Minerals needed for fermentation or not?

My cities water report doesn't say anything about the Bicarbonate or total Alkalinity, and I have trouble creating any hop flavor or aroma in my IPA's, but do get an astringent bitterness as described in Palmers book on page 39.
To eliminate this concen as well as removal of Chloramine and others I will try a batch of extract with distilled water. Palmer also states that enough Calcium and Magnesium will be in the extract for the yeast during fermentation, but I am not sure the extract will contain beneficial amounts of Sodium, Cloride and Sulfate. Does the Wyeast smack pack contain beneficial amounts of these three? Should I add Wyeast powdered nutrient along with the nutrient in the smack pack? Am I correct to assume that distilled water has zero percent of these minerals?

IPA problem: Post a recipe for your IPA and maybe it can be diagnosed that way. I doubt that your water is causing this problem, necessarily.

The purpose of the smack pack is to provide a head start to the yeast, I think that what's in there is primarily some kind of food source for the yeast. This basically amounts to proofing. I think that it has some nutrients, but usually people supplement this with a larger amount in the boil. Yeast nutrient contains (I think) diammonium phosphate and urea, compounds that the yeast need. It doesn't contain sodium, chloride, or sulfate (for the purpose of increasing the concentration of them in your brewing water).

Distilled water has nothing in it other than hydrogen and oxygen.

If you're concerned about mineral content, then you could try dosing some of your water into the stilled water, effectively diluting the concentrations of all of the minerals.

I think that water is HUGE, and changing to RO/distilled water is a great idea. I had a test done by Ward's Labs and found that my alkalinity was a huge problem. I now mix RO and tap water, and add calcium chloride and gypsum to the water, and it's perfect. If you don't have a water report, using just RO/distilled water will work great.

There really isn't much you need to add to RO water to make it ideal. Check out this primer for the basics: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/brewing-water-chemistry-primer-198460/

devilishprune said:

IPA problem: Post a recipe for your IPA and maybe it can be diagnosed that way. I doubt that your water is causing this problem, necessarily.

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I have brewed 12 batches of various IPA's from NB and AHBS, so the malt and hops were fresh, and I followed the instructions. I keep getting a non-hoppy, bitter and astringint taste that will not go away even after 6-7 months in the bottles. Some batches have been better than others though. After reading Palmers book again I found his description of a bitter astringint taste which sounds like mine. I just figured eliminating ALL issues associated with water quality by using distilled water might solve my problem, but wanted to be sure I have correct levels of beneficial minerals in my H2O.

i thought u was suppose to use spring water instead of distilled? at least i hope cuz thats what i bought for my last batch

Spring water is good, because the general rule of thumb is: water that tastes good will (usually) make beer that tastes good.

The general advice around here is: distilled is okay for extract, since it has minerals, but only distilled is not good for all grain, unless minerals are added.

Who knows how true that rule of thumb is, though, really.

Man, I feel like I was just totally ignored!

Distilled water is FINE. For extract batches, either spring water or distilled is fine. The extract has minerals in it, and was already mashed and processed so it truly doesn't matter. If your tap water tastes good and makes good beer, that's fine too!

For all-grain, you may want to use RO or distilled water, and add back a little CaCl2. Seriously, read the link I posted. It's the best water primer you'll find, and then you actually get expert advice from an expert, not fellow brewers (who don't know your water profile) opining on how it is.

If your water is highly alkaline, I would be willing to bet that is the problem with your beer. Before I had my water tested, I knew my water was hard but I didn't know much else. I could make fantastic stouts, but my kolsch was astringent and my pale ales were a little harsh. Once I did some of the water changes that were suggested, my beers improved to commercial quality.

I hope you don't feel I ignored you, Yooper.

I was just saying what everyone says, not impersonating an expert.

I think what I said was consistent with what you said; when doing all-grain, something should be added to distilled.

If anyone has the choice of taking my brew advice or yours, I heartily recommend that they take yours.

Justibone said:

I hope you don't feel I ignored you, Yooper.

I was just saying what everyone says, not impersonating an expert.

I think what I said was consistent with what you said; when doing all-grain, something should be added to distilled.

If anyone has the choice of taking my brew advice or yours, I heartily recommend that they take yours.

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Oh, I wasn't taking issue with you! It's just that some "spring water" can just be city tap water anyway. I know where I live there is a water company located in Crystal Falls, Michican. They sell "Crystal Spring Water". It's a big seller, and it comes directly from the Crystal Falls City Water System. We have great water here, it's true- but it's NOT great brewing water. It's hard and highly alkaline, but tastes awesome.

So, spring water is not necessarily better than tap water. Distilled water is better, in that you know what you're getting- pretty close to nothing. With extract, the mash was already done with the maker's water, so using distilled water is absolutely fine for extract. It's generally fine for AG, too, especially if making a pilsner or other beer that works great with soft water. If you want to make it perfect, instead of "fine", there are some additions that can be made but it's not really necessary in some instances.

Some people make awesome beer with spring water. But it's also possible to do the same with distilled or even tap water. It really depends on the water make up. My feeling is when it doubt, start with RO or distilled and see how it comes out. If it's great, then no changes are needed.

Yooper_Brew said:

Man, I feel like I was just totally ignored!

Distilled water is FINE. For extract batches, either spring water or distilled is fine. The extract has minerals in it, and was already mashed and processed so it truly doesn't matter. If your tap water tastes good and makes good beer, that's fine too!

For all-grain, you may want to use RO or distilled water, and add back a little CaCl2. Seriously, read the link I posted. It's the best water primer you'll find, and then you actually get expert advice from an expert, not fellow brewers (who don't know your water profile) opining on how it is.

If your water is highly alkaline, I would be willing to bet that is the problem with your beer. Before I had my water tested, I knew my water was hard but I didn't know much else. I could make fantastic stouts, but my kolsch was astringent and my pale ales were a little harsh. Once I did some of the water changes that were suggested, my beers improved to commercial quality.

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Yooper-Brew, Thanks for the link. My water tastes great, but I have had the bitterness issue when brewing IPA's. Based on your link to water and brewing, it appears to be safe to assume distilled water will work for most extract beers. Would you recommend adding something back into the water if brewing an extract IPA?

nasmeyer said:

Yooper-Brew, Thanks for the link. My water tastes great, but I have had the bitterness issue when brewing IPA's. Based on your link to water and brewing, it appears to be safe to assume distilled water will work for most extract beers. Would you recommend adding something back into the water if brewing an extract IPA?

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No. Not the first time. It should be great with plain RO or distilled water. If you find that the hops aren't "crisp" enough, then you could try using some gypsum in the next batch. No more than 5 grams (about a teaspoon) should do it. But I'd try it without the first time, to get a "base" and see how it tastes. I think you'll be happy with that!

Yooper_Brew said:

No. Not the first time. It should be great with plain RO or distilled water. If you find that the hops aren't "crisp" enough, then you could try using some gypsum in the next batch. No more than 5 grams (about a teaspoon) should do it. But I'd try it without the first time, to get a "base" and see how it tastes. I think you'll be happy with that!

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Thanks for the Gypsum suggestion. Is it safe to assume malt extract is made with a "correct" water profile for brewing? or might it be possible that water from whatever city the extract was made in was used from the municiple water supply and not the best for brewing?