Very strong alcohol taste to beer

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shoestealer17

shoestealer17

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I tasted a Scottish/belgian style ale the other day 1 mth after brewing. It is suppose to be about 8% abv, so I thought it would take longer to age, but, I tasted it anyway and it tasted very strongly of alcohol, almost spirit like, and not much else. I am thinking the beer will take another month or so to age, but is this something that is common with young, highly alcoholic, beer? It is my first batch so I don't know what flavors a young beer might have that can mellow out with time. Is this heavy heavy alcohol flavor a note that mellos over time or does that indicate something wrong with the beer
 
Yes, the strong alcohol taste should mellow out with sufficient aging. Some times this flavor can be produced by fermenting too warm, especially early in the fermentation. To avoid it, or minimize it in the future, try fermenting towards the lower end of the fermentation range for the yeast you are using. Keep in mind that the temperature in the fermentor can be 5-10*F higher than the ambient temperature too.
 
I fermented at ~68 deg for 5 days in the primary, then I moved to a secondary for 11 days. They were both in a dark, relatively large, interior closet in my house where the temp should have stayed relatively stable. I am now aging in a keg in the same closet, it has been in the keg about 2 weeks when I tested it
 
shoestealer17 said:
I fermented at ~68 deg for 5 days in the primary, then I moved to a secondary for 11 days. They were both in a dark, interior closet in my house where the temp should have stayed relatively stable. I am now aging in a keg in the same closet, it has been in the keg about 2 weeks when I tested it
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Okay, just wanted to make sure it wasn't sitting next to your furnace or something. What the others have said is correct. For a big ale like that, count on a lot longer than 1 month. A lot of strong scottish ales get aged for a year or more.
 
Wow, I hope it doesn't take that long. More aging is what I thought though, but I was worried that my beer just sucked
 
shoestealer17 said:
I fermented at ~68 deg for 5 days in the primary, then I moved to a secondary for 11 days. They were both in a dark, relatively large, interior closet in my house where the temp should have stayed relatively stable. I am now aging in a keg in the same closet, it has been in the keg about 2 weeks when I tested it
Click to expand...

Only 5 days? Most people leave the beer on the yeast for about 3 weeks to let the yeast clean up the higher "fusel" alcohols you're probably tasting (and esters and other off-flavors). In fact, a long primary is usually better than a short primary, then secondary in my opinion.
 
rocketman768 said:
Only 5 days? Most people leave the beer on the yeast for about 3 weeks to let the yeast clean up the higher "fusel" alcohols you're probably tasting (and esters and other off-flavors). In fact, a long primary is usually better than a short primary, then secondary in my opinion.
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From what I've read that's a highly debated topic, some say that leaving it over 3 weeks produces off flavors. Does the secondary not clean up some of those things
 
Crap, more than likely if you racked it after only 5 days it wasn't even done fermenting yet....no wonder you're not liking the tast of it. My beers stay in primary for a month, then the normal grav beers spend another month carbing and conditioning. Any you're making a Belgian? Most of those like Dubbels and triples take six months to a year to lose the hot alcohol taste.

This isn't coolaid we're making here.
 
shoestealer17 said:
From what I've read that's a highly debated topic, some say that leaving it over 3 weeks produces off flavors. Does the secondary not clean up some of those things
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No way, not highly debated at all, at least around here. The only possible way you can get MORE off flavors from a long primary is if you leave it on there for months until the yeast die and lyse, releasing their cell contents into the beer (but this would be extremely obvious in taste: tastes like meat or poo).

The thing to keep in mind is that living yeast clean up off-flavors. All a secondary does (or used to do), is clear the beer of suspended yeast (which reduces yeasty tastes), but most people you talk to on here will tell you that you can do the same thing in primary.
 
Why so hostile revvy? Just because you leave it for a long time doesn't mean that's the only right way to do it. I know it's not done fermenting after 5 days because the airlock was still bubbling, very slowly, in the secondary. I've talked to many homebrewers that transfer it to a secondary when the Krausen drops and make great beer. There are many ways to make a good beer.
All I was asking about was the flavors the mellow out when a beer ages
 
rocketman768 said:
No way, not highly debated at all, at least around here. The only possible way you can get MORE off flavors from a long primary is if you leave it on there for months until the yeast die and lyse, releasing their cell contents into the beer (but this would be extremely obvious in taste: tastes like meat or poo).

