BIAB Question

My question relates to efficiency of different methods.

From my reading, there seems to be predominantly 3 BIAB methods employed.

1. Mash for 60mins in lower volumes of water much like conventional 3V brewing then dunk sparge for 10 mins in separate vessel with the balance of the water.

2. Dispense with the sparge completely and just mash in the full volume of water for around 90mins.

3. Mash in full volume of water for 60mins then do a mash out at say 170°F for 10mins.

Obviously if one has size of pot restraints they may choose method 1. above.

Is efficiency the only likely difference?
Which is likely to consistently produce the better efficiency?

1) Is basically "deconstructed" single batch sparging. It probably stands the best chance of high efficiency, since you are rinsing grain with fresh water, so you'll collect more sugar by not diluting the "first runnings". Your wort holdup will be of the more dilute "sparge" water, so you'll get more sugar in the pot.

2 and 3 are basically the same, only there's a mashout in #3. With both, you have a theoretical efficiency limit of 70-75%, based on a simple calculation of absorbed/held up wort at target preboil SG. #3 might be slightly better, as there might be a bit less holdup in the grain since the wort will be a BIT more fluid and less sticky, but honestly it will probably be operator/system differences that change efficiency between 2 and 3.

I use the first method, not because of size restraints, but because of efficiency.

I no longer measure my efficiency when brewing... but when I did I got 80+ percent efficiency with #3 each time.

Your mileage may vary depending on your equipment, etc.

Seven said:

I no longer measure my efficiency when brewing... but when I did I got 80+ percent efficiency with #3 each time.

Your mileage may vary depending on your equipment, etc.

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+1 on #3.

Once at 168-170 I pull the bag without waiting 10 minutes. Squeezing the bag is important too for efficiency sake, 80+ all the time. Squeeze it dry, if you can. Squeezing is allowed on #3.

I use option 3 all the time and if my crush is proper, I hit 83% typically (across four batches since getting a proper mill).

I've tried adding a dunk sparge in some additional water and that didn't pull anything else out so I don't bother with that.

I do squeeze the grain bag like it's going out of style though, and sometimes do this without doing a mashout, you can squeeze on anything...

I use #1, but use a higher volume of water than traditional (about 2-2.5qt/lb) and dunk sparge in the balance. Hit 83% on the last 2. Hopefully that stays consistent. Only reason I measure efficiency is so my recipes can be consistent batch to batch.

I used #1 last time I brewed and hit only 60%. I will try #3 next time. I always thought squeezing the grains was a no-no due to funky flavors being released by squeezing. Is this not true? Is that hops I'm thinking of?

Thanks for any insight you can offer...

Xaphoeous said:

I used #1 last time I brewed and hit only 60%. I will try #3 next time. I always thought squeezing the grains was a no-no due to funky flavors being released by squeezing. Is this not true? Is that hops I'm thinking of?

Thanks for any insight you can offer...

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I think you're referring to tannin extraction from squeezing, but I'm pretty sure that's been debunked by quite a few BIAB'ers. Not sure of all the science behind tannin extraction, but squeezing is common practice with BIAB, and lots of good beers are brewed with it.

Squeezing grain or hops is fine. Tannin is more of a temp/ph issue. Squeeze on!

#1 for me and 80-83%. There is definitely a fair amount of sugar in that sparge water, and I'm not going to mess with the process by eliminating that step.

I figure I get a little more efficiency with the dunk sparge (maybe 5-10%). I don't really lose any time either, since it takes awhile for the kettle to start boiling. As soon as I lift the grains out to sparge, I crank the propane on the kettle. It's usually ~ 200 F by the time I combine the sparge water with the mash 10 minutes later. Another 5-10 minutes and the whole thing is boiling away.

I don't see how a dunk would change anything. Some people claim and increase in efficiency but other factor can influence a couple of points. The whole reason you don't "sparge" in BIAB is because you are actually sparing at the same time that you are resting and mashing out.

pianobrew said:

I don't see how a dunk would change anything. Some people claim and increase in efficiency but other factor can influence a couple of points. The whole reason you don't "sparge" in BIAB is because you are actually sparing at the same time that you are resting and mashing out.

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*sparging

Plus (sorry for the multiple threads), the whole idea of BIAB is one vessel brewing.

pianobrew said:

Plus (sorry for the multiple threads), the whole idea of BIAB is one vessel brewing.

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Not sure that is really the whole idea of BIAB. Personally I wonder if GIAB (Grain in a Bag) Brewing might be more appropriate name.

