Is this a proper batch sparge?

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sarsnik

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I'm brewing tomorrow and want to hit my OG for once.

1. Mash as normal

2. Drain first runnings slowly (I've heard that draining slowly is better even for a batch sparge)

3. Pour half of sparge water, and raise grain bed temp to 170. Stir thoroughly. Let grain bed settle for 5ish mins, then drain slowly.

4. Pour the last half of the sparge water, stir well again, then drain slowly.


What I'm not sure about: Do I need to drain the batches slowly? Also, I've heard that your not supposed to stir the second sparge batch (third runnings) but I'm not sure why - can anyone confirm this?

Thanks in advance for your help.
 
sarsnik said:
I'm brewing tomorrow and want to hit my OG for once.

1. Mash as normal

2. Drain first runnings slowly (I've heard that draining slowly is better even for a batch sparge)

3. Pour half of sparge water, and raise grain bed temp to 170. Stir thoroughly. Let grain bed settle for 5ish mins, then drain slowly.

4. Pour the last half of the sparge water, stir well again, then drain slowly.


What I'm not sure about: Do I need to drain the batches slowly? Also, I've heard that your not supposed to stir the second sparge batch (third runnings) but I'm not sure why - can anyone confirm this?

Thanks in advance for your help.
Click to expand...

1. Yes.
2. No need. Batch sparging is fast- that's the point. Open it up and let 'er rip. No advantage to draining slowly at all in a batch sparge..
3. Again, stir well. vorlauf, and let 'er rip.
4. As number 3.

Stir, stir, stir, stir. That's what makes an effective batch sparge!
 
Thats how I've been doing it, filling the mash tun with 2.25g of 168F water two additional times after first runnings, to get a 6g preboil volume.

I actually had a similar question for anyone else posting: can you use the same water twice (drain the 2.25g from the mt then recirculate again through the mash) without affecting astringency? The reason I ask is because I'm getting horrible efficiency when batch sparging.
 
steven85 said:
can you use the same water twice (drain the 2.25g from the mt then recirculate again through the mash) without affecting astringency? The reason I ask is because I'm getting horrible efficiency when batch sparging.
Click to expand...


Just a guess, but I would look at your crush. No way should you need to recirculate runnings as you propose. Batch sparge IS easy and foolproof IMO w/ the right crush.
 
What do you mean you're not hitting your OG? Your OG is simply the OG you get.

The problem may very well have nothing to do with the process, and be entirely due to assuming too high of a brewhouse efficiency.

Do you know what your brewhouse efficiency is? Do you know what % efficiency is being assumed for the recipes you're brewing?

If you don't know the above, can you give an example of a recipe you did, and include both the OG that you got, and the OG you think you should've gotten? Also, if the volume you ended up with was even a bit different from the recipe, that is also important.
 
I mean OG relative to what beersmith has calculated. Beersmith calculates at 70% by default, and I miss this mark by 5-10 pts sometimes. So I can assume my efficiency is less than 70%, normally around 60% I believe.
 
steven85 said:
Thats how I've been doing it, filling the mash tun with 2.25g of 168F water two additional times after first runnings, to get a 6g preboil volume.

I actually had a similar question for anyone else posting: can you use the same water twice (drain the 2.25g from the mt then recirculate again through the mash) without affecting astringency? The reason I ask is because I'm getting horrible efficiency when batch sparging.
Click to expand...

Your problem lies with the temperature of your water. If you are trying to raise the mash to 168*, you can not add 168 degree water. I always batch sparge my first batch with 180 degree water and the second one around 170. Works well.
 
sarsnik said:
I mean OG relative to what beersmith has calculated. Beersmith calculates at 70% by default, and I miss this mark by 5-10 pts sometimes. So I can assume my efficiency is less than 70%, normally around 60% I believe.
Click to expand...

There's nothing necessarily wrong with a 60% efficiency system...
 
As far as the speed of run off, I have found that starting slow produces cleaner running's sooner. Also, with a high wheat or oatmeal content beer, starting slow seems to set the grain bed around my braid better, eliminating a slow/stuck sparge. So, I go nice and slow during vorlauf, then I can open it up once the bed is set. And like Yooper said, stir the heck out of it with each water addition.
 
PolarisSnT said:
Your problem lies with the temperature of your water. If you are trying to raise the mash to 168*, you can not add 168 degree water. I always batch sparge my first batch with 180 degree water and the second one around 170. Works well.
Click to expand...