The thing to keep in mind is that living yeast clean up off-flavors. All a secondary does (or used to do), is clear the beer of suspended yeast (which reduces yeasty tastes), but most people you talk to on here will tell you that you can do the same thing in primary.
Click to expand...

It's only debatable by people not up on the latest truths, and operatin on sime mistaken premises that even the authors who MADE those mistaken premises have realized they were wrong.

This is the latest recommendation, it is the same one many of us have been giving for several years on here.

John Palmer said:
Tom from Michigan asks:
I have a few questions about secondary fermentations. I've read both pros and cons for 2nd fermentations and it is driving me crazy what to do. One, are they necessary for lower Gravity beers?
Two, what is the dividing line between low gravity and high gravity beers? Is it 1.060 and higher?
Three, I have an American Brown Ale in the primary right now, a SG of 1.058, Should I secondary ferment this or not?
Your advice is appreciated, thanks for all you do!

Allen from New York asks:
John, please talk about why or why not you would NOT use a secondary fermenter (bright tank?) and why or why not a primary only fermentation is a good idea. In other words, give some clarification or reason why primary only is fine, versus the old theory of primary then secondary normal gravity ale fermentations.

Palmer answers:
These are good questions – When and why would you need to use a secondary fermenter? First some background – I used to recommend racking a beer to a secondary fermenter. My recommendation was based on the premise that (20 years ago) larger (higher gravity) beers took longer to ferment completely, and that getting the beer off the yeast reduced the risk of yeast autolysis (ie., meaty or rubbery off-flavors) and it allowed more time for flocculation and clarification, reducing the amount of yeast and trub carryover to the bottle. Twenty years ago, a homebrewed beer typically had better flavor, or perhaps less risk of off-flavors, if it was racked off the trub and clarified before bottling. Today that is not the case.

The risk inherent to any beer transfer, whether it is fermenter-to-fermenter or fermenter-to-bottles, is oxidation and staling. Any oxygen exposure after fermentation will lead to staling, and the more exposure, and the warmer the storage temperature, the faster the beer will go stale.

Racking to a secondary fermenter used to be recommended because staling was simply a fact of life – like death and taxes. But the risk of autolysis was real and worth avoiding – like cholera. In other words, you know you are going to die eventually, but death by cholera is worth avoiding.

But then modern medicine appeared, or in our case, better yeast and better yeast-handling information. Suddenly, death by autolysis is rare for a beer because of two factors: the freshness and health of the yeast being pitched has drastically improved, and proper pitching rates are better understood. The yeast no longer drop dead and burst like Mr. Creosote from Monty Python’s The Meaning of Life when fermentation is complete – they are able to hibernate and wait for the next fermentation to come around. The beer has time to clarify in the primary fermenter without generating off-flavors. With autolysis no longer a concern, staling becomes the main problem. The shelf life of a beer can be greatly enhanced by avoiding oxygen exposure and storing the beer cold (after it has had time to carbonate).

Therefore I, and Jamil and White Labs and Wyeast Labs, do not recommend racking to a secondary fermenter for ANY ale, except when conducting an actual second fermentation, such as adding fruit or souring. Racking to prevent autolysis is not necessary, and therefore the risk of oxidation is completely avoidable. Even lagers do not require racking to a second fermenter before lagering. With the right pitching rate, using fresh healthy yeast, and proper aeration of the wort prior to pitching, the fermentation of the beer will be complete within 3-8 days (bigger = longer). This time period includes the secondary or conditioning phase of fermentation when the yeast clean up acetaldehyde and diacetyl. The real purpose of lagering a beer is to use the colder temperatures to encourage the yeast to flocculate and promote the precipitation and sedimentation of microparticles and haze.

So, the new rule of thumb: don’t rack a beer to a secondary, ever, unless you are going to conduct a secondary fermentation.
Click to expand...

