First, thanks to all you pro's for your advice. I've learned alot reading through these forums. I got my equipment on xmas but it was missing the hydrometer I ordered. I was so jacked about brewing that I went ahead and boiled with out it (irish red ale). Its been sitting in the primary for 9 days now. My question is, if im committed to using a sec. ferment, and i could not take an OG after boil, how do I know when to go. Many people told me a basic guideline is 7 days. The more accurate way is FG readings (but I cant compare them to the OG), others have told me wait till you see 2 or less bubbles per minute in airlock. The airlock is still going (5 per minute today) and I still have a 1/2 krausen (it never dropped) which brings me to question #2: is it normal for active ferm to last 9 days? its in a petty low temp (58 degrees but constant) but i didnt worry because the fermentation was obviously going. Thanks in advance for the info.
When to 2nd ferm if no hydrometer
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In the absence of an OG or FG reading, I'd say the best bet would be to wait at least a day or two after the krausen falls before racking to secondary.
Since you don't have a hydrometer, it's hard to tell if fermentation has finished. I suppose if you had an accurate enough scale you could weigh the carboy and note any change over the next few days, but that's probably too much effort.
at 58 degrees, 9 days doesn't seem out of the ordinary. If your hydrometer comes in the mail this week you'll be able to take a gravity reading once a day - rack over when it stays the same for two days in a row, and don't worry about leaving the beer in promary for an extra week if needed
Since you don't have a hydrometer, it's hard to tell if fermentation has finished. I suppose if you had an accurate enough scale you could weigh the carboy and note any change over the next few days, but that's probably too much effort.
at 58 degrees, 9 days doesn't seem out of the ordinary. If your hydrometer comes in the mail this week you'll be able to take a gravity reading once a day - rack over when it stays the same for two days in a row, and don't worry about leaving the beer in promary for an extra week if needed
use the 1, 2, 3 method.
1 week in primary
2 weeks in secondary
3 week in the bottle
Yes the colder the fermentation is, the longer it will take.
Jay
1 week in primary
2 weeks in secondary
3 week in the bottle
Yes the colder the fermentation is, the longer it will take.
Jay
The 1-2-3 method is one of the silliest things out there, even sillier than going by airlock action. It Doesn't factor in the lag time that often happens to our yeast (as illustrated by the "Fermentation can take 72 hours...." thread. )
If you have a 3 day lag time while the yeast is reproducing, and then arbitrarily decide to rack your beer on the 7th day, you are racking with only 4 days or so of fermentation and more than likely racking way too soon.
You see many threads were new brewers who do that panic becausue suddenly they see this ugly growth on top of their beer after a couple days in secondary. That growth we end up telling them after they post a picture is a krausen and it's because it wasn't finished fermenting to begin with, and got kicked up agin by racking.
OR they post after a week or two in secondary that their beer is stuck somewhere between 1.030 and 1.020....and we tell them that happened because they again racked too soon. and left the yeast they needed to finish the beer behind....
Or they rack over when there is still even a krauzen on top.
So I don't believe in using the 1-2-3 method unless you are counting 1 on the day you actually see a krauzened formed on top of their beer.
In Mr Wizard's colum in BYO awhile back he made an interesting analogy about brewing and baking....He said that egg timers are all well and good in the baking process but they only provide a "rule of thumb" as to when something is ready...recipes, oven types, heck even atmospheric conditions, STILL have more bearing on when a cake is ready than the time it says it will be done in the cook book. You STILL have to stick a toothpick in the center and pull it out to see if truly the cake is ready.....otherwise you may end up with a raw cake....
Not too different from our beers....We can have a rough idea when our beer is ready (or use the 1-2-3 rule which, like I said, doesn't factor in things like yeast lag time or even ambient temp during fermentation and do things to our beer willy nilly, like moving it too early, or thinking our beer is going to be drinkable at 3 weeks....but unless we actually stick "our toothpick" (the hydrometer) in and let it tell us when the yeasties are finished...we too can "f" our beer up.
You can't really do something arbitrarily, you have to learn to "read" your beers, the hydrometer is the best way to do that.
You will find that many of us leave our beers in primary for 3-4 weeks (or more) and only secondary if we are adding fruit or oak, or to dry hop (though many of us dry hop in primary now as well)....and we have found our beer vastly improved by letting the beer stay in contact with the yeast.
There's been a big shift in brewing consciousness in the last few years where many of us believe that yeast is a good thing, and besides just fermenting the beer, that they are fastidious creatures who go back and clean up any by products created by themselves during fermentation, which may lead to off flavors.
Rather than the yeast being the cause of off flavors, it is now looked at by many of us, that they will if left alone actually remove those off flavors, and make for clearer and cleaner tasting beers.
