WestMichBrewer
Well-Known Member
Agree on this point - an extra pound of grain will likely cost you less than 2 bucks.
I myself are seeing about 65% and would like to bump my efficiency up, but overall I am happy with my end results.
Increasing Efficiency
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Agree on this point - an extra pound of grain will likely cost you less than 2 bucks.
I myself are seeing about 65% and would like to bump my efficiency up, but overall I am happy with my end results.
WestMichBrewer
Well-Known Member
I myself AM seeing...
Last beer I saw about 80% actually.
Agreed. Just follow these recommendations and fine tune your procedures. My first few all grain batches I was all over the place with a couple of beers below 60%. But I'm getting everything dialed in now and my last four batches have been between 75% and 82%!
Tactical-Brewer
Well-Known Member
Awesome write up! I completely forgot to stir up my mash before sparging dang it. Ya live ya learn.
AlfA01
...it ain't sold in heaven...
SS good....Aluminum, not so good!
Jaxmickey
Colin Craft Brewing
So to be completely noob here (which I am), if my preboil OG is too low, do I boil longer to get it back up again, or pour it back into the mash and let it mash longer after a good stir?
WestMichBrewer
Well-Known Member
I've not heard of attempting to continue the mash, but it might work.
Usually you can boil it down a bit but this can also affect the color and potentially flavor (not necessarily bad things), or more commonly plan on adding some DME to boost the gravity.
OG will affect hop utilization during the boil so you may have to adjust for this.
Whether or not trying to extend the mash will work depends on the conversion efficiency of the original mash, and if the amylase has been denatured. If essentially all of the starch was converted to sugar during the original mash, then there is nothing to gain by mashing any longer. There is no more starch to convert to sugar. If you did a mash out to denature the enzymes prior to run off, or the mash was at a high enough temperature long enough, then there will be no enzymes to convert any remaining starch to sugar. If the mash or wort never got above about 160˚F, and original starch conversion was incomplete, then you may be able to restart the mash and get some additional conversion.
If you had essentially complete starch conversion, and did a sparge, then putting the wort back into the grain will actually reduce your SG. Not what you want to do.
You can determine what percentage of the starch has been converted to sugar by measuring the SG of the wort in the mash and comparing to the max possible SG for your water to grain ratio (mash thickness) using the table here.
My recommendation is to make sure your mash has reached maximum conversion, or enzymes have been denatured and SG has stopped increasing, before running off any wort.
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Jaxmickey
Colin Craft Brewing
Thank you guys. 
Cheers!
Cheers!
dhelegda
Well-Known Member
This is a great idea, I try to keep a bag of extra light DME laying around in case I miss my target! Remember to make sure you chill your wort to 60 degrees to ensure a proper gravity reading. Or but a hydrometer that with read temp and tell you what to adjust your gravity by!
shorestyle
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Too low compared to what efficiency %? My opinion is if you're new and you don't know how efficient your system is, keep brewing, keep a note on your expected efficiency and adjust your grain bills accordingly. Consistency is far more important.
pricelessbrewing
Brewer's Friend Software Manager
You have three ways to handle low preboil.
1) Boil down to intended Preboil SG. This is my preferred method as long as it's close-ish.
2) Add DME.
3) Take notes and just let it ride out from here.
Regardless you should be taking notes, and measuring your first runnings gravity as well in order to get your conversion efficiency. Just have preboil/postboil is not enough to isolate the issue in regards to conversion or lautering issue.
1) Boil down to intended Preboil SG. This is my preferred method as long as it's close-ish.
2) Add DME.
3) Take notes and just let it ride out from here.
Regardless you should be taking notes, and measuring your first runnings gravity as well in order to get your conversion efficiency. Just have preboil/postboil is not enough to isolate the issue in regards to conversion or lautering issue.
OP
OP
texasbrewer73
Well-Known Member
This. As you are learning your system and the process, be prepared to make mistakes and learn from them. Extra DME on hand for low PG or just living with a weaker beer is the best advice. If you continue to have lower PG, then look at how you are measuring (everything measured at 65-70 deg F?). If that's good, look at your process. Full conversion? Grain crush ok? Sparging technique? All of those will be be factors that play into your pre-boil gravity.
And don't forget - in the end, you still made beer.
Thanks.
century106
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Thanks for the information. Until reading this I've been hung up on trying to drive my efficiency up. My beer has been turning out good biut, I still like trying to get the most out of the grains. Your post has provided me with a plan to work with!
