I enjoy that flavour though..
English Ales - What's your favorite recipe?
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Northern_Brewer
British - apparently some US company stole my name
My first question would be - what vintage are the hops? Earthiness in hops is the result of a cloudy July/August, whereas in sunny years the same hop will go more citrus/spicy.
That's relative to an average which depends on the variety - Goldings and First Gold aren't generally earthy whereas Fuggles is earthy almost always except in the really sunny years like 2018 and 2022.
Good question on the hop year, 2019, I believe, for the First Gold. It came from Northwest Hop Farms directly, they ensured me it was good as new. The EKG was whatever Midwest Supplies had in stock in their store. The IBU's are constantly changing so I am guessing things get rotated decently but there's no age indicator on the packages.
I've been chasing an elusive marmalade flavor, with a pinch of toffee perhaps. It's actually a pretty good beer, I'll enjoy it, but I would like to remove this particular flavor component (the rye / earthiness thing).
I've noticed that as these beers age, it's a flavor that doesn't really go away. I do my best to not oxidize the beer, so maybe the aging thing isn't a good indicator - I start drinking them 3 - 4 weeks after brewing them, and they last a month or so. I'm thinking if it is indeed a hop flavor I'm picking up on, it would diminish after a while.
I've been chasing an elusive marmalade flavor, with a pinch of toffee perhaps. It's actually a pretty good beer, I'll enjoy it, but I would like to remove this particular flavor component (the rye / earthiness thing).
I've noticed that as these beers age, it's a flavor that doesn't really go away. I do my best to not oxidize the beer, so maybe the aging thing isn't a good indicator - I start drinking them 3 - 4 weeks after brewing them, and they last a month or so. I'm thinking if it is indeed a hop flavor I'm picking up on, it would diminish after a while.
I brewed that 39 OBE back in Spring 22. It's still got that resinous hop layer.
Colindo
Well-Known Member
First Gold creates a harsher bitterness than other hops. Maybe one of its additions causes this flavour. Try an all-EKG version to see if that's the issue. Then from there you can add First Gold back at different points to see which ones work well.
Northern_Brewer
British - apparently some US company stole my name
That's probably it then, 2019 was a cloudy year.
Colindo
Well-Known Member
While we're at the topic, I have Northdown from the 2020 harvest and with every beer I had quite a pronounced resiny flavour. My question would be if that is normal for the hop or if that is an issue with the harvest. Especially since I know that Fuller's uses this hop and their beers taste nothing like that. Additions were always at the last five to ten minutes of the boil.
I know that the German brewery Störtebeker had the same issue when brewing the winner beer of the 2020 German beer championship. The style was Irish Red Ale and the winner's beer used Northdown in the last five minutes. The commercial result had the same resiny flavour as my beers. In an interview the winner stated that the commercial beer tasted quite different from his competition entry.
I know that the German brewery Störtebeker had the same issue when brewing the winner beer of the 2020 German beer championship. The style was Irish Red Ale and the winner's beer used Northdown in the last five minutes. The commercial result had the same resiny flavour as my beers. In an interview the winner stated that the commercial beer tasted quite different from his competition entry.
Haven't used Northdown in a while, but I believe Fullers use them in the bittering charger, no?
Last time I had Northdown it gave a sort of "piney" taste when used late, could be a question of timing with the use of it.
Last time I had Northdown it gave a sort of "piney" taste when used late, could be a question of timing with the use of it.
Haven't used Northdown in a while, but I believe Fullers use them in the bittering charger, no?
Last time I had Northdown it gave a sort of "piney" taste when used late, could be a question of timing with the use of it.
Edit: Challenger to me gives a rather similair flavour when used as a later addition.
Last time I had Northdown it gave a sort of "piney" taste when used late, could be a question of timing with the use of it.
Edit: Challenger to me gives a rather similair flavour when used as a later addition.
Colindo
Well-Known Member
Fuller's use Northdown in the last five minutes.
I haven't used Challenger for aroma yet, only bittering.
I haven't used Challenger for aroma yet, only bittering.
Awesome! Will do the same with my 1800s London porter tonight, minus the oak!
I'll transfer mine this weekend too! With oak, but not as much.
Plan on getting about 12L in to the carboy so a bit under 1g/L should be good, figure it's gonna age for a while with after the secondary so it should be a rather mellow/subtle oak character.