Even John Palmer talks about this in How To Bew;
If you do decide to secondary, without a hydrometer, then wait til about 14 days after you pitched yeast, that way you will make sure that the beer has finished, and also give it a couple days for the yeast to clean up the byproducts of fermentation that lead to off flavors (and more than likely won't be cleaned up in secondary away from the yeast.)
Then leave it in secondary for another 2 weeks.
But please, make your next purchase a hydromter, and learn to use it....don't rely on arbitrary idiocy like the 1-2-3 rule or airlock bubbling as your guide...they are both flawed methods...
And often you will find that the yeast have their own timeframe, and agenda, because it is they who are in charge after all, not us.
They've been doing it for 45 million years, so they are pros...
But realistically, the only way to truly know what is going on in your fermenter is with your hydrometerThink evaluation before action you sure as HELL wouldn't want a doctor to start cutting on you unless he used the proper diagnostic instuments like x-rays first, right? You wouldn't want him to just take a look in your eyes briefly and say "I'm cutting into your chest first thing in the morning." You would want them to use the right diagnostic tools before the slice and dice, right? You'd cry malpractice, I would hope, if they didn't say they were sending you for an MRI and other things before going in....
Thinking about "doing anything" without taking a hydrometer reading is tantamount to the doctor deciding to cut you open without running any diagnostic tests....Taking one look at you and saying, "Yeah I'm going in." You would really want the doctor to use all means to properly diagnose what's going on. It's exactly the same thing when you try to go by airlock....
But without a hydrometer, then WAITING is the best answer as to when to secondary (again if you choose to, many these days don't and it has even been covered on Basic Brewing Radio and in Byo, the long primary/ no secondary shift in brewing consciousness.)
Your hydrometer, like patience is your friend. Learn to use both of them and you will make great beers.
If you have a 3 day lag time while the yeast is reproducing, and then arbitrarily decide to rack your beer on the 7th day, you are racking with only 4 days or so of fermentation and more than likely racking way too soon.
You see many threads were new brewers who do that panic becausue suddenly they see this ugly growth on top of their beer after a couple days in secondary. That growth we end up telling them after they post a picture is a krausen and it's because it wasn't finished fermenting to begin with, and got kicked up agin by racking.
OR they post after a week or two in secondary that their beer is stuck somewhere between 1.030 and 1.020....and we tell them that happened because they again racked too soon. and left the yeast they needed to finish the beer behind....
Or they rack over when there is still even a krauzen on top.
So I don't believe in using the 1-2-3 method unless you are counting 1 on the day you actually see a krauzened formed on top of their beer.
In Mr Wizard's colum in BYO awhile back he made an interesting analogy about brewing and baking....He said that egg timers are all well and good in the baking process but they only provide a "rule of thumb" as to when something is ready...recipes, oven types, heck even atmospheric conditions, STILL have more bearing on when a cake is ready than the time it says it will be done in the cook book. You STILL have to stick a toothpick in the center and pull it out to see if truly the cake is ready.....otherwise you may end up with a raw cake....
Not too different from our beers....We can have a rough idea when our beer is ready (or use the 1-2-3 rule which, like I said, doesn't factor in things like yeast lag time or even ambient temp during fermentation and do things to our beer willy nilly, like moving it too early, or thinking our beer is going to be drinkable at 3 weeks....but unless we actually stick "our toothpick" (the hydrometer) in and let it tell us when the yeasties are finished...we too can "f" our beer up.
You can't really do something arbitrarily, you have to learn to "read" your beers, the hydrometer is the best way to do that.
You will find that many of us leave our beers in primary for 3-4 weeks (or more) and only secondary if we are adding fruit or oak, or to dry hop (though many of us dry hop in primary now as well)....and we have found our beer vastly improved by letting the beer stay in contact with the yeast.
There's been a big shift in brewing consciousness in the last few years where many of us believe that yeast is a good thing, and besides just fermenting the beer, that they are fastidious creatures who go back and clean up any by products created by themselves during fermentation, which may lead to off flavors.
Rather than the yeast being the cause of off flavors, it is now looked at by many of us, that they will if left alone actually remove those off flavors, and make for clearer and cleaner tasting beers.
Even John Palmer talks about this in How To Bew;
How To Brew said:
If you do decide to secondary, without a hydrometer, then wait til about 14 days after you pitched yeast, that way you will make sure that the beer has finished, and also give it a couple days for the yeast to clean up the byproducts of fermentation that lead to off flavors (and more than likely won't be cleaned up in secondary away from the yeast.)
Then leave it in secondary for another 2 weeks.
But please, make your next purchase a hydromter, and learn to use it....don't rely on arbitrary idiocy like the 1-2-3 rule or airlock bubbling as your guide...they are both flawed methods...