^^THIS
It made a huge difference when I started batch sparging. On my system I usually need about 184* for the first sparge in order to raise the mash temp to 168-169.
 
Backporchbrewery said:
^^THIS
It made a huge difference when I started batch sparging. On my system I usually need about 184* for the first sparge in order to raise the mash temp to 168-169.
Click to expand...

For me, if I batch sparge, my first sparge addition is actually over 190 degrees to get my grain bed up to 168! Then the second addition is 168, since the grain bed is already there.

I don't think this will have a huge effect on efficiency, though. What it does is help a bit, to make the sugars a bit more soluble, but mostly it's used to denature the enzymes in the mash and preserve the mash profile.
 
Yooper said:
For me, if I batch sparge, my first sparge addition is actually over 190 degrees to get my grain bed up to 168! Then the second addition is 168, since the grain bed is already there.

I don't think this will have a huge effect on efficiency, though. What it does is help a bit, to make the sugars a bit more soluble, but mostly it's used to denature the enzymes in the mash and preserve the mash profile.
Click to expand...

Actually, as Kai showed, hotter water does not necessarily mean that the less viscous sugars give you greater efficiency. What really happens by increasing your temp is that you get more complete conversion. Also, unless you hold tempos in excess of 170 for more than 20 min. you are not denaturing the enzymes.
 
my mt is direct fire, so raise everything to 184, drain, then add 170f water to sparge? Beersmith calculated my last brew at 48%, pretty low if you ask me.... I follow the batch sparge directions in beersmith, 2.25g twice, but im not getting good efficiency. so mash out at 180F instead, then add 170F water for the 2nd and 3rd runnings? I'm mashing right now actually, so any feedback would be greatly appreciated. 45 minutes left in the mash!
 
Denny, can you explain how you get a more complete conversion by raising the temp? My understanding is:

Mash at lower temps, say 150 F, and the enzymes munch away to create the sugars leaving less complex carbs and a lighter body. But even after a couple hours at these temps, the enzymes deactivate.

At a higher mash temp, say 158 F, the enzymes are not as efficient and they deactivate more quickly leaving less fermentables.

At an even higher mash temp, you'd be lucky to get any fermentables because the enzymes deactivate quickly.

So, if you start a mash at 152 F and raise the temp to 168 at mash out, how does that make a more complete conversion? I'd assume you are just stopping the enzymes and keeping your mash profile (somewhat light to medium body). Your efficiency is what it is at that point, as once the temp is raised the enzymes cease to do their magic. You are not converting any more complex carbs to maltose etc.

I did a mash today - held at 151 F for an hour. Raised the temp to 160 for 10 minutes and recirculated a gallon or so. Drained and sparged to raise the temp to 170 (while starting the first runnings to boil), held for a few, recirced a gallon, and drained. I got somewhere around 85% efficiency. It was glorious, though some of the recirculating may be unnecessary.
 
barleyhole said:
Denny, can you explain how you get a more complete conversion by raising the temp? My understanding is:

Mash at lower temps, say 150 F, and the enzymes munch away to create the sugars leaving less complex carbs and a lighter body. But even after a couple hours at these temps, the enzymes deactivate.

At a higher mash temp, say 158 F, the enzymes are not as efficient and they deactivate more quickly leaving less fermentables.

At an even higher mash temp, you'd be lucky to get any fermentables because the enzymes deactivate quickly.

So, if you start a mash at 152 F and raise the temp to 168 at mash out, how does that make a more complete conversion? I'd assume you are just stopping the enzymes and keeping your mash profile (somewhat light to medium body). Your efficiency is what it is at that point, as once the temp is raised the enzymes cease to do their magic. You are not converting any more complex carbs to maltose etc.

I did a mash today - held at 151 F for an hour. Raised the temp to 160 for 10 minutes and recirculated a gallon or so. Drained and sparged to raise the temp to 170 (while starting the first runnings to boil), held for a few, recirced a gallon, and drained. I got somewhere around 85% efficiency. It was glorious, though some of the recirculating may be unnecessary.
Click to expand...

I think the chart below will help answer some of your questions. Alpha amylase enzymes are active until nearly 170F. At the temps you note, very ;little alpha amylase comes into play. As you raise the temp, you activate more alpha amylase, encouraging further mash conversion. That's what's mainly happening when you raise the temp at the end of the mash. If you want to denature the enzymes, you need to hold temps above 170F for more than 20 min.

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