Dcpcooks
Well-Known Member
Don't chase efficiency, chase flavor and repeatability. It's a great thread, don't get me wrong. Unless your goal is cutting a few percentage points off your costs you can achieve far greater results elsewhere. All Efficiency really means is you have maximized your systems throughputs. You have decreased your waste to a minimum at your kettle, your mash tun, fermentor and with grain crush.
I look at efficiency every day as a chef. I constantly have to manage costs so I can pay my good people more, buy better quality Ingredients and make more money. However I promise you you that quality isn't necessarily improved solely on efficiency.
I can stir my mash every 15 min and add 10 gravity points to my beers. I can also add a few lbs of grain and keep my swmbo happy because I'm not constantly in the brewery trying to hit an effeciency. Sometimes keeping the costs low are important. Sometimes keeping my lovely bride happy is more important. When I've gone to two football games, hung out with my buddies a little too often and stayed out late and I'm trying to brew three or four times in a few weeks it can be cheaper to buy more grains.
Just my two cents🤔
I look at efficiency every day as a chef. I constantly have to manage costs so I can pay my good people more, buy better quality Ingredients and make more money. However I promise you you that quality isn't necessarily improved solely on efficiency.
I can stir my mash every 15 min and add 10 gravity points to my beers. I can also add a few lbs of grain and keep my swmbo happy because I'm not constantly in the brewery trying to hit an effeciency. Sometimes keeping the costs low are important. Sometimes keeping my lovely bride happy is more important. When I've gone to two football games, hung out with my buddies a little too often and stayed out late and I'm trying to brew three or four times in a few weeks it can be cheaper to buy more grains.
Just my two cents🤔
Jaxmickey
Colin Craft Brewing
So if I have 18.5 lbs of grain, and only 20 qts of water, does my efficiency go down? The water level was still over the top of the grain bed.
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texasbrewer73
Well-Known Member
I guess that depends on what you are comparing that mash too. Seems pretty thick for a mash IMO. As compared to a 1.5-1.75 ratio mash and all other things being equal, you likely would see a drop in efficiency.
I always log my efficiency. Making 10gal batches, if u use 20-25 lbs of grain, (5% beer) my efficiency is really good, 78-82%. If I use more than 25 lbs grain my efficiency take a hit. I mill my own grains, and batch sparge. Always in 79-81 range as long as I'm paying attention. Also I stir the mash rest every 20 min.
The drop in efficiency when using more grain for the same size batch is well understood (at least by those who have studied it) and is completely predictable. With more grain, you have more total grain absorption, so a larger percentage of the total wort (and total sugar) is held in the grain bed due to absorption. The chart below shows how the lauter efficiency varies with the grain weight to pre-boil volume ratio for both no sparge and equal running batch sparge and various levels of grain absorption.
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The inherently lower efficiency in big beers can be easily remedied by purposely planning to boil longer (like for 2 hours) and sparge more to collect the necessary preboil volume for the longer boil.
The inherently lower efficiency in big beers can be easily remedied by purposely planning to boil longer (like for 2 hours) and sparge more to collect the necessary preboil volume for the longer boil.
You can reduce the loss of efficiency by increasing your pre-boil volume, but to get equivalent efficiency for 2X the grain, you need to double your pre-boil volume (if you do the same number of sparges.) You can improve on that a little by adding additional sparge steps, but you still can't get equivalent efficiency without using a lot more water (much higher pre-boil volume.) That's why the chart uses "Grain Weight / Pre-Boil Volume" on the X-axis.
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ExperimentalMental
Member
Hey there fellas, first post, long time brewer. (+10yrs)
I think adding an extra pound of grain is cheap, as long as we batch sparge, our efficiency will suffer. I get my best efficiencies when my mash and sparge volumes are close to the same. I figure if there is x amount of sugar available, your dilution will reach an equilibrium, so more sparge water equals more efficiency, to a point. But gas is expensive, so I'm willing to buy the extra lb of grain, as opposed to more gas.
I think adding an extra pound of grain is cheap, as long as we batch sparge, our efficiency will suffer. I get my best efficiencies when my mash and sparge volumes are close to the same. I figure if there is x amount of sugar available, your dilution will reach an equilibrium, so more sparge water equals more efficiency, to a point. But gas is expensive, so I'm willing to buy the extra lb of grain, as opposed to more gas.
Kai Troester showed that equal volume run-offs for mash and sparge provide the maximum efficiency when batch sparging (ref: http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Batch_Sparging_Analysis.) I have duplicated this conclusion with my own modeling, as has @pricelessbrewing, and probably others. So, your observations match with theory. You are also correct that increasing the total amount of brewing water will recover a larger percentage of sugar from the mash, but that leads to more expensive boils, and possibly excessive Maillard reactions, which can have undesirable color or flavor effects (in some cases they may be desirable, however.)