THIS is where the latest discussion and all your questions answered.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/secondary-not-john-palmer-jamil-zainasheff-weigh-176837/

We basically proved that old theory wrong on here 5 years ago, and now the rest fo the brewing community is catching up. Though a lot of old dogs don't tend to follow the latest news, and perpetuate the old stuff.

The autolysis from prolong yeast contact has fallen by the wayside, in fact yeast contact is now seen as a good thing.

All my beers sit a minimum of 1 month in the primary. And I recently bottled a beer that sat in primary for 5.5 months with no ill effects.....

You'll find that more and more recipes these days do not advocate moving to a secondary at all, but mention primary for a month, which is starting to reflect the shift in brewing culture that has occurred in the last 4 years, MOSTLY because of many of us on here, skipping secondary, opting for longer primaries, and writing about it. Recipes in BYO have begun stating that in their magazine. I remember the "scandal" it caused i the letters to the editor's section a month later, it was just like how it was here when we began discussing it, except a lot more civil than it was here. But after the Byo/Basic brewing experiment, they started reflecting it in their recipes.
 
shoestealer17 said:
Why so hostile revvy? Just because you leave it for a long time doesn't mean that's the only right way to do it. I know it's not done fermenting after 5 days because the airlock was still bubbling, very slowly, in the secondary. I've talked to many homebrewers that transfer it to a secondary when the Krausen drops and make great beer. There are many ways to make a good beer.
All I was asking about was the flavors the mellow out when a beer ages
Click to expand...

Whoa, I don't think there was any hostility there. Calm down e'erbody.
 
shoestealer17 said:
Why so hostile revvy? Just because you leave it for a long time doesn't mean that's the only right way to do it. I know it's not done fermenting after 5 days because the airlock was still bubbling, very slowly, in the secondary. I've talked to many homebrewers that transfer it to a secondary when the Krausen drops and make great beer. There are many ways to make a good beer.
All I was asking about was the flavors the mellow out when a beer ages
Click to expand...

Uh, I wasn't be hostile just giving you information...If anyones got a bug upn their a$$ it's you. You ask why your beer tastes hot? Well you know why now....that's all. You need to give it time.
 
Revvy said:
Uh, I wasn't be hostile just giving you information...If anyones got a bug upn their a$$ it's you. You ask why your beer tastes hot? Well you know why now....that's all. You need to give it time.
Click to expand...

Then I apologize, and thank you for your help.
Especially the article posted above. I'm going to read it in full once I get back to the house
 
Well if you're open to reading about stuff, you might want to read about why it's not advisable if you ARE choosing to secondary why you should actually wait til fermentation is complete. Just because you know other homebrewers who do so, doesn't mean their necessarily making the best beer, does it?

But if I do secondary (which I hardly do anymore), I wait a minimum 14 days, taking a grav reading on day 12 and then a second one on day 14 to confirm that fermentation is complete before racking over. Then again I wait til 1 week before my intended bottling time before I add my hops. In the case for example of my barleywine in my sigline below, It's going to be in secondary for at least 6 months before I add my dry hops.

Another think. I'm always hesitant about any instructions that say to do anything to your beer based on a set schedule, that doesn't ALSO say "Confirm that fermentation is complete with GRAVITY READINGS before you move your beer."

If you arbitrarily move your beer, like to follow the silly 1-2-3 rule (or instructions that say move after a week or when bubbles slow down), you will often interrupt fermentation. Because sometimes the yeast won't even begin to ferment your beer until 72 hours after yeast pitch, so if you rush the beer off the yeast on day 7 then you are only allowing the yeast a few days to work. The problem is that yeast don't know how to read so they seldom follow the instructions. They dance to their own tune and its seldom 4 x 4 Time.

This often leads to stuck fermentation because you have removed the beer from the very stuff you need to ferment your beer. The yeast....It can often lead to the same off flavors one gets if they undrpitch their yeast.

