Do I need a yeast starter?

I am getting ready to start second batch of home brew. Last time I used an ingredient kit with a dry yeast. This time I am going with my own recipe and Wyeast 1272. Beersmith says my o.g. should be around 1.066. Do I need to do a yeast starter?

Thanks

It would be beneficial to use a starter.

You can probably "get by" without one, but no need to take the chance. Get your yeasties a nice happy start by getting 'em going early

Your beer will be better if you make a starter.

im still a fairly 'green' brewer but i have learned a think or two about the basics, one of them being starters.

i've learned (the hard way) yeast starters are good for 2 reasons:

1) making a starter lets you know before you brew if your yeast is even any good. if you pitch bad/dead yeast into a starter and it doesnt ferment - you've spared your precious ingredients and lost nothing but the yeast and a little DME.

2) fermentation takes off like rocket and also ensures full attenuation. one reason i started making starters is because earlier this year i had a batch that took 3-4 days to get started (i simply pitched the liquid yeast without making a starter) and because i couldnt leave well enough alone, i was popping the top, looking inside and screwing with the fermenter trying to get it started and ended up with a batch of ****ty beer.

since then i've always made starters and fermentation starts within hours , and i also noticed it really helps fully attenuate the beer. i didnt realize this until i actually used a starter (i wasnt using a hydrometer then either) but my non-starter batches were on the sweet-side and not attenuated fully or properly.

Thanks, I will be doing a yeast starter. I just hope my recipe turns out.

A starter will help...

Making a starter is more than beneficial; it's good brewing practice. Here's why:

The brewing industry Rule of Thumb for yeast pitching is to pitch 1 million cells per milliliter of wort per degree Plato.

"But Bob," I hear you cry. "What the hell does that mean?" Simple! Follow closely.

Every degree Plato (°P) is worth about 1.004 specific gravity. Your 1.066 wort is as close to 16.5°P as makes no difference. Applying the Rule of Thumb, you need to pitch 16.5 million cells per milliliter (ml) of wort in your fermenter.

Five US gallons is approximately 19 liters, or 19,000 ml.

Thus: 19,000 * 16,500,000 = 313,500,000,000 or 313.5 billion cells.

An XL Wyeast 'smack-pack' contains on average 100 billion cells, even when fully swelled. (For the record, a vial of White Labs is on average the same count.)

So if you were to pitch the smack-pack only, you'd need at least three smack-packs to get the right pitch rate.

See why a starter is a good idea?

Welcome to the world of yeast management!

Bob

Is this a smack pack? If it is, then, you don't need a starter as long as the yeast can handle the OG. Just read the pitching instructions on the packet of yeast.

I started my smack pack three days before brewing.

Unfortunately, that's not entirely accurate. The highest-strength wort an XL smack-pack or vial can expect to handle is approximately 1.025.

Listen, I've physically done cell counts on both sizes of Wyeast package, as well as White Labs vials, using a haemocytometer, notebook, and way too much of my free time. The most you can hope for is from the White Labs vials - 20% of the time, you get 120 billion cells. Of course, 40% of the time, you get 70 billion. But the average works out to 100 billion.

Even if you take George Fix's standard for ale worts - 0.75 million cells per °P - you still end up short, even with a wort of 1.048 (12°P)!

Numbers don't lie!

Bob

NQ3X said:

Unfortunately, that's not entirely accurate. The highest-strength wort an XL smack-pack or vial can expect to handle is approximately 1.025.

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I used Wyeast 1332 Northwest XL. On the back of the package, it said to use a starter if the OG was 1.060 or higher.

Listen, I've physically done cell counts on both sizes of Wyeast package, as well as White Labs vials, using a haemocytometer, notebook, and way too much of my free time. The most you can hope for is from the White Labs vials - 20% of the time, you get 120 billion cells. Of course, 40% of the time, you get 70 billion. But the average works out to 100 billion.