I don't believe batch sparging necessarily causes efficiency to suffer compared to fly sparging. It is very easy to get less than optimal results when fly sparging (due to channeling mostly), and in such cases batch sparging can yield better efficiency.
I also agree that maximizing efficiency is not always the best path for home brewers. Process consistency is much more important w.r.t. getting predictable results, than is efficiency. I do lots of analyses and writing about efficiency, but the purpose is to improve understanding about what affects process results, rather than push efficiency for efficiency's sake.
Welcome to the discussion(s).
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ExperimentalMental
Member
Hey that's great validation of my process, thanks. Sometimes we allow ourselves to run down the rabbit hole in search of maximizing our grain or hops, but fail to realize the cost. I have chased that rabbit hole from different angles, but I have learned from the experiences. Now I just don't worry about it that much. After brewing for a number of years I have learned what works well with my system, as long as I hit my numbers I know the process is working properly.
Decoction mashing will "greatly" increase mash efficiency only if conversion efficiency is significantly less than 100%. Mash Efficiency = Conversion Efficiency * Lauter Efficiency. It's obvious that decoction has no effect on lauter efficiency, so the only role it can play is in conversion efficiency. It is possible to get 100% conversion efficiency with a single infusion mash (I do it fairly regularly.) Before moving to decoction in an attempt to improve conversion efficiency (if you have other reasons for pursuing decoctions, then by all means carry on,) I recommend that you make sure that all of your other mash conditions are optimal:
- Crush as fine as your system will allow without causing stuck run-offs or recirculation.
- Insure there are no dough balls after mash in.
- Insure mash temperatures are correct (i.e. calibrate your thermometers, measure temp at multiple locations in the mash.)
- Insure mash pH is within the optimal range of 5.3 - 5.6 (measured at room temperature.)
- Attempt mashing longer.
- Mash thinner if you are mashing at less than 1.25 qt/lb.
To adequately diagnose unacceptably low mash efficiency, you must measure both your conversion efficiency and lauter efficiency. If your conversion efficiency is already at 95%+, trying to increase it can only have limited effect. Same if your lauter efficiency is near optimal. You can't fix a conversion efficiency issue by working on your lautering process (although, you can pick up some mash efficiency points by switching to a lautering process with theoretically higher recovery potential than your current process.)
Brew on
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texasbrewer73
Well-Known Member
I agree with this mostly. When I brew a BoPils or an Octoberfest, I almost always use the Braukaiser method for the enhanced double decoction - it indeed adds a flavor that is worth the effort. I also generally see an efficiency increase. That having been said, I would not use a decoction as a means of increasing efficiency.
For starters, many of the grains available today are highly modified and decoction mashing further breaks protein down to a point your beer may suffer in the end. When I use this method, I am certain to use an under-modified grain (floor malted pils for example) that can withstand the decoction process.
Second, decoction mashing adds a few hours to my brew day. With my equipment, I can bang out a 10 gal batch in about 6-7 hours - from filling up the HLT to final cleanup. Adding 3 hours to every batch makes for long brew sessions IMO.
Lastly, and most important to me, is this gets to my point in an earlier response to this thread - in increasing efficiency, you're employing extremely inefficient process changes. Its my belief that if you go through the process assessments doug293cz mentioned above and still do not realize efficiency improvements, accept it and just add some extra grain to your bill. For the extra money you'll spend on fuel for the decoction, I would just add grain to a beer that doesn't benefit from the process. Keeps it simple and gets you to enjoying your homebrew faster on brew day.
bonecitybrewco
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You should read Brulosophy today.