Interestingly of the responses so far none have indicated that they have used #2 method which is one that the BIABrewer.info site suggests (Mini BIAB method).

So far it seems method #1 is more commonly used than #3 with both reporting efficiencies in excess of 80% being achieved.

I have only ever used method #1 (due to equipment restraints) and unfortunately did not calculate efficiency. Having just obtained a larger pot I now have the option of using method #2 or #3 and that is why I am curious to know what others are doing and what efficiency they get.

i use a bag/mash method. i use one of my bottling buckets install sparge bag, add grain, mix in mash water, mix, mix, mix. Then wrap with a balanket for the 60 minutes. Mixing probably twice. Then draining off and sparging. This way u move into batch sparging fairly easy and cheapliy. With my own mill and this method I get a 83% efficency. And no squeezing the bag or holding it up. Actually twist top of bag and wrap around handle. What i have left I use for starter on next batch.

el_caro said:

Interestingly of the responses so far none have indicated that they have used #2 method which is one that the BIABrewer.info site suggests (Mini BIAB method).

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Certainly #3 is the cat's meow based on the 'Master Guide' and Pat's interview (podcast), if you don't have limitations.

Mini, Maxi or any variation thereof works. Which do you use?

jlachesk said:

I think you're referring to tannin extraction from squeezing, but I'm pretty sure that's been debunked by quite a few BIAB'ers. Not sure of all the science behind tannin extraction, but squeezing is common practice with BIAB, and lots of good beers are brewed with it.

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Ah, thank you for the reply! I will certainly try the ol' bag-squeeze next time I brew...might even try squeezing the grain bag

Cleveland: "oh Quagmire, you're naaasty"

I was at a brig brew off the other bay. Five of us were using some sort of BIAB. the funny thing was all of us had our own way and none of us were doing it the same.

For my 2.5 gallon batches I mash in 3 gallons of water, then heat the remaining 1 gal to a little over 170 degrees and ladle it over the bag (hanging over my pot) with a small saucepan. My second pot is not big enough to dunk in. I seem to get about 70% efficiency so far

warex said:

Five of us were using some sort of BIAB. the funny thing was all of us had our own way and none of us were doing it the same.

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Did you form any conclusions about efficiency from the observing the different methods?

No. several of us didn't check OG. The two that did were adding extract to make up for too small of pots. What I thought was interesting that something as simple as mashing in a bag and then boiling wort could be done in so many different ways.

If you have your grains ground finer you'll get better efficiency, too. And since it's BIAB, there's no stuck sparge to worry about. I'm in the 90 minute mash, and squeeze like crazy.

porterguy said:

If you have your grains ground finer you'll get better efficiency, too. And since it's BIAB, there's no stuck sparge to worry about. I'm in the 90 minute mash, and squeeze like crazy.

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I have read reports about finer grain giving better efficiency.
Do you mashout or sparge? Are you a #2 method? Have you calculated % efficiency?

Well, I'm getting 99.5% conversion efficiency anyway, not much room to improve there.

a No Sparge Full Volume BIAB will get you about 83% into the boil efficiency if you squeeze the bag.

You could sparge and maybe reduce your grain requirements by half a pound or something...

But once you go no-sparge, you realize what a PITA a sparge step is

Its only when you try to do a Maxi brew that a sparge really comes into its own as you will be bumping your Into Boil efficiency from 60-70% to 80%

The BIABrewer.info method is :

1) Full Volume Mash for 90 minutes. Because the mash is thinner, it can take longer to convert
2) Mashout + Squeeze. Helps efficiency
3) Boil for 90 minutes. More boil-off gives you more Mash water which gets you more efficiency too.

This will get you about 83% Into Boil for normal gravity 5 gallon brews.

stux said:

The BIABrewer.info method is :

1) Full Volume Mash for 90 minutes. Because the mash is thinner, it can take longer to convert
2) Mashout + Squeeze. Helps efficiency
3) Boil for 90 minutes. More boil-off gives you more Mash water which gets you more efficiency too.

This will get you about 83% Into Boil for normal gravity 5 gallon brews.

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I have looked at the two examples(Ralph's) shown on BIABrewer.info an must confess I cannot see anything about a mash-out? In the second method he sparges by pouring water from a kettle over the bag into a bucket but in the first demo there is no mention of sparge or mashout.