Even if you take George Fix's standard for ale worts - 0.75 million cells per °P - you still end up short, even with a wort of 1.048 (12°P)!

Numbers don't lie!

Bob

Click to expand...

The picture below was in 6 hours after pitching the above smack pack. Note: the smack pack sat out at 70 degrees for 3 days per instructions after breaking the nutrient pack.
The OG here was 1.058



24 hours

Here are the product specific instruction for his pack.




view front | view back Activator™
Activator™ Product Information and Usage
Activator™ packages are designed for direct inoculation of 5 gallons of standard* wort. Activator™ packages contain live yeast cells in a liquid slurry. This yeast slurry is packaged in an optimum condition for storage, while maintaining the ability for rapid and complete fermentation.

Activator™ packages include a sterile liquid nutrient pouch that, when “smacked”, releases its contents into the yeast slurry and “activates” the package. The available nutrients initiate the culture’s metabolism which in turn generates CO2 and causes swelling of the package. This process will reduce lag times by preparing the yeast for a healthy fermentation prior to inoculation. Activation also serves as a viability test of the culture. Expansion of the package is an indicator of healthy (viable and vital) yeast. Although beneficial, cultures do not need to be activated prior to inoculation.

Usage

The Activator™ package contains a minimum of 100 billion cells in a yeast slurry.. The Activator™ is designed to directly inoculate 5 gallons of standard strength ale wort (1.034-1.060 SG) with professional pitching rates. For lagers, we recommend inoculating the wort at warm temperatures (68-70°F/ 20-21°C), waiting for signs of fermentation, and then adjusting to the desired temperature. Alternatively, for pitching into cold conditions (34-58°F/ 1-14°C) or higher gravity wort, we recommend increasing this pitching rate. This can be achieved by pitching additional Activator™ packages or by making a starter culture. Please see the Pitch Rate section for additional information.

Instructions for the proper use of Activator™ packages:

To activate, locate and move inner packet to a corner. Place this area in palm of one hand and firmly smack package with the other hand to break inner nutrient packet. Confirm inner packet is broken.
Shake the package well to release the nutrients.
Allow package to incubate and swell for three hours or more at 70-75°F (21-24°C) or immediately direct pitch into wort.
Use sanitizing solution to sanitize the package before opening.
Shake well, open and pour Activator™ into five gallons of well-aerated or oxygenated wort at 70-75°F (21-24°C). Maintain temperature until fermentation is evident: by CO2 bubble formation, bubbling airlock or foaming on top of wort.
Adjust to desired fermentation temperature.
Full swelling of Activator™ packages is not required for their use. The contents of Activator™ packages may be direct-pitched without prior activation. Our smack pack technology is intended to be a tool for your use in determining viability, and in initiating metabolism for faster starts to fermentation.

Warranty

Our Product Warranty states that we guarantee the viability of the yeast in our Activator™ packages for 6 months from the manufacture date assuming that they have been properly shipped, stored and handled. Our superior packaging material provides 100% oxygen barrier and UV light protection making this exceptional guarantee possible. During this 6 month guaranteed shelf life, some loss of viability is to be expected. This will vary from one strain to another. Activator™ packages that are 4 months old or older may require additional time to swell after activation.

Activator™ packages will sometimes swell slightly, or moderately during shipping or later while properly stored. This is not an indication of deterioration if the package is less than 6 months old and has been properly handled. This is result of trace amounts of nutrients, still available at the time packaging, causing small amount of culture activity and CO2 production. Some strains are more prone to this than others.

We think you’ll agree our unique “Smack Pack” is preferable to all other liquid yeast packaging options to assure the success of your fermentations

impatient,

Are you just trying to be contrary for the sake of it? I've always made a starter working with liquid regardless of manufacturer marketing.

Bob's explanation is excellent; you summarily and unceremoniously pissed all over it. Meh.

flyangler18 said:

impatient,

Are you just trying to be contrary for the sake of it? I've always made a starter working with liquid regardless of manufacturer marketing.