Besides, fermenting the beer is just a part of what the yeast do. If you leave the beer alone, they will go back and clean up the byproducts of fermentation that often lead to off flavors. That's why many brewers skip secondary and leave our beers alone in primary for a month. It leaves plenty of time for the yeast to ferment, clean up after themselves and then fall out, leveing our beers crystal clear, with a tight yeast cake.

SO even if you do rack I argue that waiting a bit is STILL a good thing.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/multiple-questions-about-secondary-fermentation-140978/#post1601829
 
shoestealer17 said:
I fermented at ~68 deg for 5 days in the primary, then I moved to a secondary for 11 days. They were both in a dark, relatively large, interior closet in my house where the temp should have stayed relatively stable. I am now aging in a keg in the same closet, it has been in the keg about 2 weeks when I tested it
Click to expand...

shoestealer17 said:
Wow, I hope it doesn't take that long. More aging is what I thought though, but I was worried that my beer just sucked
Click to expand...

I know you may be tired of getting advice at this point, and I agree with the thrust of many of the comments made above, I primary for about a month and am happy with the results, BUT...:eek:


If your temps are ambient temps, then you were probably pushing the high side of what is recommended for most ale yeasts. Remember the yeast are living and they produce heat, so the temperature in the fermenter is often at least 5-10 degrees Fahrenheit above room temperature. This means you could easily have been fermenting at 73-78*F. Especially with a vigorous fermentation.

If you ferment cooler, like at 60-62*F you will nit be as likely to stress the yeast and have them producing as many fusel alcohols. Then you will not need to age as long.

I just bottled a Wee Heavy at the start of the month that finished up around 8% abv. I fermented at 60*F ambient, it got up to about 66*F on the Fermometer, and let it sit in the primary for a month, there was almost NO hot alcohol taste, very slight, and after two weeks in the bottle it was GONE.

So, keep it cooler and you can avoid the problem in the first place. You will still want to let it condition, you should still let it primary longer than 5 days, and you should still not move it until the gravity is stable. BUT, you won't have to wait as long for the burn to subside.

Just my 2 cents, watch those temps! :mug:

Hi temps will cause yeast to produce more fusel alcohols.
 
Thanks to everyone for the tips, all of the information is very helpful.
I guess ill be leaving my beer in the primary for about a month now, and ill let this current beer age out to reduce the hot alcohol taste.

I do have one more question though, how long can the yeast stay dormant?
I have been priming my kegs with DME (that has been boiled) while they are sitting so they can carb. After sitting in the primary for a month will the yeast still be able to wake back up and ferment the newly added DME?

Also, are yall using a plastic bucket or carboy for a primary? Ive heard (another old wives tale i guess) that the plastic will allow oxygen though eventually, ive also heard that todays plastics dont because theyre a better grade plastic.
 
Hey,

I recently brewed a beer somewhat like yours. This was my first big beer, starting at 1.062 and ending at 1.010... about 7%. Previously I had only done up to 5.2 ABV beers, and most of my other beers (I have done 11 or 12) were session beers that had an OG of 1.040 or less. The point is, I had no experience with strong beers and when I tasted my beer at 5, 10 and 14 days I was really depressed, I thought something went wrong. It tasted hot, like booze and just generally nasty. I just kind of forgot about it for a couple of weeks (I stuck it in the fridge) and then bottled it.

I tried the beer yesterday, and although flat (I just bottled 3 days ago), the taste has done a complete 360. It's a great beer now. It just needed time to mature. So yeah, just hang in there, and most importantly don't throw it away or keg it. Bottle it and just let time do its magic. I know that in another 2 weeks to a month, this beer is going to be incredible!
 
badmajon said:
Hey,

I recently brewed a beer somewhat like yours. This was my first big beer, starting at 1.062 and ending at 1.010... about 7%. Previously I had only done up to 5.2 ABV beers, and most of my other beers (I have done 11 or 12) were session beers that had an OG of 1.040 or less. The point is, I had no experience with strong beers and when I tasted my beer at 5, 10 and 14 days I was really depressed, I thought something went wrong. It tasted hot, like booze and just generally nasty. I just kind of forgot about it for a couple of weeks (I stuck it in the fridge) and then bottled it.

