BeerSmith... confused on IBUs for Blue Dot Double IPA Clone

Ok, so I have an issue. I entered a clone recipe that I got for Blue Dot Double IPA from a BYO issue. Acording to the BYO recipe this should come out at 100+ IBUs... now I know 100+ is vauge, but after entering everything into BeerSmith it calulated out to 422 IBU?!?!?

So my question is, which is correct? If I don't have to sell a kidney to afford all the hops to make this clone, then that's ok by me.

Thoughts?



BeerSmith Recipe Printout - http://www.beersmith.com
Recipe: Blue Dot Double IPA (Hair of the Dog)
Brewer: GryphonBrew
Asst Brewer:
Style: Imperial IPA
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (35.0)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 5.25 gal
Boil Size: 8.86 gal
Estimated OG: 1.077 SG
Estimated Color: 3.3 SRM
Estimated IBU: 422.0 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00 %
Boil Time: 180 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
13 lbs 2.7 oz Pilsner (2 Row) UK (1.0 SRM) Grain 88.21 %
1 lbs 12.2 oz Rye, Flaked (2.0 SRM) Grain 11.79 %
5.00 oz Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] (Dry Hop 3 days) Hops -
5.00 oz Warrior [15.00 %] (Dry Hop 3 days) Hops -
4.00 oz Warrior [16.00 %] (75 min) Hops 211.5 IBU
4.00 oz Magnum [14.00 %] (40 min) Hops 155.5 IBU
4.00 oz Columbus (Tomahawk) [12.00 %] (10 min) Hops 55.0 IBU
1 Pkgs Scottish Ale (Wyeast Labs #1728) Yeast-Ale


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Medium Body, Batch Sparge
Total Grain Weight: 14.93 lb
----------------------------
Single Infusion, Medium Body, Batch Sparge
Step Time Name Description Step Temp
90 min Mash In Add 18.66 qt of water at 170.1 F 154.0 F

The formulas all kind of fall apart above 100 IBU, but what you've got listed there checks out about right. I can't speak to the quality of the recipe, but you've got a half-pound of early addition bittering hops so it should be quite tongue-scraping.

There's a story that circulates (true or not) that bitterness flattens out at around 100 IBUs. Likely, the BYO people are just listing the recipe as 100+ to indicate that they don't have a good approximation.

MalFet said:

The formulas all kind of fall apart above 100 IBU, but what you've got listed there checks out about right. I can't speak to the quality of the recipe, but you've got a half-pound of early addition bittering hops so it should be quite tongue-scraping.

There's a story that circulates (true or not) that bitterness flattens out at around 100 IBUs. Likely, the BYO people are just listing the recipe as 100+ to indicate that they don't have a good approximation.

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I guess that's good and bad. I've done a few recipes from this BYO issue and hopped that this one would turn out as well as the others did. If you've never had the Blue Dot before, it's like a throat punch full of hoppy goodness. Maybe I'll scale it down in BeerSmith to around the 100 IBU range if infact the rumors are true. I would hate to blow all that $$$ on hops that you can't taste.

GryphonBrew said:

I guess that's good and bad. I've done a few recipes from this BYO issue and hopped that this one would turn out as well as the others did. If you've never had the Blue Dot before, it's like a throat punch full of hoppy goodness. Maybe I'll scale it down in BeerSmith to around the 100 IBU range if infact the rumors are true. I would hate to blow all that $$$ on hops that you can't taste.

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If you cut the hops, it will taste very different than it would as per the recipe. The bitterness might or might not cap out at ~100 IBUs, but bitterness isn't the only thing you're getting from hop additions.

MalFet said:

If you cut the hops, it will taste very different than it would as per the recipe. The bitterness might or might not cap out at ~100 IBUs, but bitterness isn't the only thing you're getting from hop additions.

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Do you think scaleing the early additions down and cranking up the late additions would make more sense since the 100 IBU max is pretty well acceptd? I do have a 3 hour boil to spread hops out in afterall.

GryphonBrew said:

Do you think scaleing the early additions down and cranking up the late additions would make more sense since the 100 IBU max is pretty well acceptd? I do have a 3 hour boil to spread hops out in afterall.

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That's certainly what I would do, but you'll be deviating from the recipe as it was intended (and, likewise, possibly making this less of a clone). I am a big fan of whirlpool additions, but this beer seems to be mostly about the bittering.

BTW, what's with the 3 hour boil? That seems unnecessarily long.

MalFet said:

That's certainly what I would do, but you'll be deviating from the recipe as it was intended (and, likewise, possibly making this less of a clone). I am a big fan of whirlpool additions, but this beer seems to be mostly about the bittering.

BTW, what's with the 3 hour boil? That seems unnecessarily long.

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Good stuff. How bad could it be, even if it is no longer a clone, with that much hops it'll have to taste/smell darn good!

As for the 3 hour boil, I thought the exact same thing, seemed like a waste of time and propane. Did a search on here and there really wasn't any conclusive posts. Onlty references to darkening/caramalizing the wort to get flavors found in big belgian beers, and a few references talking about removing some of the off flavors and smoothing the whole thing out... Not sure that's at all accurate, but that's what the recipe called for.

I would love any real input on the 3 hour boil time.

If you really go with a 3 hour boil you'd better sparge a lot and/or add water. And I hope you have a big enough boil pot...it'll probably take 8-9 gallons preboil, not even considering the absorption from the hops.

GryphonBrew said:

Good stuff. How bad could it be, even if it is no longer a clone, with that much hops it'll have to taste/smell darn good!