Bob's explanation is excellent; you summarily and unceremoniously pissed all over it. Meh.

Click to expand...

Maybe, this is all for the sake of having something to do, but, this isn't rocket science.

impatient said:

I used Wyeast 1332 Northwest XL. On the back of the package, it said to use a starter if the OG was 1.060 or higher.

Click to expand...

At the risk of sounding flippant, I can tell you it's safe to drink water straight out of the Delaware River. Doesn't make it a smart thing to do!

Activator or XL smack-packs do have viable, healthy yeast. In a perfect world - where you go to Wyeast Labs and watch them fill up your smack-pack - you might find that label true. All I'm saying is the world's not perfect. Smack-packs sit in fridges for weeks if not months, they get abused during shipping, they just get old. All too often, real-world conditions mean you get too little yeast to properly inoculate five gallons of normal strength wort (~1.048), much less 1.065+.

The picture below was in 6 hours after pitching the above smack pack. Note: the smack pack sat out at 70 degrees for 3 days per instructions after breaking the nutrient pack.

Click to expand...

And I'm sure your ferment went smoothly, for your purposes. Six hours is a good lag time.

I submit you got lucky. You had a very fresh pack.

Science doesn't lie, and the science of yeast management and fermentation is straightforward. Pitching the packet only is risky. Simple as that.

For peace of mind, I always advise use of a starter if using anything other than an 11g packet of dry yeast.

Cheers,

Bob

The activator smack packs may not contain the preferred yeast cell count, but in a normal gravity beer they will still ferment out completely and taste great. Like others said though, a starter will always help, and I personally would never pitch a smack pack or vial only into a 1.066 beer.

impatient said:

Here are the product specific instruction for his pack.

Click to expand...

Thank you for demonstrating your copy-and-paste skills.

As I wrote before, my scientific investigation - supported by JZ's findings; hell, why trust me? Trust JZ! - does not support their claims.

Do you believe hair-restoration cream adverts as blindly?

Maybe, this is all for the sake of having something to do, but, this isn't rocket science.

Click to expand...

No. It's not rocket science. But it is more complicated than just dumping a packet of fluid into a bucket. At least, it should be, if we are to use good, widely-accepted brewing practices.

Bob

OK, I relent, I am sold.

Sorry if I got a bit testy.

Science....is.

Bob

P.S. I love that Churchill quote.

Bob,
While making a starter isn't necessary for dry yeast packets, is it advisable to re-hydrate dry yeast prior to pitching, or is it o.k. to cool and dump?

Hugh,

Manufacturers vary, though the two most popular manufacturers both recommend rehydration.

Fermentis, maker of yeasts like S-04 and S-05, instructs the user to rehydrate in 10 times the yeast's weight in sterile water or wort at 80F. Danstar, maker of Nottingham and Windsor (etc), recommends rehydration in the exact same manner.

I and many other brewers have successfully used dry yeast by just sprinkling it on the cooled wort, however.

Cheers,

Bob

Thanks Bob.

In defense of Wyeast and White Labs (and impatient, I guess), they expect you to pitch "warm", i.e. in a way that results in optimal conditions for replication in the wort in order to reach the type of cell counts required to ferment a sub-15 Plato beer. You'll notice that the instructions say something like "pitch and keep at 75 degrees until signs of fermentation are evident, then reduce to fermentation temperature". That's how they can make that claim - the higher temps increase the yeast metabolism and encourage them to reproduce quickly (assuming they have enough oxygen) in the 5-gal batch.

Most homebrewers do not think pitching warm is a good practice for most styles, because it increases the risk of off-flavors. Making a proper starter allows you to pitch cold and slowly ramp up the temperature without inhibiting fermentation, because you start out with plenty of yeast cells to begin with from your starter and don't have to rely on additional replication in the main batch. The risk of off-flavors is significantly reduced that way.

That said, I would still use starters even if I did pitch warm. It's just a good practice.