From "The Commentary"
http://www.biabrewer.info/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=190

"After the recommended 90 minutes, our mash ends. The brewer then has two options. They can remove the bag immediately and then raise the temperature of the sweet liquor to boiling point or they can leave the bag in and perform what is known as a mashout."

el_caro said:

I have read reports about finer grain giving better efficiency.
Do you mashout or sparge? Are you a #2 method? Have you calculated % efficiency?

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I've done BIAB both mashout and sparge, but now that I finally got a bigger pot, I'm just doing a full boil (#2) to eliminate some extra steps and extra clean-up.
About 84% efficiency.

1) Full Volume Mash for 90 minutes. Because the mash is thinner, it can take longer to convert

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I question this. If I have my grain ground fine, the conversion occurs quicker than the normal mash, not slower. I mash for the full 60 minutes but there are indications that the conversion has occurred in about 15 minutes when the wort goes from cloudy to clear and tastes sweet. I should take a sample then and do an iodine test but haven't bothered picking up the iodine yet.

I've done 45, 60 & 90 minute BIAB without the slightest bit of difference, other than wasting some extra time. YMMV.

samc said:

I've done 45, 60 & 90 minute BIAB without the slightest bit of difference, other than wasting some extra time. YMMV.

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Which method were you using and what efficiency did you achieve?

Ok, I just used method 3 and was rather disappointed with the results.
52% efficiency. I have got to be doing something wrong.

Here's what I did for an oatmeal stout:
5 gallons water, heated to 175F
10 pounds of grains plus 1 pound of oats
Temp dropped to 160F with addition of grains
Mashed at 158-160F for 60 minutes
Squeezed the grain bag feverishly until I had no strength left (about 15 minutes of squeezing and draining)
Added 1 gallon of water for a total of 6, however I do not know how much water was removed by the 11 pounds of grains, so I really don't know what my boil volume was.
Boiled for 60 minutes.
OG was 1.045 with 4.5 gallons of wort, no top-up water.

Any hints, tips, or "hey moron, you forgot to [insert step]!" would be greatly appreciated!
Thanks

Xaphoeous said:

Ok, I just used method 3 and was rather disappointed with the results.
52% efficiency. I have got to be doing something wrong.

Here's what I did for an oatmeal stout:
5 gallons water, heated to 175F
10 pounds of grains plus 1 pound of oats
Temp dropped to 160F with addition of grains
Mashed at 158-160F for 60 minutes
Squeezed the grain bag feverishly until I had no strength left (about 15 minutes of squeezing and draining)
Added 1 gallon of water for a total of 6, however I do not know how much water was removed by the 11 pounds of grains, so I really don't know what my boil volume was.
Boiled for 60 minutes.
OG was 1.045 with 4.5 gallons of wort, no top-up water.

Any hints, tips, or "hey moron, you forgot to [insert step]!" would be greatly appreciated!
Thanks

Click to expand...

I wonder if it was not the method but rather that your mash temperature was too high resulting in more un-fermentable sugars?

Xaphoeous said:

Ok, I just used method 3 and was rather disappointed with the results.
52% efficiency. I have got to be doing something wrong.

Here's what I did for an oatmeal stout:
5 gallons water, heated to 175F
10 pounds of grains plus 1 pound of oats
Temp dropped to 160F with addition of grains
Mashed at 158-160F for 60 minutes
Squeezed the grain bag feverishly until I had no strength left (about 15 minutes of squeezing and draining)
Added 1 gallon of water for a total of 6, however I do not know how much water was removed by the 11 pounds of grains, so I really don't know what my boil volume was.
Boiled for 60 minutes.
OG was 1.045 with 4.5 gallons of wort, no top-up water.

Any hints, tips, or "hey moron, you forgot to [insert step]!" would be greatly appreciated!
Thanks

Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure the Australian site always recommends 90 minute mash, and 90 minute boil.

Xaphoeous said:

Ok, I just used method 3 and was rather disappointed with the results.
52% efficiency. I have got to be doing something wrong.

Here's what I did for an oatmeal stout:
5 gallons water, heated to 175F
10 pounds of grains plus 1 pound of oats
Temp dropped to 160F with addition of grains
Mashed at 158-160F for 60 minutes
Squeezed the grain bag feverishly until I had no strength left (about 15 minutes of squeezing and draining)
Added 1 gallon of water for a total of 6, however I do not know how much water was removed by the 11 pounds of grains, so I really don't know what my boil volume was.
Boiled for 60 minutes.
OG was 1.045 with 4.5 gallons of wort, no top-up water.

