Help: Water Treatment Bohemian Pilsner Seattle Water

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biertourist

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Yes, I know I'm incredibly lucky with my water especially when it comes to BoPils. -The pH is actually higher than I expected...


I have a VERY experienced brewer who brews probably 1 out of every 4 beers as a bohemian pilsner on the same neighborhood as me so I know that I still need to add a bit of lactic acid even with my incredibly soft and mineral free water, but how much given my grist?

Total Alkalinity (mg/L as CaCO3): 17.7
Calcium mg/L as CaCO3: 23.4
Total Hardness mg/L as CaCo3: 25
Total Hardness as grains / gal CaCO3: 1.4
Chloride 2.6
Sulfate: 7.4
Sodium: 0.79 mg /L
Magnesium: 0.36
Phosphate soluable-reactive: 2 micro grams / Liter
TDS: 37.3
pH: 8.12 - 8.51

Grist / Beer stats:
OG: 1.056

Best Pilsen Malt 84.8%
Carafoam: 4.3%
Vienna Malt (Weyermann): 10.9%


I mention the grist because I know that crystal malt can help drop the pH a bit and I thought that MAYBE the 11% Vienna would help drop the mash pH just a bit, too.


The question I ultimately want to answer is how much 88% lactic acid should I initially add to my HLT to try to hit an ideal mash pH? (10 gallon batch with 13 gallons in HLT)


I'm happy to measure the mash pH and then slowly add a few more lactic acid drops but I've been given some advice that because of the VERY low buffering capability of our water that just a little too much causes a rapid drop in pH.

My friend used 40 drops of lactic in his HLT for a 10 gallon batch (about 1/4 tsp) but he uses slightly less water in his HLT for a 10 gallon batch and used a 100% Pilsner malt grist. -He's also stated that with our water even a 1/4 tsp that's "domed" with surface tension can quickly drop the pH below 5.2.


I think 40 drops of lactic is still probably a good starting place for me in my 13 gallons of HLT water but I've never actually calculated.



Thanks in advance,
Adam
 
biertourist said:
Yes, I know I'm incredibly lucky with my water especially when it comes to BoPils. -The pH is actually higher than I expected...
Click to expand...
The pH of the water has little to do with the pH of the mash.


biertourist said:
..I know that I still need to add a bit of lactic acid even with my incredibly soft and mineral free water, but how much given my grist?

Total Alkalinity (mg/L as CaCO3): 17.7
Calcium mg/L as CaCO3: 23.4
Total Hardness mg/L as CaCo3: 25
Total Hardness as grains / gal CaCO3: 1.4
Chloride 2.6
Sulfate: 7.4
Sodium: 0.79 mg /L
Magnesium: 0.36
Phosphate soluable-reactive: 2 micro grams / Liter
TDS: 37.3
pH: 8.12 - 8.51

Grist / Beer stats:
OG: 1.056

Best Pilsen Malt 84.8%
Carafoam: 4.3%
Vienna Malt (Weyermann): 10.9%

With water this soft it will depend almost exclusively on the grist.


biertourist said:
I mention the grist because I know that crystal malt can help drop the pH a bit and I thought that MAYBE the 11% Vienna would help drop the mash pH just a bit, too.
Click to expand...
You don't say what mash pH you are trying to hit other than that it should be 'ideal. Assuming this means 5.5, that the best malt behaves like Weyermanns, that you are mashing with 1.2 quarts per pound and that you are adding enough calcium chloride to get the calcium up to 40 mg/L, indications are that neither the calcium (removing it would raise mash pH 0.016), Vienna (removing it would raise mash pH 0.011) nor cara (removing it would lower mash pH 0.007) would have much effect on mash pH. It also seems that you would need 0.284 mL of 88% lactic acid per pound of grain. As mL is 15.41963 drops (approximately) that is 4.4 drops/lb. This is to be added to the entire volume of the mash water IOW it all must go into the mash. When you add the acid to just the water the pH will plummet because the water itself has little buffering. The acid is for the grain - not the water.

As is always the case where a calculation like this is done it has to be caveated by the fact that I haven't measured the particular malt you are using so the prediction can't be guaranteed. The best practice is to make a test mash using about a pound of grist.
Click to expand...
 
ajdelange said:
The pH of the water has little to do with the pH of the mash.


biertourist said:
..I know that I still need to add a bit of lactic acid even with my incredibly soft and mineral free water, but how much given my grist?

Total Alkalinity (mg/L as CaCO3): 17.7
Calcium mg/L as CaCO3: 23.4
Total Hardness mg/L as CaCo3: 25
Total Hardness as grains / gal CaCO3: 1.4
Chloride 2.6
Sulfate: 7.4
Sodium: 0.79 mg /L
Magnesium: 0.36
Phosphate soluable-reactive: 2 micro grams / Liter
TDS: 37.3
pH: 8.12 - 8.51

Grist / Beer stats:
OG: 1.056

Best Pilsen Malt 84.8%
Carafoam: 4.3%
Vienna Malt (Weyermann): 10.9%

With water this soft it will depend almost exclusively on the grist.