Yeah, I never understood that "pitching warm" thing. While that's perfectly fine in the lab, it stinks in the brewery.

I mean, can you imagine a lager beer in which the ferment started at 75F? Sheesh!

Bob

For years I have pitched just a smack pack or a vial into the wort. And it always took a day or two to get going and at least a week to finish up. So,this weekend i did a starter for the first time, and the beer finished up in about 36 hours. Take it for what it's worth, but I'll be using starters from now on. In about 5 weeks we'll see if makes difference in taste.

I'm a dry yeast brewer for the present. But I hear so many endorsements of large starters as a way of improving beer quality that I would like to eventually do so.

My concern is that the air in our house is hardly lab quality. We have pet hair, dust etc. Are sanitation/sterilization demands for making starters much higher than for handling wort and beer?

yeoldebrewer said:

I'm a dry yeast brewer for the present. But I hear so many endorsements of large starters as a way of improving beer quality that I would like to eventually do so.

My concern is that the air in our house is hardly lab quality. We have pet hair, dust etc. Are sanitation/sterilization demands for making starters much higher than for handling wort and beer?

Click to expand...

You could make the argument that you need to be slightly more sanitary since you are in effect making a batch of beer to ferment out another, meaning that even if the starter turns out fine, anything little nasties in there will be transferred to the larger batch.

I hate making starters: it requires forethought and planning (2 things I'm pretty horrible at), takes time, and adds expense to each batch. So I don't make starters any more (unless I'm making a lager), I just pitch onto the cake from a previous batch:

It took me awhile to get my system/recipes figured out (as far as matching yeast strains that are good in multiple recipes), but, for example, I use the same strain of yeast in my brown ale as I do my ESB. So I will start with a batch of mild (no starter). When this is done, I will bottle and pitch a brown ale or ESB onto the cake. I might do this one more time, then when I have a nice high cell count (but starting to push my luck generation wise) I will pitch a double ESB or something high gravity onto the cake, since a high gravity beer will pretty much ruin the yeast for future batches anyway.

It makes great beer, saves money on yeast, avoids the extra time, planning and expense of starters and yeast washing, and ensures a good cell count for each batch.

That's a pretty good plan, Mr Monkey!

If I might offer a suggestion - you're providing much, much more than "a good cell count". You're actually considerably overpitching by knocking out onto a yeast cake. In lagers, that's not so much of a problem, but with ales - even clean American styles - overpitching prevents ester formation crucial to excellent beer. In fact, I agree with JZ that knocking out onto a yeast cake makes inferior beer compared to beers fermented by pitching the appropriate amount of yeast.

Far better to harvest a proportion of that yeast cake. You don't have to wash it if you're going to use it straight away. For appropriate amounts, consult the Mr Malty Pitching Rate calculator or the Yeast Pitching article on the HBT Wiki.

This method has the added benefit of permitting ten or more generations instead of three! In my opinion, the pluses - more generations (more savings), better ferments, better beer in the package, managing yeast like a professional brewer - far outweigh the minuses - scooping yeast slurry into a sanitized Mason jar. Your mileage, of course, may vary.

Cheers!

Bob

impatient said:

Here are the product specific instruction for his pack.

...clip

The Activator™ package contains a minimum of 100 billion cells in a yeast slurry.. The Activator™ is designed to directly inoculate 5 gallons of standard strength ale wort (1.034-1.060 SG) with professional pitching rates. For lagers, we recommend inoculating the wort at warm temperatures (68-70°F/ 20-21°C), waiting for signs of fermentation, and then adjusting to the desired temperature. Alternatively, for pitching into cold conditions (34-58°F/ 1-14°C) or higher gravity wort, we recommend increasing this pitching rate. This can be achieved by pitching additional Activator™ packages or by making a starter culture. Please see the Pitch Rate section for additional information.

...clip

Click to expand...

The funny thing about all this is the directions on the package DO say he needs a starter for his 1.066 OG beer.

NQ3X said:

That's a pretty good plan, Mr Monkey!

