First lager, need some advice

Well, once again I need some help here. Planning on doing my first lager in the next few days. Maibock extract kit with specialty grains, details below. The problem is, I got lazy and the liquid yeast I ordered is so old it won't start up , and I'm now stuck with a packet of S-23, the only thing my LHBS had on hand.

1. First of all, anything wrong with using this yeast?
2. Does rehydrating and pitching at 55 degrees or so sound right?
3. Do I have to chill the rehydrated yeast down to those temps, or can it be at room temp when I pitch?
4. Palmer says to ferment this yeast around 54 or so, sound right?

Sorry for the dumb questions, there's not much out there on dry lager yeast.

OG 1.065

Specialty grains:
2.5 lb. German Pilsen malt
0.5 lb. Munich malt

Extract:
6 lb. extra pale liquid
1 lb. Munich liquid

Hops:
2 oz. Saaz for 60
0.5 oz. Hallertau for 15
05. oz. Hallertau for 5

to answer your questions
#1 s-23 in my opinion sucks some seem to like it but I think it tastes fruity.
#2 its best to rehydrate. I usually ferment lagers at 50f but I heard s-23 does better around 55f.
#3 its best to pitch yeast close to ferm temp
#4 yeah 54f should be fine.

Ok, thanks for your input. I don't mind paying for some new yeast, but there's nothing else I need to order right now and I hate to pay shipping for just a pack of yeast. But, I also hate to waste good ingredients, so I may have to break down and do it anyway. Thanks again.

I would use the S-23, but with an OG that high I would pitch 2 packs. I would also pitch at room temp and at the first sign of fermentation move the primary to a cooler location. I have a converted frig I lager in, but I have found I am just as happy with an ale that is less trouble and faster to consume. Lagers are too much of a pain.

Unless you're making a big starter you might want to think about picking up 2-4 packs of yeast.

Ok, good thoughts. But I'm confused, a starter with dry yeast? I have no problem doing this, especially if it would prevent me from going back and getting a second pack (way across town). Same procedure as with liquid yeast?

MuchoGusto, so you're saying you would pitch with the rehydrated yeast and the wort at room temp, or just the yeast?

Sorry guys, just love Maibocks and don't want to screw this one up. Taking up my lagering chest for a couple of months also, so want to do it right.

+1 for using at least 2 packs of yeast for a lager. If you're fermenting at 55 degrees you shouldn't have any issues.

Here is some info I've got from various sources on lagering techniques:

Light American lagers are typically held near freezing for 10–20 days, while some strong German doppelbocks are lagered as long as six months. For medium to high-gravity beers, Greg Noonan — brewpub owner and author of “New Brewing Lager Beer” (1996, Brewers Publications) — recommends 7–12 days per each 2 °Plato of original gravity. (One degree Plato is roughly equal to 4 specific gravity “points.&#8221. For lower gravity lagers the time is reduced to 3–7 days. According to those guidelines, a 1.064 O.G. German bock should be lagered for 112–192 days, while a 1.040 American lager would be lagered 15–35 days. The correct temperature for Lagering should be between 33–35° F (0.6-1.7° C). This temperature range is the same for lagers or ales and should last for 1 month minimum.

how old is your liquid yeast that it won't start?

definitely pitch closer to ferm temp than warmer

dcp27 said:

how old is your liquid yeast that it won't start?

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Wyeast smack pack, dated February 2011 and has been "smacked" for probably eight or nine of those months (in the fridge the whole time except for initial swelling). Way too old, right?

I just looked back at my original post and realized I misspoke. I never actually tried to revive the yeast, just assumed that eleven months was too old to even try.

I'd bet it'd still start, you just may need to start a lil smaller and step it up. you'll need a pretty big starter tho, so might be worth using the S-23 too

woopig said:

Ok, good thoughts. But I'm confused, a starter with dry yeast? I have no problem doing this, especially if it would prevent me from going back and getting a second pack (way across town). Same procedure as with liquid yeast?

MuchoGusto, so you're saying you would pitch with the rehydrated yeast and the wort at room temp, or just the yeast?

Sorry guys, just love Maibocks and don't want to screw this one up. Taking up my lagering chest for a couple of months also, so want to do it right.

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I've never made a starter with dry yeast. Someone else can chime in on that.

YES, I would pitch at room temp both the wort and yeast. READ the instructions on the S-23. http://www.fermentis.com/fo/pdf/HB/EN/Saflager_S-23_HB.pdf You can pitch it dry or rehydrated. White Labs German Bock WPL833 calls for pitching into 70-75 degree wort until fermentation begins for a quick start and then lowering the temp slowly to 48-55F degrees.

Pitching at room temp will not be a problem in getting things started quickly. You'll be doing a dyactel rest anyway at the end of fermentation. Everything will clean up just fine.

MuchoGusto said:

READ the instructions on the S-23.

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Yeah, I actually did read that same page. But it contradicts what I've been reading in Brewing Classic Styles so wasn't sure which method would be best with this yeast.

MuchoGusto said:

Pitching at room temp will not be a problem in getting things started quickly. You'll be doing a dyactel rest anyway at the end of fermentation. Everything will clean up just fine.

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its not a diacetyl worry. pitching above ferment temp is a good way to get extra esters and can lead to the yeast being sluggish or floccing out when you drop the temp. you should always pitch within 5F or so of your ferment temp.

from wyeast: The best results will be achieved by pitching at least 12 million cells per milliliter into cold and well aerated wort (48 to 58°F, 9 to 15°C).
Wyeast Laboratories : Home Enthusiasts : Brewers : Technical Information : Lager Brewing

dcp27 said:

its not a diacetyl worry. pitching above ferment temp is a good way to get extra esters and can lead to the yeast being sluggish or floccing out when you drop the temp. you should always pitch within 5F or so of your ferment temp.

from wyeast: The best results will be achieved by pitching at least 12 million cells per milliliter into cold and well aerated wort (48 to 58°F, 9 to 15°C).
Wyeast Laboratories : Home Enthusiasts : Brewers : Technical Information : Lager Brewing

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So.... White Labs, being the experts, don't know what they're talking about.

MuchoGusto said:

So.... White Labs, being the experts, don't know what they're talking about.

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are you suggesting that wyeast aren't experts as well? i'm not saying that method won't work, it's good for lower pitching rates and faster starts, but its not optimal conditions.

its best to cool your wort to a couple of degrees below ferm temp and let the beer then rise to your intended fermentation temp. I have never known any experienced lager brewer suggest pitching above ferm temp and then lowering the temp. the risk of stalling the yeast is to high and the off flavers from a too warm a start is not desirable.

So, sonex, does that mean you're also on the side of cooling the rehydrated yeast down to that temp? If so, I just use an ice bath for it, I suppose?

I use liquid yeast for lagers, but yes I cool my starters down to within 5 degrees or so of the wort to be pitched into. I just cool in the frig.

woopig said:

So, sonex, does that mean you're also on the side of cooling the rehydrated yeast down to that temp? If so, I just use an ice bath for it, I suppose?

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Do what you want, but you better make a 2 liter starter if you want to pitch at fermenting temps to kick the process off.

I'll bet you a solid 100 bucks you pitch 1/2 at room temp and the other half a 55 degrees and when it's all said and done you will not be able to tell the difference.

actually I make a 4 L starter and decant the excess wort off right before pitching. You need twice the cell count for lagers compared to ales. If I only made a 2L starter for a lager I would be way under pitching.

Wow, I appreciate all the help but must admit I'm more confused than ever. Maybe I'll think of something else I need from Northern Brewer and order it along with the Wyeast and be done with it. There's always something else you need, right?