I'm pulling back on the oak given last year's batches of Traquair and stock ales coming out too oak-y. Quite likely I'm overcompensating and I'll wish there was more.
Already planning 2024's.
Already planning 2024's.
I never got this oak thing. I have made meads that were oaked... horrible to my taste. Beer was even worse (not mine, but literally any oaked beer i have had). Only thing I can stand oak in is strong and intense dry red wine.
I think, if Iremember correctly, oak flavour from the barrel was even considered a fault in back in the days UK. They lined their barrels from the inside so that they would not contribute any flavour.
I think, if Iremember correctly, oak flavour from the barrel was even considered a fault in back in the days UK. They lined their barrels from the inside so that they would not contribute any flavour.
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I can't immediately provide a reference, but I don't think that's true.
They lined the barrels sometimes, most often not.
American oak was disliked because of too strong oak flavour, with milder French and Hungarian preffered.
So "barrel character" was probably present in ales that were aged for some time, but they steamed the barrels to both clean them and make the oak character imparted more subtle.
American oak was disliked because of too strong oak flavour, with milder French and Hungarian preffered.
So "barrel character" was probably present in ales that were aged for some time, but they steamed the barrels to both clean them and make the oak character imparted more subtle.
Well let us find a reference or debunk my statement (I am also not 100% sure if I am making this one up tbh)... @Northern_Brewer would you mind sharing some of your knowledge?
My source is Porter! By Ron. He has a chapter in it regarding oak flavour and lining of barrels.
I think I might even have this book...
Colindo
Well-Known Member
They used a special oak from North-Eastern Prussia called Memel oak that was said to give virtually no flavour Oak and WW II
Not to think everyone's following my question about the earthy / rye flavor, but I think I stumbled across something that helps figure it out. And I mention it as an idea others might try if they are curious about what creates the various tastes?
I took a gravity sample, meaning I squirted some beer into the tall tube to prep for the hydrometer. I then covered it in plastic wrap and a tight rubber band and came back to it like 2 days later. That flavor was totally gone.
I am thinking... that means it was somewhat volatile, and likely yeast or hops, probably the latter. Because, if it was the malt, it should still be there? Is that a tricky way to remove hop (and / or yeast) smells and flavors to allow a person to focus on the malt contribution?
It's more "beer theory" I guess but of course pertains to an earlier question here about my ESB-like recipe.
I took a gravity sample, meaning I squirted some beer into the tall tube to prep for the hydrometer. I then covered it in plastic wrap and a tight rubber band and came back to it like 2 days later. That flavor was totally gone.
I am thinking... that means it was somewhat volatile, and likely yeast or hops, probably the latter. Because, if it was the malt, it should still be there? Is that a tricky way to remove hop (and / or yeast) smells and flavors to allow a person to focus on the malt contribution?
It's more "beer theory" I guess but of course pertains to an earlier question here about my ESB-like recipe.
Northern_Brewer
British - apparently some US company stole my name
Gary Gillman (beeretseq) is the man to give you (more information that you could possibly want on) wood, eg :
https://www.beeretseq.com/from-baltic-wood-to-bourbon-wood-british-beer-evolves/
https://www.beeretseq.com/from-baltic-wood-to-bourbon-wood-british-beer-evolves/
Interresting read.
I boiled the oak cubes to draw out any tannins before use, as I already knew brewers back then steamed and in other ways treated their casks to reduce flavour impact.
But I still find it hard to believe that beer aged for 6months+ in oak casks, even ones made from Memel oak, would not pick up any flavour at all from the wood, however subtle.
I boiled the oak cubes to draw out any tannins before use, as I already knew brewers back then steamed and in other ways treated their casks to reduce flavour impact.
But I still find it hard to believe that beer aged for 6months+ in oak casks, even ones made from Memel oak, would not pick up any flavour at all from the wood, however subtle.
My London 18th century inspried Porter finished with a fg of 1.035, down from 1.077. That is an attenuation of whooping 54%. The majority gets secondaried with two types of brett so the bretts surely are going to have some fun in there. The 12 0.33 bottles I managed to bottle will be closely monitored regarding overcarbonation.
I brewed this beer during the Christmas days so it had plenty of time to finish, Maybe the yeast (wlp whitbread) flocculated too hard? Maybe the big dose of Chevallier with it's high protein content drove the fg higher (that was my experience with previous Chevallier beers)? Maybe the other half of the grist, crisp imperial diastatic brown malt is finishing higher? Maybe my mash was too high and too thick for such a beer? Probably a combination of all of this?
