First few ounces flat, then pours carbonated?

Last night a friend told me my beer was flat--he tasted the hefeweizen I had on tap. I was surprised to see he wasn't wrong, my sample was not carbonated well despite being held at 18-20 psi at ~40F. (This was also the very end of a keg that I had been enjoying for a while, properly carbed the whole time.)

I double checked all the connections, sloshed the keg back and forth for luck, turned up the pressure by 2 PSI just to do something, and poured some more.This time, it was fine.

There is 21 feet of 3/16 ID line on that tap though, so I think that all of the undercarbonated samples may have been the beer that was trapped in the lines. It had been sitting in there for 4-5 days, when normally... it gets exercised every day.

The beer lines are also the super cheap thin-walled variety, though they are also completely inside the refrigerated compartment with the kegs.

Can beer held in vinyl tubing go flat? That's my best guess as to what happened.

Not wanting to sound obtuse, mind if I ask why the line is so long?

The hef keg is kept at higher pressure for more carbonation. The long line length provides drag on the moving beer, so it comes out of the faucet at the proper rate. I've been using this calculator:

http://www.mikesoltys.com/2012/09/17/determining-proper-hose-length-for-your-kegerator/

My high-carb hef keg has ~21 ft, my "normal" ale kegs have ~8 ft and are kept at ~10 PSI.

Understand.

Thanks!

To answer your question, I think it's both yes and no. Yes, beer in the line can become uncarbondated over time, but no I don't think there is enough beer in your line to cause the entire pint to be flat. My lines are 8' and only about 1 oz of beer is in the line at any given time. For you, with lines almost 3 times as long, I would expect about 3-4 oz to be in your lines. Actually we can determine the exact amount fairly easily:

V = = πr²h

where
V = total volume
r = 1.5/16 in = 0.0942 in
h = 21 ft = 252 in

So:
V = π · (0.0942 in)² · 252 in ≈ 6.95814 in³

And since 1 in³ = 0.554 floz, then 6.95814 in³ = 3.8556 floz.


That's less than 4oz, so less than 1/4 of a pint. While it may lower the apparent carbonation level of the pint, I wouldn't expect it to seem completely flat. Perhaps just less carbed than expected, but still carbed nonetheless.

In the case of my hefeweizen taster, he did pour just a couple of ounces... As did I when I checked it out myself. My own second pour was then good. So, I think the math works out. Thanks for crunching the numbers!

Horseflesh said:

The hef keg is kept at higher pressure for more carbonation. The long line length provides drag on the moving beer, so it comes out of the faucet at the proper rate. I've been using this calculator:

http://www.mikesoltys.com/2012/09/17/determining-proper-hose-length-for-your-kegerator/

My high-carb hef keg has ~21 ft, my "normal" ale kegs have ~8 ft and are kept at ~10 PSI.

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If you pour quite a few tasters you may want to look into flow control Perlicks. I just recently got mine and you don't have to worry about adjusting beer line lengths for different carbonation levels you simply adjust the lever. I have 5' lines but I could easily minimize to less.

Also good for growlers

View attachment 1476826385048.jpg

I wish I knew about those before I got Perlick 630s. I don't do a lot of small pours but I sure like flexibility.

Horseflesh said:

I wish I knew about those before I got Perlick 630s. I don't do a lot of small pours but I sure like flexibility.

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Yeah and the cheapest place to get them is from More Beer! Insanely discounted. I don't do a lot of tasters either but it's nice to know I can adjust the flow down and keep carb levels high

RevKev said:

Yeah and the cheapest place to get them is from More Beer!