As for the 3 hour boil, I thought the exact same thing, seemed like a waste of time and propane. Did a search on here and there really wasn't any conclusive posts. Onlty references to darkening/caramalizing the wort to get flavors found in big belgian beers, and a few references talking about removing some of the off flavors and smoothing the whole thing out... Not sure that's at all accurate, but that's what the recipe called for.

I would love any real input on the 3 hour boil time.

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Hmm...I do 90min boils most of the time, especially when I'm using a significant amount of Pilsner malt. With as much hopping as this has, I doubt you're going to notice traces of DMS in any case. I don't really see a point to three full hours. You'll get slightly elevated melanoidin production, but I'm not sure that's even desirable for this recipe by the looks of it.

GryphonBrew said:

I would love any real input on the 3 hour boil time.

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I think its just what HOTD likes to do. I've seen it in a few of their recipes

weirdboy said:

If you really go with a 3 hour boil you'd better sparge a lot and/or add water. And I hope you have a big enough boil pot...it'll probably take 8-9 gallons preboil, not even considering the absorption from the hops.

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Yes sir. BeerSmith calculated out 2 sparges to get me to almost 9 gallons of pre boil volume.

I didn't see this mentioned, but it all depends on which default scale the software uses. It's got to be the same scale the BYO magaizine uses. Or else the numbers aren't going to jibe.

There's plenty of threads on here discussing it. Somewhere it should tell you what the default setting is, and even give you the option to change it. Even on the free Beercalculus website.

Here's an explanation of how Beercalculus calculates it from their Hopville Blog;

Previously, the default IBU calculation for Beer Calculus was based on an average of a few popular formulas. It did four calculations (Garetz, Rager, Tinseth, and the legacy Hopville calc) and averaged them together. I chose to blend a few conflicting numbers together instead of committing to a single one by default. That neutral position tended to cause some confusion among both types of brewers: those who cared which formula was in use, but didn’t know you could change it, and those who didn’t care at all. Plus, the only indication that a formula selection was being made was a subtle message “avg” near the IBU result – pretty vague about what was happening behind the scenes. Recipes now default to the Tinseth formula. Hopefully this will satisfy those who prefer this formula, and also clarify the default calculation to folks who don’t really care.

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One of the most recent thread discussing this is here. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f84/different-ibus-provided-different-software-218066/

MalFet said:

Hmm...I do 90min boils most of the time, especially when I'm using a significant amount of Pilsner malt. With as much hopping as this has, I doubt you're going to notice traces of DMS in any case. I don't really see a point to three full hours. You'll get slightly elevated melanoidin production, but I'm not sure that's even desirable for this recipe by the looks of it.

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Agreed, I've never had DMS issues either. Perhaps if I was submitiing this for a competition or something, then I may go for the full 3 hours. The longest I've done was 2 hours and that was while assisting my dad with a Samichlaus clone. I might dial it down to 90 or 120 minutes and see how it all comes out.

dcp27 said:

I think its just what HOTD likes to do. I've seen it in a few of their recipes

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Hmmm, following the "If it aint broke don't fix it" method perhaps. And I'm sure they're not boiling with a 20lb propane tank!

Revvy said:

I didn't see this mentioned, but it all depends on which default scale the software uses. It's got to be the same scale the BYO magaizine uses. Or else the numbers aren't going to jibe.

There's plenty of threads on here discussing it. Somewhere it should tell you what the default setting is, and even give you the option to change it. Even on the free Beercalculus website.

Here's an explanation of how Beercalculus calculates it from their Hopville Blog;


One of the most recent thread discussing this is here. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f84/different-ibus-provided-different-software-218066/

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Thanks Revvy. I feel like there are brewers on this site that have forotten more about brewing than I know yet!!!

But in a nutshell I should probably just focus on the early additions of higher AA hops for more bitterness and then once that number comes close to 100 focus on the aroma/flavor hops later in the boil or through dry hopping.

There is a difference between actual IBUs and what home brewers calculate on 5 and 10 gallon batches. Too many variables that the calculators just don't know. My IPAs calculate to 70 IBUs but are no more bitter than local Pale Ales that have been tested to be 40-50.

BendBrewer said:

There is a difference between actual IBUs and what home brewers calculate on 5 and 10 gallon batches. Too many variables that the calculators just don't know. My IPAs calculate to 70 IBUs but are no more bitter than local Pale Ales that have been tested to be 40-50.

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Well that's discouraging. Mabe I should just go with the full clone recipe. The level of bitterness is what I really like about this Blue Dot IIPA, and if that doesnt come through, then it'll be frustraiting.

Wasn't meant to discourage. Was trying to suggest that you don't have as wide of a gap as the numbers might suggest.

I know I need to get my recipe up to about 70 IBUs to get the bitterness that I want. The fact taht it is really 40-50 IBU doesn't bother me.

BendBrewer said:

Wasn't meant to discourage. Was trying to suggest that you don't have as wide of a gap as the numbers might suggest.

I know I need to get my recipe up to about 70 IBUs to get the bitterness that I want. The fact taht it is really 40-50 IBU doesn't bother me.

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Much appreciated, and I didn't mean it to sound down. I just want to nail this IPA.

If you're going to scale the bittering down, I wouldn't go as low as exactly 100IBUs. You definitely want to make sure you achieve max bitterness on this. I suspect that if you add what a calculator tells you will achieve 100IBU, you'll undershoot it. Maybe aim for 150.

kanzimonson said:

If you're going to scale the bittering down, I wouldn't go as low as exactly 100IBUs. You definitely want to make sure you achieve max bitterness on this. I suspect that if you add what a calculator tells you will achieve 100IBU, you'll undershoot it. Maybe aim for 150.

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Good call. Go big or go home right?