briefly opening a half full keg

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The only time you can have a CO2 blanket is when you are generating CO2 faster than diffusion and/or convection dissipates the blanket.


Brew on :mug:

Which is why the simple answer to this question is to generate a bunch of CO2 :fro: Stream a bunch through the gas inlet while adding the addition with the minimum opening for diffusion possible. Then purge a good amount for good measure. CO2 is pretty damn cheap.
 
You are generating CO2 its coming out of solution because there is on head pressure.

It's unlikely that CO2 is coming out of solution fast enough to overcome the convection and diffusion causing mixing at the lid opening.

Brew on :mug:
 
No one is forgetting that CO2 has a higher molecular weight than "air"; however gasses mix by diffusion and do not stratify. There is no "blanket" and the CO2 IS actually going to "just fly out of there and be replaced with oxygen".

so do you purge your fermenter every time you open it to check gravity? Because you are basically saying that if you dont, all your beer is now oxidized. Every time you open your fermenter.

It takes time for diffusion to happen, the OP says that he opened it briefly. As in seconds. Not for a day
 
Sorry, but you are just plain wrong. As @jddevinn noted, gases homogenize spontaneously, rather than stratifying. This is well known physics. The video below demonstrates how homogenization via diffusion works. Note that Br2 (used in the first demo) is 3.63 times heavier than CO2, and it homogenizes with air in about 30 minutes, when no convection is present. A later demo uses NO2, which is similar in weight to CO2 (46 vs 44). As shown the NO2 homogenizes much faster than the Br2. The presence of any convection will speed up the homogenization by orders of magnitude. The only time you can have a CO2 blanket is when you are generating CO2 faster than diffusion and/or convection dissipates the blanket.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_oLPBnhOCjM

Brew on :mug:

i will say the same as i did to the other guy.


so do you purge your fermenter every time you open it to check gravity? Because you are basically saying that if you dont, all your beer is now oxidized. Every time you open your fermenter.

It takes time for diffusion to happen, the OP says that he opened it briefly. As in seconds. Not for a day
 
so do you purge your fermenter every time you open it to check gravity? Because you are basically saying that if you dont, all your beer is now oxidized. Every time you open your fermenter.

I can't speak for these guys, but yes I absolutely do purge the fermenter with CO2 if I need to open it. However, for the past year or so I've just been waiting until I keg it to take the sample. I leave the beer in the carboy for several weeks and am in no rush to keg usually, so checking gravity isn't important. In the off chance that the beer isn't finished (which has never happened), it would finish in the keg, no big deal.

P.S. even if you don't purge the fermenter, "all [of] your beer" is not oxidized. The risk of oxidation is definitely increased, but only a very small portion is surface area and will allow for diffusion, which limits the rate of which that can happen. Personally I want to eliminate all oxygen at every step possible, but the threshold for oxidation is generally higher than what you describe. Opening the fermnter just once and only for a minute, especially if it's a carboy (i.e. narrow opening), will likely not have a noticeable impact. It really depends on your methodology, but personally if I'm taking a reading from the carboy and it's done, I'm transferring to a keg which will then purge any exposed O2. If the beer isn't done when checked, then there should be enough off-gassing to eventually push most of the exposed oxygen out via the airlock (natural purging).
 
so do you purge your fermenter every time you open it to check gravity? Because you are basically saying that if you dont, all your beer is now oxidized. Every time you open your fermenter.

It takes time for diffusion to happen, the OP says that he opened it briefly. As in seconds. Not for a day

I ferment in conicals and use a sampling valve while the conical is under positive CO2 pressure. From the time I pitch and oxidize I do not see the beer again (and it does not see air) until it is in my cup to drink.

Diffusion is slowed through the narrow opening of the carboy, bucket will have no transfer. If you check the gravity and it is done you are transferring anyway, if not it is actively releasing CO2. When I did use carboys I used a syringe with a ss tube that I put through the airlock bung to minimize air ingress.

How many times are you taking gravity?? For established recipes I'm normally "one and done" on measurements.
 
i will say the same as i did to the other guy.


so do you purge your fermenter every time you open it to check gravity? Because you are basically saying that if you dont, all your beer is now oxidized. Every time you open your fermenter.

It takes time for diffusion to happen, the OP says that he opened it briefly. As in seconds. Not for a day

I don't open fermenters to take gravity readings. I used to remove the air-lock from the bucket lid and pull a sample using a straight piece of rigid tube. I used a refractometer to check for fermentation endpoint, so only needed a few drops for a sample. Currently I use a Tilt wireless hydrometer to monitor fermentation, so there is no need to even remove the airlock to sample. I have also switched from bucket fermenters to PET wide-mouth jar fermenters to reduce air ingress (primarily due to the iffy seal around bucket lids.) With the new fermenters, I can do a pressurized transfer from the fermenter to a pre-purged keg (liquid method) to avoid air exposure during the transfer. The weak point I still have is air suck-back thru the airlock during cold crashing. I plan to eliminate this exposure by getting a 6.5 gal corny keg, and transferring to it prior to completion of fermentation, and then finishing with a pressurized (via spunding valve) fermentation and cold crash in the keg. At this point, my wort will never be exposed to the atmosphere after initial oxygenation in the fermenter.