One of the biggest thing I found helped increase efficiency is second decoction and longer boil. Essentially make sure you get your runoff gravity closer to 1.010, or 1.012 on the sparge and start with a larger boil. Then just boil it off longer to get to desired fermentation amount. I moved to 80 minute boils (but still add hops at the usual 60min mark for bittering etc). Just my two cents, but its increased my brewhouse efficiency a solid 10%
00Seven
All-Terrain Brewing Company
Maybe y'all can help me out a bit. Brewers friend has shown me an estimated efficiency of 60% for my first and last 3 batches. Equipment measurements are fairly accurate. I'm making 5.25 gallon batches. Mash tun is 55 quart rectangular cooler with bazooka screen. Here's my process
Preheat mashtun
Collect and treat water
Get strike water to temp
Empty heating water and fill with grain
Pour strike water, stir thoroughly every 20 mins (1.33 q/p thickness)
Stir one last time and drain after 60 minutes (holds heat throughout)
Batch sparge 1 at around 170 target temp
Stir and let sit for 10 minutes, drain
Batch sparge 2 target temp 170, don't stir
Sit for 10 miniutes and drain as thoroughly as possible
Check volume, check temp, check gravity (adjusted for temp) then start boil and go
All my beers taste great but can't figure out why I'm consistently getting 60%. First thought is my mashtun may be a little on the large side. Second thought is that maybe I'm doing something wrong when I'm sparging or could just be how my grains are crushed. I've ordered from two different companies and have gotten the same results, don't have any other options as the closest HBS is 2 hours away but even using their stuff myself I got 60%. Thanks for the input
Preheat mashtun
Collect and treat water
Get strike water to temp
Empty heating water and fill with grain
Pour strike water, stir thoroughly every 20 mins (1.33 q/p thickness)
Stir one last time and drain after 60 minutes (holds heat throughout)
Batch sparge 1 at around 170 target temp
Stir and let sit for 10 minutes, drain
Batch sparge 2 target temp 170, don't stir
Sit for 10 miniutes and drain as thoroughly as possible
Check volume, check temp, check gravity (adjusted for temp) then start boil and go
All my beers taste great but can't figure out why I'm consistently getting 60%. First thought is my mashtun may be a little on the large side. Second thought is that maybe I'm doing something wrong when I'm sparging or could just be how my grains are crushed. I've ordered from two different companies and have gotten the same results, don't have any other options as the closest HBS is 2 hours away but even using their stuff myself I got 60%. Thanks for the input
Nothing terribly wrong with your process. Couple of minor tweaks you could make:
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- Drain thoroughly after each run off. Initial run off is most important for this.
- Stir both sparges for about 5 minutes. No need to wait to drain after a thorough mixing.
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00Seven
All-Terrain Brewing Company
Hey thanks! I should've specified a bit more, I do drain as much as possible inbetween. Tipping the cooler up and down and stirring until I can't get any more liquid out. Would mashing thinner help also? Maybe 1.5-1.75 qt/lb? That link is really helpful. Thanks!Nothing terribly wrong with your process. Couple of minor tweaks you could make:
But neither of those is what's causing your low efficiency. With a double batch sparge, you could be getting 85% - 90% mash (pre-boil) efficiency for normal size beers. So, it's likely that you have low conversion efficiency (mash efficiency = conversion efficiency * lauter efficiency), and that is almost always due to too coarse of a crush. You can measure your conversion efficiency using the method here. Homebrewers can get conversion efficiencies of 95% - 100% with a good crush. Getting your own grain mill would be a big step towards improving your efficiency. Until you can do that, increasing your mash time to 90 or even 120 minutes should improve your conversion efficiency.
- Drain thoroughly after each run off. Initial run off is most important for this.
- Stir both sparges for about 5 minutes. No need to wait to drain after a thorough mixing.
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Mashing thinner may help speed up conversion a little, but will also reduce the volume of sparge water you have, which can reduce your lauter efficiency slightly. If you're interested, I can run some simulations for you, but will need more data on your system plus gravity and volume data from some of your brew sessions. Or. you could run the simulations yourself using the spreadsheet here.
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00Seven
All-Terrain Brewing Company
That would be great! I tried to get it to open but my iPad didn't like the file. Final batch size 5.25 in the fermentator, grain bill 10 pounds, usually assume grain absorption of 20%. Not 100% sure on dead space, I'm able to get most everything out of it and have minimal places for water to hide. Last batch I just did had a 8.75 pound grain bill, I had a total of 8.5 gallons, 2.9 for strike, 5.6 total for sparge and my water in the bucket was dead on 5.25. Boil time 60 minutes at 80' elevation. Usually have 6.5ish gallons in the pot beforehand boiling an hour. Let me know what other info you need. ThanksMashing thinner may help speed up conversion a little, but will also reduce the volume of sparge water you have, which can reduce your lauter efficiency slightly. If you're interested, I can run some simulations for you, but will need more data on your system plus gravity and volume data from some of your brew sessions. Or. you could run the simulations yourself using the spreadsheet here.
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Ok, the data needed for each batch:
I don't bother with brewhouse efficiency as it is trivial:
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- Grain bill weight
- Strike water volume
- Volume for each sparge
- Initial runnings SG (if you have it)
- Pre-boil volume and SG
- Post-boil volume and SG
I don't bother with brewhouse efficiency as it is trivial:
BrewHouse Efficiency = Mash Efficiency * Fermenter Volume / Post-Boil Volume
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