recognize that introducing oxygen to your beer BEFORE fermentation happens is totally different than AFTER fermentation. It is hard to over-oxygenate before, but not after. But I agree with you that a little bit of aeration during racking isn't something to get overly worried about.

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YooperBrew said:

Chris had graphs and everything at the NHC where he talked about this. He did say several times that he was talking only about high gravity beers. The charts and the graphs showed very little difference in the end FG's, except for the higher SG and more oxygenated worts. Those tended to be much lower in FG with the same wort, same yeast, etc. He mentioned that you still don't want to aerate after fermentation- this extra burst of o2 comes in approx 12 hours into the fermentation, still in the lag phase.

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So if you have a 20 point drop in gravity, you are no longer in lag phase...you are in fermentation...and even the "horses mouth on yeast" David White...says you don't give beer any more o2 exposure after the lag phase in complete..

So that's why if it were my beer, I sure as heck wouldn't.

The Op's got some info now..so it's their choice.

I for one wouldn't even worry for another week...then I would look at some of the other means of bringing it down....raising the temp a bit, or perhaps yeast hulls, or krausen from another beer (Evan!'s method) or yeast energizer or more yeast...but not more o2

I for one wouldn't even worry for another week...then I would look at some of the other means of bringing it down....raising the temp a bit, or perhaps yeast hulls, or krausen from another beer (Evan!'s method) or yeast energizer or more yeast...but not more o2

Click to expand...

The original recipe shows yeast nutrient added. Also he has been fermenting hot enough, if not too hot. Yeast hulls are to strip out the bad byproducts of the yeast, which could be useful if the ferment has stalled, though I don't think with a mere 2%abv and very little time fermenting there will be much bad stuff in the beer.

I think you are worrying too much about oxygen during fermentation. You have made wine before if I remember correctly. You push the cap into the wine for color, oxygenation and release of CO2. If we do this in beer all of a sudden it is bad beer?

Interesting fermentation going here!

An update.... Yesterday, I pulled the airlock, quickly covered the stopper, and shook the heck out of the bucket. (There was a nice krausen(?) on top.) Of course this caused a rush of CO2 when unstopping but immediately re-inserted the airlock. I pressed down on the lid to push out more CO2 but not enough to suck the liquid back into the bucket. Since then there has been evidence of fermentation by the changing levels in the airlock. I would guess it bubbles once every hour or two. So, the fermentation appears to be going but slower than I ever recall (having probably done 10 brews in my life and wine once.)

I suppose I will still transfer to the secondary in a couple more days (I need the bucket) and will recheck the gravity then and let it finish (as much as it will) in the secondary.

I can't argue with needing the bucket, but personally I'd leave it there for at least 10-14 days before transferring it. If you end up adding more dry yeast, I would definitely not make a starter. I can't think of any that instruct us to do anything but rehydrate the little guys and I even remember Jamil talking about how dry yeast starters deplete some of the reserves they have when they are packaged, which actually lowers your cell count.

Also, next time try just rousing the yeast. I think it was revvy who gave me the technique: tilt the fermenter so it can pivot on its bottom rim and roll it along that rim in a half circle. The point is just to re-suspend the yeast; you don't need to shake it.

And if you make another dubbel, try dosing the beer with the candi sugar at high krausen to prevent your gravity from finishing too high. This is another piece of Jamil advice. Apparently, the yeast will consume the very simple sugars first and poop out before they get all the way through the more complex wort you made for them. If they start on the wort and you add the candi sugar (boiled and cooled) into the fermenter as the feeding frenzy is tapering off, you'll get better attenuation.

An update.....

Now almost two weeks later and there is still fermentation. The airlock bubbles maybe twice an hour but it is still active. I have not checked the gravity.

Though I wanted to move to secondary, I am going to have to leave it for at least another week since I have to travel. But, I still have time to make the transfer if anyone thinks that is the best thing to do (though I don't know why). I believe I will give the bucket a roll and leave it alone before I leave. And I am planning to move it to a spot where the temp is nearer 70F.

(I got another bucket so that is not an issue.)

It appears from this thread (and probably others) that the first 10-12 hours is a meaningful period with regards to fermentation start and the opportunity (or need) to add O2. In my original post I indicated brew on Saturday, fermentation on Sunday. I brewed two beers on Saturday with this one being the second and finishing up close to midnight. So, I think the fermentation likely began within the first 10-12 hours.

When was the last time you pulled a sample?
If you have the space and are not worried about about it, let it wait until you come back, will not hurt anything

Tim

When I first started, I would check gravity at 5 and 7 days and just automatically move it over to my secondary. Granted, it seemed like Nottingham in extract batches seemed to do it's thing quickly and just drive on.

Now a days, doing all grain and using starters, I only check the basement to see if I need to change my airlock to a blow off tube and don't bother checking gravity until 7 days the minimum, usually 10 days. I'll move to a secondary sometime between 7 and 14 days (sometimes some of this is out of laziness or lack of time).

Like one of the repliers said patience is the best rule of thumb. Next batch, make sure your temperature in the room holds steady. 73 degree ambient temperature seems a hair high, because (like someone else said as well) the temperature of your fermentation will be a couple of degrees higher. Also, just make sure you wait a couple of days before you worry about it starting fermentation (at least 48 hours is what I see around here). I wouldn't bother checking gravity until at least 7 days after you pitched, as well.

Is there a rule of thumb to determine how much dry yeast to pitch ?
In other words when is OG high enough to pitch more than one 5g pack or more ?

Return from near dead.

I moved the primary to a 70F space. I twisted it gently back and forth several times as well to stir it a bit. This was two days ago.

Today, fermentation is lively at about 5-6 bubbles in the airlock per minute. I will check the gravity in a week.

You can't check the gravity now? A week won't hurt it, but neither will checking the gravity

Gravity check will have to wait until I return to NC from CA. About a week. I will post.

Today I transferred to secondary. Gravity was down to 1.030. I suppose time is my ally on this one.

I have the opposite problem. I brewed a triple using jaggery in place of candi sugar. Using a White Labs Belgian strain and mashing at 148ish, it attenuated from 1070 to 1007.

Two more weeks have passed. Gravity is still at 1.030. What are my options?

I've had success using champagne yeast when I didn't quite hit my final gravity. You might be able to get 5 to 10 points out of it and finish in the 1.020 area...

if you have another packet of yeast you could always pitch that I guess.
What was your mash temp? The higher the temp the more unfermentable sugar you have, so your gravity will be a bit higher. ( I think this is right).

I am still pretty new to this homebrewing stuff, but I would either transfer and call it good or pitch another pack of yeast if it were mine.

Tim