As the video demonstrates, the time frame for complete interdiffusion is minutes, not days, and you don't need complete interdiffusion to have too much O2 in the headspace. As @jddevinn pointed out, the amount of air that enters a vessel when opened is dependent on the area of the opening. A carboy is much better than a bucket, and a keg is somewhere in between those two. OP asked about opening up a keg, and the removal and replacement of a keg lid adds a significant amount of convection to the equation. Convection mixes gases orders of magnitude faster than diffusion alone. Thus a keg will definitely contain enough O2 after opening to adversely affect the beer over time. Exactly how much O2 is impossible to determine a priori. If you don't have the ability to measure ppb levels of O2 in the keg, then the only safe option is to purge for the estimated worst case, and that is the analysis I presented in a previous post.

The fact that you seem to not like the science does not invalidate the science. If you expose your beer to O2 post fermentation, you will get some amount of oxidation. The more O2, the more oxidation. Temperature plays a big role in the rate of oxidation, so colder beer takes longer to reach the same level of oxidation as warmer beer.

If you are happy with how your beer tastes over its entire lifetime, then you don't need to make any changes to your procedures. Different people have different taste thresholds for oxidation effects. If yours is high, then you don't need to be as careful.

When people ask about best practices, or underlying science, I will attempt to provide the best information available (as I understand it), assuming I have some expertise in the area of interest. What anyone does with the information is up to them. I only try to educate, not proscribe behavior.

Brew on :mug:
 
Doug, to solve the cold crash issue I initially used solid bungs, which would allow negative pressure to build in the carboy, but opening them when it came time to transfer let in a whoosh of air. I wasn't too concerned as I still did open air transfers at the time (auto-siphon into the keg with lid off) and would be purging the keg just a few minutes later.

Now, I use a gas ball lock post attached to a short length of tubing inserted into a bung. This bung goes on the carboy prior to cold crashing and allows the negative pressure to build (no air entering), and when it's time to transfer I hook up my CO2 to the post and apply 1-2psi until the pressure stabilizes.
 
Doug, to solve the cold crash issue I initially used solid bungs, which would allow negative pressure to build in the carboy, but opening them when it came time to transfer let in a whoosh of air. I wasn't too concerned as I still did open air transfers at the time (auto-siphon into the keg with lid off) and would be purging the keg just a few minutes later.

Now, I use a gas ball lock post attached to a short length of tubing inserted into a bung. This bung goes on the carboy prior to cold crashing and allows the negative pressure to build (no air entering), and when it's time to transfer I hook up my CO2 to the post and apply 1-2psi until the pressure stabilizes.

Dude, you and @doug293cz just changed my life.

Straight brilliant!! Makes me wonder what type of oxidation threshold I have though, because I have essentially let a **** ton of air into my fermenters and kegs but I have never had a beer come out that I thought matched up with an oxidation flaw. Maybe it's all that Copenhagen!!!!!
 
Ok so I keg and do the best I can to do oxygen free transfers from my conical into the kegs, under Co2 pressure. I also purge the sealed keg 10 or 12 times at 25-30 psi when I am done transferring just to make sure. But what about all those who transfer into a bottling bucket to prime with corn sugar, and then bottle. Doesn't this oxidize the beer as it sits in the open bottling bucket. Even if you covered it, it wasn't purged first. So is everyone then that bottles and uses a bottling bucket essentially oxidizing their beer? Your thoughts....

John
 
Sans purging the bucket there's substantial surface area exposed to oxygen for the duration of the bottling phase, so certainly there's some degree of take-up. Plus some degree of agitation while mixing in the primer will add to that by exposing a greater volume of beer to the surface.

Perhaps the saving factor is the yeast may consume some of that O2 during the carbonation process...

Cheers!
 
Doug, to solve the cold crash issue I initially used solid bungs, which would allow negative pressure to build in the carboy, but opening them when it came time to transfer let in a whoosh of air. I wasn't too concerned as I still did open air transfers at the time (auto-siphon into the keg with lid off) and would be purging the keg just a few minutes later.

Now, I use a gas ball lock post attached to a short length of tubing inserted into a bung. This bung goes on the carboy prior to cold crashing and allows the negative pressure to build (no air entering), and when it's time to transfer I hook up my CO2 to the post and apply 1-2psi until the pressure stabilizes.

I don't think the solid bung/stopper would work well on a bucket just because the lid seals are so bad. It could work on the PET vessels I have now, but I don't know how much negative pressure they can take before collapsing. I don't think I'm curious enough to test one to failure, cause they're not cheap.

Brew on :mug:
 
I don't think the solid bung/stopper would work well on a bucket just because the lid seals are so bad. It could work on the PET vessels I have now, but I don't know how much negative pressure they can take before collapsing. I don't think I'm curious enough to test one to failure, cause they're not cheap.