I tried the beer yesterday, and although flat (I just bottled 3 days ago), the taste has done a complete 360. It's a great beer now. It just needed time to mature. So yeah, just hang in there, and most importantly don't throw it away or keg it. Bottle it and just let time do its magic. I know that in another 2 weeks to a month, this beer is going to be incredible!
Click to expand...

That is promising advice, except, I do use my kegs to age, I dont bottle at all.
Ive heard that this method works well like bottle aging.
Im looking forward to tasting the beer in a few weeks!
 
shoestealer17 said:
Thanks to everyone for the tips, all of the information is very helpful.
I guess ill be leaving my beer in the primary for about a month now, and ill let this current beer age out to reduce the hot alcohol taste.

I do have one more question though, how long can the yeast stay dormant?
I have been priming my kegs with DME (that has been boiled) while they are sitting so they can carb. After sitting in the primary for a month will the yeast still be able to wake back up and ferment the newly added DME?

Also, are yall using a plastic bucket or carboy for a primary? Ive heard (another old wives tale i guess) that the plastic will allow oxygen though eventually, ive also heard that todays plastics dont because theyre a better grade plastic.
Click to expand...

The yeast will be fine after a month or two or six. Unless you've got a super clear beer that was in cold storage for months, you've got plenty of yeast in suspension to carb up the beer.

I use a plastic pail for primary, but I usually only leave it in there for 2-4 weeks. If I was going to age a beer for a while, I'd transfer to a carboy (either glass or plastic). Not because of the plastic, but because a bucket has a very wide headspace. After fermentation is over, and no more co2 is being produced, it's good to reduce headspace to prevent oxidation. But, that's not for a while. The beer is fine in primary, either carboy or bucket, for quite a long time. Certainly 4 weeks, but probably longer.
 
Yooper said:
The yeast will be fine after a month or two or six. Unless you've got a super clear beer that was in cold storage for months, you've got plenty of yeast in suspension to carb up the beer.

I use a plastic pail for primary, but I usually only leave it in there for 2-4 weeks. If I was going to age a beer for a while, I'd transfer to a carboy (either glass or plastic). Not because of the plastic, but because a bucket has a very wide headspace. After fermentation is over, and no more co2 is being produced, it's good to reduce headspace to prevent oxidation. But, that's not for a while. The beer is fine in primary, either carboy or bucket, for quite a long time. Certainly 4 weeks, but probably longer.
Click to expand...

Is a 5 gal carboy with a blow off tube ok to ferment in? I ask because I bought a primary bucket and a carboy origionally, and now that im not going to secondary, ide like to use the carboy to primary in also so i can have two batches going at once
 
shoestealer17 said:
That is promising advice, except, I do use my kegs to age, I dont bottle at all.
Ive heard that this method works well like bottle aging.
Im looking forward to tasting the beer in a few weeks!
Click to expand...

You could age in a keg just as well I guess, but for me that'd never work since I only have two kegs and I wouldn't want to use one up just waiting for the beer to improve. I like having bottles I can just take out whenever I feel like it.
 
Revvy said:
Uh, I wasn't be hostile just giving you information...If anyones got a bug upn their a$$ it's you. You ask why your beer tastes hot? Well you know why now....that's all. You need to give it time.
Click to expand...

shoestealer17 said:
Then I apologize, and thank you for your help.
Especially the article posted above. I'm going to read it in full once I get back to the house
Click to expand...

I'm glad that this turned very civil. But I want to remind everybody that it's NOT ok to be condescending and to watch our tones when we are talking about techniques. Just because someone does something a certain way doesn't mean it's the only correct way to do something.

Please remember that we're about friendly dialogue here, and we will keep it that way.
 
shoestealer17 said:
Is a 5 gal carboy with a blow off tube ok to ferment in? I ask because I bought a primary bucket and a carboy origionally, and now that im not going to secondary, ide like to use the carboy to primary in also so i can have two batches going at once
Click to expand...

You can try it, but you'll probably find it too small for a 5 gallon batch, even with a blow off tube. There's just not enough room for any krausen.

UNLESS you do a smaller batch, like 4 gallons.
 
rocketman768 said:
I've never had a problem bottle carbing.