Any hints, tips, or "hey moron, you forgot to [insert step]!" would be greatly appreciated!
Thanks

Click to expand...

#3 is mash with "full volume of water". You had 5 gallons water for 11 lb grain. Grain typically removes 0.1-0.2 gallons per lb. So, your 11 lbs removed, say, 11 * 0.15 = 1.65 gal, putting you down around 3.5 gallons of runnings. You added 1 gal of water to get up to 4.5 gallons...

How you ended up with only 4.5 gallons post boil escapes me. But adding water to get up to a boil volume, (without even "sparging" the water through the grains), will KILL your efficiency into the fermenter.

Only thing I know is, if you're doing #3, you should have a lot more water....like 7.5-8 gallons water. If you want 5 gallons in the end, and you boil off 1 gallon, and your grain absorbs 1.5 gallons, (and assuming a 0.5 gallon trub loss from the BK), that's 5 + 1 + 1.5 + 0.5 = 8 gallons.

I start with 6.5 gallons of water for a five gallon batch and hit five gallons post-boil on the nuts about every time with BiaB. Grain absorption is not that great with BiaB since you can squeeze/drain a lot of the wort out from the spent grains.

I generally get 68%-72% brew house efficiency pretty consistently, higher with lighter grain bills and lower with heavier bills. I dump everything from the BK into the fermentor to save that extra 1/2 gallon or so. That break material makes for good yeast nutrients if you ask me.

pvtschultz said:

I start with 6.5 gallons of water for a five gallon batch and hit five gallons post-boil on the nuts about every time with BiaB. Grain absorption is not that great with BiaB since you can squeeze/drain a lot of the wort out from the spent grains.

I generally get 68%-72% brew house efficiency pretty consistently, higher with lighter grain bills and lower with heavier bills. I dump everything from the BK into the fermentor to save that extra 1/2 gallon or so. That break material makes for good yeast nutrients if you ask me.

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Which of the 3 methods best describes the way you BIAB?
1. Mash for 60mins in lower volumes of water much like conventional 3V brewing then dunk sparge for 10 mins in separate vessel with the balance of the water.

2. Dispense with the sparge completely and just mash in the full volume of water for around 90mins.

3. Mash in full volume of water for 60mins then do a mash out at say 170°F for 10mins.

el_caro said:

Which of the 3 methods best describes the way you BIAB?
1. Mash for 60mins in lower volumes of water much like conventional 3V brewing then dunk sparge for 10 mins in separate vessel with the balance of the water.

2. Dispense with the sparge completely and just mash in the full volume of water for around 90mins.

3. Mash in full volume of water for 60mins then do a mash out at say 170°F for 10mins.

Click to expand...

Really none of the above. I mash in to the full volume if I have room in the pot for all the water plus the grain. If I have too large of a grain bill I will reduce the amount of water so it will all fit and then do a pour through sparge when I remove the grain to get to the full volume. If your grain is crushed or ground fine enough you certainly do not need a 90 minute mash. I have never used a mash out as I squeeze the bag of grain to get all the possible wort out and with the recipes I use there isn't any need to mash out. The wort remains in the original pot and is brought to boil as soon as possible which denatures the enzymes.

sparge that water with the extra gallon. It will add to your sugars

Xaphoeous said:

Ok, I just used method 3 and was rather disappointed with the results.
52% efficiency. I have got to be doing something wrong.

Here's what I did for an oatmeal stout:
5 gallons water, heated to 175F
10 pounds of grains plus 1 pound of oats
Temp dropped to 160F with addition of grains
Mashed at 158-160F for 60 minutes
Squeezed the grain bag feverishly until I had no strength left (about 15 minutes of squeezing and draining)
Added 1 gallon of water for a total of 6, however I do not know how much water was removed by the 11 pounds of grains, so I really don't know what my boil volume was.
Boiled for 60 minutes.
OG was 1.045 with 4.5 gallons of wort, no top-up water.

Any hints, tips, or "hey moron, you forgot to [insert step]!" would be greatly appreciated!
Thanks

Click to expand...

• Mashing at 158-160 F. sounds too high. Is this what the recipe called for?
• With method 3 you mash (and sparge) at the same time with the full volume of water required for your recipe. You don't add any extra water or top-up water when doing method number 3.
• To calculate brewhouse efficiency you need to know your pre-boil wort volume. How did you calculate your efficiency without this pre-boil volume info?