And often you will find that the yeast have their own timeframe, and agenda, because it is they who are in charge after all, not us.
They've been doing it for 45 million years, so they are pros...But realistically, the only way to truly know what is going on in your fermenter is with your hydrometerThink evaluation before action you sure as HELL wouldn't want a doctor to start cutting on you unless he used the proper diagnostic instuments like x-rays first, right? You wouldn't want him to just take a look in your eyes briefly and say "I'm cutting into your chest first thing in the morning." You would want them to use the right diagnostic tools before the slice and dice, right? You'd cry malpractice, I would hope, if they didn't say they were sending you for an MRI and other things before going in....
Thinking about "doing anything" without taking a hydrometer reading is tantamount to the doctor deciding to cut you open without running any diagnostic tests....Taking one look at you and saying, "Yeah I'm going in." You would really want the doctor to use all means to properly diagnose what's going on. It's exactly the same thing when you try to go by airlock....
But without a hydrometer, then WAITING is the best answer as to when to secondary (again if you choose to, many these days don't and it has even been covered on Basic Brewing Radio and in Byo, the long primary/ no secondary shift in brewing consciousness.)
Your hydrometer, like patience is your friend. Learn to use both of them and you will make great beers.
The 1-2-3 method is one of the silliest things out there, even sillier than going by airlock action. Your hydrometer, like patience is your friend. Learn to use both of them and you will make great beers.
uhhh didn't he say he didn't have a hydrometer....and in asking how and when to transfer and rack if no hydrometer is available? Or did I read the OP wrong?
Wayne1
Well-Known Member
As Revvy states, the only way to know for certain when the beer is done fermenting is to use a hydrometer. If you do not have one, go buy one asap.
You do not need to know the OG to know when the beer is done. You will not know what the alcohol content is without the OG, but you can still measure the gravity of the beer. When it reads the same for 2-3 days in a row, then you will KNOW fermentation is finished.
You do not need to know the OG to know when the beer is done. You will not know what the alcohol content is without the OG, but you can still measure the gravity of the beer. When it reads the same for 2-3 days in a row, then you will KNOW fermentation is finished.
Yeah, he doesn't have a hydrometer, and I said in there to make it his next purchase....
Revvy said:
And also said in lieu of one it is better to wait longer to rack to secondary then to arbitrarily do it after 1 week.....Which like I said doesn't factor in lag time of yeast.
I have a Belgain Wit in a carboy right now that I used harvested Hoegaarden yeast (two mason jar worth in a starter, pitched at high krausen) That STILL has a huge krausen on it....I brewed it on the 26th and it still has krausen on it....that's over 7 days.
Fermentation doesn't always adhere to a 1-2-3 schedule....but many a new brewer has blindly racked it on day 7, because they hear something like the 1-2-3 schedule, or their instructions say to, without actually paying attention to the actual beer....and then started a "problem thread," not too long after.
Thanks for the input. I do have a hydrometer now (I initially ordered one but it came a week after the rest of my equipment so I just got it on friday, but didnt have it for initial boil). Since I didnt have it for boil, I cant compare to OG. Can I still use the hydrometer to determine when to go to 2nd and will the daily readings increase risk of contamination?
Yes you can still use it to determine when to rack to secondary if you choose to use one. To do that you take two readings 3 days apart and if they are the same and within a few points of your intended final gravity, then it is ok to rack.
I usually recommend taking it on the 12th and 14th day after yeast pitch. Again to give the beer plenty of contact time on the yeast cake to finish fermentation, and to clear up any potential off flavors caused by the byproducts of the yeast during fermentations, which if allowed to the yeast will clean up.
fartingdog
Well-Known Member
Revvy hit it on the (rather verbose) head.
I'd like to reiterate a couple points
1. there is no need for a secondary -2-3 weeks in primary is fine
2. there is no need for a secondary -2-3 weeks in primary is fine
As far as your gravity, I find that when using an extract kit, if you top off to the recipe's stated starting volume, you are going to be within a point or 2 of what the recipe told you an expected OG should be. You don't have the variables such as mash efficiency to throw you off- the extract manufacturer has already done that work for you.
So, my recco for guesstimation is to use whatever the kit sez and go from there for your FG. no need to take a reading now, the fermentation is already in process.
I'd like to reiterate a couple points
1. there is no need for a secondary -2-3 weeks in primary is fine
2. there is no need for a secondary -2-3 weeks in primary is fine
As far as your gravity, I find that when using an extract kit, if you top off to the recipe's stated starting volume, you are going to be within a point or 2 of what the recipe told you an expected OG should be. You don't have the variables such as mash efficiency to throw you off- the extract manufacturer has already done that work for you.
So, my recco for guesstimation is to use whatever the kit sez and go from there for your FG. no need to take a reading now, the fermentation is already in process.
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