Also, I really hate buckets. I am only using glass carboys now for their ease of sanitizing, and their clear-ness, and their impermeability.
Click to expand...

I LOVE buckets, they're light and easy to move even when full, they are cheap, they have never shattered and sent some one to the hospital, they are a breeze to clean, and sanitize just fine with a spray bottle of StarSan solution.

And my beer is generally not in one long enough for O2 permeability to be an issue.

:p

To each they're own though:mug:

Shoestealer, there are a few hot button topics on HBT, you've stumbled onto another one here. ;)
 
D0ug said:
Shoestealer, there are a few hot button topics on HBT, you've stumbled onto another one here. ;)
Click to expand...

Haha, yeah, I seem to do that often.

Ive found out a 5 gal carboy actually holds about 6 gallons of liquid when filled to the top. Has anyone used one for primary fermentation with a blow off tube and had good results?
I know that a 6.5 gal is better from what I read, but im trying not to buy any more equipment right now
 
Just followed the instructions to a tee. That is...w/ the exception of jacking up my kit w/ a boat load of additional fermentables.

OG at about 1.0725. After 4 days the bubbling slowed to about every 10-15 seconds. And just as instructed, I racked. Current reading was 1.0100 @ 71 degrees so based on my calc's I'm at about 8+% abv now! Hot taste? Yea...just a tad. Kept the carboy temps at or around 72 and will continue to. From what I've read here, I may leave it for a year or so until the hell mellows a bit. :)
 
Hmmmm.... I like the idea of not having to go to a secondary. Like many others I was under the impression that doing so avoided off tastes from dead yeast, anyway...
The main reason I go to the secondary is to get the beer clearer, have you guys had good luck with everything settling out and finishing up nice and clear with the same amount of time before bottling? I hope so, because if that is the case then I will be able to double the amount of beer I brew since I usually have something in the secondary!:ban:

-Barron
 
shoestealer17 said:
Is a 5 gal carboy with a blow off tube ok to ferment in? I ask because I bought a primary bucket and a carboy origionally, and now that im not going to secondary, ide like to use the carboy to primary in also so i can have two batches going at once
Click to expand...

4 gallon batches work fine in a 5gal carboy. I have two that I very rarely use and have been doing 4 gal batches in them. Just scale the recipe down to 4 gal and go for it.
 
BarronVonCharron said:
Hmmmm.... I like the idea of not having to go to a secondary. Like many others I was under the impression that doing so avoided off tastes from dead yeast, anyway...
The main reason I go to the secondary is to get the beer clearer, have you guys had good luck with everything settling out and finishing up nice and clear with the same amount of time before bottling? I hope so, because if that is the case then I will be able to double the amount of beer I brew since I usually have something in the secondary!:ban:

-Barron
Click to expand...

I did a Samuel Smith's Oatmeal Stout clone this winter. I got busy and it sat in the Ale Pale for 5 weeks, and then went into bottles.

It looked as dark as night in the glass, but when you held it up to a light, you could read the writing on the bulb through it.

Beer clears with time, regardless of the container.:mug:
 
I made a beer this summer from an extract kit (Honey Weizen from Midwest). It sat in the primary for about 3 or 4 weeks (my record keeping has improved since then, I promise). I then racked to a bottling bucket and bottled it. After about 2 weeks the beer was drinkable but had a pretty sweet taste too it (I don't remember the OG/FG readings, but the FG was probably a bit high). At that point I was just assuming that 3-4 weeks in the primary would be as fermented as it would be. Anyway, it tasted sweet for the first month or so that I was drinking it, but now, about 3 months later, it is getting that hot alcohol taste.

Since the advice in this thread is to age it longer, but that is kind of producing the opposite effect for me, I am wondering if my beer is going bad, or did that sweetness just mellow out and now the hot alcohol flavor (that was covered up by the sweetness) is just starting to be more apparent?

I did enjoy the response from Palmer about using a secondary. I have been using it for a couple of my more recent batches, but I may stop. The first AG beer I tried that had been through a secondary was ridiculously clear, though.
 

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