You don't say what mash pH you are trying to hit other than that it should be 'ideal. Assuming this means 5.5, that the best malt behaves like Weyermanns, that you are mashing with 1.2 quarts per pound and that you are adding enough calcium chloride to get the calcium up to 40 mg/L, indications are that neither the calcium (removing it would raise mash pH 0.016), Vienna (removing it would raise mash pH 0.011) nor cara (removing it would lower mash pH 0.007) would have much effect on mash pH. It also seems that you would need 0.284 mL of 88% lactic acid per pound of grain. As mL is 15.41963 drops (approximately) that is 4.4 drops/lb. This is to be added to the entire volume of the mash water IOW it all must go into the mash. When you add the acid to just the water the pH will plummet because the water itself has little buffering. The acid is for the grain - not the water.

As is always the case where a calculation like this is done it has to be caveated by the fact that I haven't measured the particular malt you are using so the prediction can't be guaranteed. The best practice is to make a test mash using about a pound of grist.
Click to expand...


Thanks AJ, This gives me a good starting point / rule of thumb so that I don't completely go off the rails. That's all I was looking for.

I am NOT planning on adding any calcium; I want this BoPils made with the incredibly soft water that I have and if it takes forever to clarify, that's ok; I know it's not ideal from a yeast nutrition perspective but the yeast will get calcium and other nutrients in the starter.

The Mash pH will get adjusted with lactic acid only.


Adam
Click to expand...
 
That's all fine. As you well know some of the world reknowned pilsners are made with very soft water. It wasn't the calcium I was really thinking about so much as the chloride. I personally find that extra chloride makes a Pils better than the ones I made in the past with less. This is, of course, a matter of personal taste so try it with the very soft water first and then with some extra chloride (could come from sodium chloride too).
 
ajdelange said:
The pH of the water has little to do with the pH of the mash.
Click to expand...

Sorry if I threadjack, but I've seen this comment and am wondering how it applies to slaked lime treatment. I've seen directions say that after such treatment the pH is too high and the water needs to be treated with acid. But then I read comments such as yours above saying pH of the water matters little. Is this just as it relates to mash ph, and acid malt would suffice, or is it truly necessary to add acid (phosphoric or lactic) post-lime treatment to get the pH of the brewing water down prior to other acid additions for mash pH, for e.g., acidulated malt or caramel/roasted malts?
 
D-Train said:
Sorry if I threadjack, but I've seen this comment and am wondering how it applies to slaked lime treatment. I've seen directions say that after such treatment the pH is too high and the water needs to be treated with acid.
Click to expand...

The statement still holds but it's really only half a statement. The full statment should be "The pH of the mashing liquor is of little importance in predicting it's behaviour in the mash; it is the alkalinity that one needs to pay attention to."

Thus if the water is decarbonated by lime treatment to pH 8.3 (which, I suppose, most people would consider too high) with alkalinity reduced to well less than 1 mEq/L, all is fine and it does not matter that the pH is high. It would take very little acid to neutralize it to mash pH. OTOH if the decarbonation has been less than fully effective (alkalinity 2 mEq/L or more) then it would require approximately 2 mEq/L of acid to neutralize it to mash pH. Conversely if the pH is 6 but the alkalinity is 2 (possible but unlikely) you still need approximately 2 mEq/L acid to knock it out.

D-Train said:
But then I read comments such as yours above saying pH of the water matters little. Is this just as it relates to mash ph, and acid malt would suffice, or is it truly necessary to add acid (phosphoric or lactic) post-lime treatment to get the pH of the brewing water down prior to other acid additions for mash pH, for e.g., acidulated malt or caramel/roasted malts?
Click to expand...

What you want to ensure is that at the end of the lime softening process the pH is at least as low as 8.3. This is to insure that all the hydroxyl ions you added with the lime (which can contribute to alkalinity) are neutralized. The 'acid' that is ideal to use for this is the bicarbonate in the water being treated. Ideally you would calculate the amount of lime needed, add it to about half or 2/3 of the water and then add the rest as you monitor pH. If you can't hit 8.3 with the source water (e.g. if its pH is higher than this) then bubble CO2 in order to supply the needed acid.
 
ajdelange said:
That's all fine. As you well know some of the world reknowned pilsners are made with very soft water. It wasn't the calcium I was really thinking about so much as the chloride. I personally find that extra chloride makes a Pils better than the ones I made in the past with less. This is, of course, a matter of personal taste so try it with the very soft water first and then with some extra chloride (could come from sodium chloride too).
Click to expand...


Maybe this is a crazy question, but won't I still get a little bit of calcium from even the malt itself?

-If not, maybe I should target 40ppm of CaCl.



Adam
 
biertourist said:
Maybe this is a crazy question, but won't I still get a little bit of calcium from even the malt itself?
Click to expand...
Yes, you will. Pilsen water, for example, is very low in calcium and they make a pretty good pils there.

biertourist said:
If not, maybe I should target 40ppm of CaCl.
Click to expand...

I really think you should proceed with your current plan and then taste the finished beer with and without a pinch of salt (it was common practice when I was a kid to add some salt to beer) to see if you think the chloride improves the taste. If you decide it does then up the chloride in the mash water a bit and brew again. Keep careful tasting notes.
 

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