If I might offer a suggestion - you're providing much, much more than "a good cell count". You're actually considerably overpitching by knocking out onto a yeast cake. In lagers, that's not so much of a problem, but with ales - even clean American styles - overpitching prevents ester formation crucial to excellent beer. In fact, I agree with JZ that knocking out onto a yeast cake makes inferior beer compared to beers fermented by pitching the appropriate amount of yeast.

Far better to harvest a proportion of that yeast cake. You don't have to wash it if you're going to use it straight away. For appropriate amounts, consult the Mr Malty Pitching Rate calculator or the Yeast Pitching article on the HBT Wiki.

This method has the added benefit of permitting ten or more generations instead of three! In my opinion, the pluses - more generations (more savings), better ferments, better beer in the package, managing yeast like a professional brewer - far outweigh the minuses - scooping yeast slurry into a sanitized Mason jar. Your mileage, of course, may vary.

Cheers!

Bob

Click to expand...

That's a good point -- I really __should__ start measuring the amount of yeast I'm using instead of pitching onto the entire thing.....I've read a fair bit on overpitching and there seems to be quite a disagreement as to how big of a problem it is for homebrewers. A lot of people say it's a non-issue, then others say it can be a critical problem. In practice, my beers have turned out really well, but could they be better if I pitched the "correct" and measured amount? I have no idea.

As far as the generation thing goes -- I've read that generally you don't want to go past the 5th generation. I've gone to the 6th one time before and that particular beer was a dumper (although I believe this was simply a cumulative sanitation issue, not that 5 generations is a magic number after which yeast is unusable).....So I generally go 4 or 5 generations and just don't consider the risk worth it to go past that.

maltMonkey said:

That's a good point -- I really __should__ start measuring the amount of yeast I'm using instead of pitching onto the entire thing.....I've read a fair bit on overpitching and there seems to be quite a disagreement as to how big of a problem it is for homebrewers. A lot of people say it's a non-issue, then others say it can be a critical problem. In practice, my beers have turned out really well, but could they be better if I pitched the "correct" and measured amount? I have no idea.

Click to expand...

Well, considering such homebrewing luminaries as JZ and Ray Daniels believe so, every single professional brewer I've ever met (including yours truly) believes so, legendary brewing theorists like Fix and Bamforth believe so - I think the overwhelming argument is for pitching the appropriate, measured amount of yeast.

I realize I'm on one side of the disagreement. Still, I have the fortunate advantage of professional experience and ALL the brewing science on my side. Frankly, I don't understand why there's any controversy. Scientific fact is scientific fact, and no amount of wrangling on Teh Intarwebz is going to change that. [shrug]

As far as the generation thing goes -- I've read that generally you don't want to go past the 5th generation. I've gone to the 6th one time before and that particular beer was a dumper (although I believe this was simply a cumulative sanitation issue, not that 5 generations is a magic number after which yeast is unusable).....So I generally go 4 or 5 generations and just don't consider the risk worth it to go past that.

Click to expand...

With careful yeast management, yeast can be pitched indefinitely. Of course, this requires washing, cell counts & viability tests, careful storage, etc. But it can be done. Hell, lots and lots of commercial breweries do it, and some homebrewers do it.

I can see how 4 or 5 times is pushing the hell out of a colony if you're knocking out onto a cake; because of the size of the colony, you're essentially asking the same cells to conduct a ferment 4 or 5 times without replenishing themselves. In other words, you're fermenting 4 or 5 times with the same generation, because there's enough yeast that they don't make a new generation during the aerobic phase. With that cell count, there is no aerobic phase. You go through your life cycle 5 times without even a nap, see how you feel!

Even without washing, careful harvesting should yield at least a half-dozen generations from homebreweries. Homebreweries with conical fermenters can go out to a dozen or more, because it's easier to harvest good, viable yeast from the cone of a conical than it is from a bucket or carboy. My max when brewing professionally was 15 generations.

Cheers,

Bob