Who knows.....
But what I know is that it does not taste sweet at all, it tastes perfectly balanced tbh. All the flavours are there, I am really looking forward to seeing how this one improves with age.
I brewed this beer during the Christmas days so it had plenty of time to finish, Maybe the yeast (wlp whitbread) flocculated too hard? Maybe the big dose of Chevallier with it's high protein content drove the fg higher (that was my experience with previous Chevallier beers)? Maybe the other half of the grist, crisp imperial diastatic brown malt is finishing higher? Maybe my mash was too high and too thick for such a beer? Probably a combination of all of this?
Who knows.....
But what I know is that it does not taste sweet at all, it tastes perfectly balanced tbh. All the flavours are there, I am really looking forward to seeing how this one improves with age.
My experience with the 2 late 1800's inspired stouts/porters I have brewed so far has been that the high proportion of brown, possibly amber and a good dose of black malt, maybe around half the base as mild malt and a dash of crystal certainly don't aid attenuation...
The second one maturing in bottles finished at ~72% AA which is probably around where these beers finished in this era, considering the fact they usually racked with a few more points to go.
Finishing low-ish is imo beneficial to these beers, to balance the hefty roast, my ~68% AA old timey porter whose keg I just started from don't taste sweet to me, but rather full and roasty, the roast prob would be overpowering if it was as dry as a modern porter.
The second one maturing in bottles finished at ~72% AA which is probably around where these beers finished in this era, considering the fact they usually racked with a few more points to go.
Finishing low-ish is imo beneficial to these beers, to balance the hefty roast, my ~68% AA old timey porter whose keg I just started from don't taste sweet to me, but rather full and roasty, the roast prob would be overpowering if it was as dry as a modern porter.
I think so too. The grist was simple, 50/50 Chevallier/Crisp Imperial, so it has a lower attenuating base malt AND 50% brown malt. I added a bit of Carafa 2 Spezial for colour. 54% is LOW, even for back in the day standards, but as long as it tastes good, all good to me! I think we should also keep in mind that beer was food back in the days and any carbs that were still in the liquid were probably just extra nutrition.
The result of this example tastes really balanced. There is actually not that much roast present, it certainly is not astringent or acrid or anything like that. I think the crisp Imperial is a really good malt, I will probably use that one in all of my future brews that require a brown malt. It is not as intense as a normal brown malt, but in a good way. So probably 10% "normal" brown malt would translate to somehting around 20-25% imperial malt.
How warm did you mash the Chev? My 90% Chev IPA was mashed at 65°C and I had similar attenuation to what I'd expect with MO.
Most my historical replications are from the time around the late 1800's - turn of the century, and to my understanding the brown malt used then was not all that different to the ~130-200 ebc stuff you can buy today.
I do not think so. The back in the days brown malt was diastatic and it was PROBABLY not evenly roasted. So kind of a mix of every degree of malt roast that we can think of from black malt to slightly toasted pale malt.
If I remeber correctly it started at about 68 C and then dropped during a prolonged 2h mash. Had to go somewhere in between... but it was planned like that.
I think you are thinking even further back, by the time I reference the drum roaster was standard and brown malt was no longer diastatic.
Oh Sorry, yes, I am referring to earlier times then.
You can see a rather stark decline in amounts of brown malt used by the 1880's somewhere, where they introduced the drum roaster and moved away from straw roasted brown malt due to the fire hazards associated with it.
That's interesting. Well, as long as you know what you got there... I'd buy myself some mild malt if I'm going to be a mild
I think only Fawcett and Muntons still market mild malt, both unavailable here.
I don't remember exactly where, but I saw something about many UK maltsters rebranding their mild malt as Vienna a few years back, hence my relative certainty that this is, in fact, actually mild malt.
And if not Vienna and mild are fairly similair types, especially if made from UK barley.
An Ankoù
Well-Known Member
I'm sure you're right. I've got two sacks of "Vienna": one from Germany (Bestmalz) which I use for lagers and Vienna Red, and the other from Crisp's made from English Spring barley, which I use for my mild. I think they're malted and roasted pretty much identically, but the barley is different.
In fact if you follow the link and scroll down to the "recipes using this malt" section.....
https://crispmalt.com/malts/vienna-malt/
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