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False, RiteBrew has them beat by a few bucks. Ritebrew is generally about 10% cheaper on all items I've bought than anyone else on the internet. Neil Sprangers is the owner, and he now has my full business for all online brewing needs. There's only been a handful of items over the past 2 years that I need and he doesn't carry. Shipping time is consistently the fastest I've ever encountered too, as it's to my door in LA (from the midwest) within 2-3 days every single time

MagicMatt said:

False, RiteBrew has them beat by a few bucks. Ritebrew is generally about 10% cheaper on all items I've bought than anyone else on the internet. Neil Sprangers is the owner, and he now has my full business for all online brewing needs. There's only been a handful of items over the past 2 years that I need and he doesn't carry. Shipping time is consistently the fastest I've ever encountered too, as it's to my door in LA (from the midwest) within 2-3 days every single time

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+1 to this. I have had nothing but good experiences with Ritebrew. I am just across Lake Michigan from them so I get usually get my order the day after it ships.

MagicMatt said:

False, RiteBrew has them beat by a few bucks. Ritebrew is generally about 10% cheaper on all items I've bought than anyone else on the internet. Neil Sprangers is the owner, and he now has my full business for all online brewing needs. There's only been a handful of items over the past 2 years that I need and he doesn't carry. Shipping time is consistently the fastest I've ever encountered too, as it's to my door in LA (from the midwest) within 2-3 days every single time

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Hm yeah 2$ you're right but then again MoreBeer has the same shipping times yet its free over 59$, whilst it's 1.99$ after you meet the 75$ threshold and get the 5$ off. So if you order there you only save 1¢.

Prices do look reasonable decent selection.

RevKev said:

If you pour quite a few tasters you may want to look into flow control Perlicks. I just recently got mine and you don't have to worry about adjusting beer line lengths for different carbonation levels you simply adjust the lever. I have 5' lines but I could easily minimize to less.

Also good for growlers

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damng...look at the head on that.

Not to rain on the parade or anything, but I've heard that the flow control Perlicks have questions about the quality of the stainless used. A lot of people are complaining of sulfur smells coming from the steel. There's a few threads about it on here somewhere. I don't own any though but those complaints have kept me from purchasing any. Perhaps it's unfounded but I didn't want to take a chance.

normonster said:

damng...look at the head on that.

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Poured with the faucet restricted, hence the lack of head. Beer is still carbed.

MagicMatt said:

Not to rain on the parade or anything, but I've heard that the flow control Perlicks have questions about the quality of the stainless used. A lot of people are complaining of sulfur smells coming from the steel. There's a few threads about it on here somewhere. I don't own any though but those complaints have kept me from purchasing any. Perhaps it's unfounded but I didn't want to take a chance.

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No it's true I believe they use 303 for the flow control manifold as it's easier to machine, 304 everywhere else, yet unless you push extremely acidic ciders or sours you'll never experience this with HB. There are ways to solve the issue by acid-base cleansing, but it seems as if the different factories have had QC issues with passivation.

This is a bit off topic but oh well lol

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?p=7661408#post7661408

A problem for which I never found a solution either.

As for the talk about the perlick flow control issues, I wouldn't really call it off topic as it relates to one way to solve the issue. It seems to be the only real solution and I intend to get some eventually so I'd love to hear more talk on these stainless issues. Pretty expensive to be cheaping out on us like that.

Thorsbrew said:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?p=7661408#post7661408

A problem for which I never found a solution either.

As for the talk about the perlick flow control issues, I wouldn't really call it off topic as it relates to one way to solve the issue. It seems to be the only real solution and I intend to get some eventually so I'd love to hear more talk on these stainless issues. Pretty expensive to be cheaping out on us like that.

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I will read through that thread after work.. and give my thoughts.

To my understanding they did not 'cheap out' they use machinable 303 that has a higher sulfur content so the CNC or other machine they use is less taxed during operation. It's a complex part really... where the issues spawned from its maybe the machinists and Perlicks improper passivating the stainless leaving lots of sulfur near the surface of the metal. When soaked in highly acidic solution and then neutralized people in other forums have noted that the sulfuric smell never returns. I have a screenshot of the directions if anyone would need them as I haven't had issues but a lot of earlier batches of these did.

They have a dated serial number and lots of the newer ones haven't reapportioned the issue but it is a problem that can be solved