Brew on :mug:

Not sure which brand of PET carboy you're using, but those things can handle a great deal of negative pressure from what I've seen:
attachment.php


I use glass and haven't had any issues (yet, though it did concern me for a while), and I would think glass would break before a PET vessel would. Soda bottles are PET and can withstand >60-70 psi. Not sure how negative pressure correlates though.

I wonder if there's essentially a backwards spunding valve, that would only draw gas from the CO2 tank when pressure drops below a certain threshold.
 
Not sure which brand of PET carboy you're using, but those things can handle a great deal of negative pressure from what I've seen:
attachment.php


I use glass and haven't had any issues (yet, though it did concern me for a while), and I would think glass would break before a PET vessel would. Soda bottles are PET and can withstand >60-70 psi. Not sure how negative pressure correlates though.

I wonder if there's essentially a backwards spunding valve, that would only draw gas from the CO2 tank when pressure drops below a certain threshold.

I'm not worried about a catastrophic implosion, but rather partial collapse inwards with creasing of the vessel walls. Soda bottles crease pretty readily (I know 'cause I use them instead of growlers.) Repeated creasing could weaken the walls, and the creases are not pleasing aesthetically.

I really like the reverse spunding valve idea. Such a device is definitely feasible. Now, can we figure out how to implement one in a cost effective way?

Brew on :mug:
 
I have a small keg of cider that's cold and carbed where I want it. I want to add some malic acid to improve the taste. Turn off the gas, bleed pressure, pop the lid, add the acid (dissolved in cider), close the lid...

How thorough do I need to be in purging the keg afterward? Will one or two purges at serving pressure be enough, or do I need to do the whole 8 purges at 25 psi thing again?

Ive got to know after 6 pages of debate what you ended up going with and if your cider is fine?
 
Ive got to know after 6 pages of debate what you ended up going with and if your cider is fine?

Heh - Haven't done it yet. I'm stuck on a different aspect of this problem, which is figuring out exactly how to make the acid adjustment that I want first.

What I've decided to do is to push a couple psi of CO2 through the liquid post for the few seconds it'll take me to pour a 1/4 cup into the keg. I figure that'll hold back any O2 trying to sneak its way in. Probably purge a couple times anyway just because.

I'll report back when it's a done deal.
 
Digging through that thread now, but what's the purpose of the balloons?

I've seen people use balloons to keep the pressure up when cold crashing, but not like this.
 
Heh - Haven't done it yet. I'm stuck on a different aspect of this problem, which is figuring out exactly how to make the acid adjustment that I want first.
What I've decided to do is to push a couple psi of CO2 through the liquid post for the few seconds it'll take me to pour a 1/4 cup into the keg. I figure that'll hold back any O2 trying to sneak its way in. Probably purge a couple times anyway just because.
I'll report back when it's a done deal.
Just a thought, but if you aren't adding more than a few ml of acid to the keg, why not disconnect the CO2 line, fill it with the amount of acid needed, then hook it back to the gas and let the CO2 inject it straight into the keg? Ed
:mug:
 
Digging through that thread now, but what's the purpose of the balloons?

I've seen people use balloons to keep the pressure up when cold crashing, but not like this.

Think of the balloons as pneumatic fuses.
If something goes FUBAR at the regulator, I won't have 11 gallons of shattered glass and lost beer in my ferm fridge (and all over the floor)...

Cheers! :mug:
 
I don't think the solid bung/stopper would work well on a bucket just because the lid seals are so bad. It could work on the PET vessels I have now, but I don't know how much negative pressure they can take before collapsing. I don't think I'm curious enough to test one to failure, cause they're not cheap.

Brew on :mug:

I agree with Doug, Matt - you might as well keep your fermenter open and let air in as you are cold crashing - at least it prevents your fermenter from breaking (if glass) or collapsing (if PET) - once you open your solid bung, air gets in, if it didn't get in already (which I think is more likely - in my experience buckets are always leaking around the lid area, you can easily test for it).

Negative pressure should be substantial as you cool your beer from 70F to 32F or so.

I still think the best way to deal with cold crashing "suck" problem is to hook up the fermentor to a keg filled with CO2, perhaps at a bit (10% or so) higher pressure than atmospheric, and as the beer volume shrinks, the CO2 from the keg will fill the void. No oxygen exposure and no risk of breaking glass or collapsing your PET container. Just my 2 cents.
 
Think of the balloons as pneumatic fuses.
If something goes FUBAR at the regulator, I won't have 11 gallons of shattered glass and lost beer in my ferm fridge (and all over the floor)...

Cheers! :mug:

I agree with day_trippr, and I would never, ever use positive pressure on glass carboy unless I had some fail safe (fuse) mechanism if the pressure gets too high - like the balloon, which is awesome and very cheap way to prevent broken glass, injury and loss of delicious beer.
 
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