why ferment on the must

I"m thinking about some raspberry and black berry wine from my bushes.
Most recepies call for ferementing on the must. Whats the reasoning for doing this. What would happen if I manage to juice a full gallon of berry juice and add sugar and ferment without the must?
Thanks,
Scott

If you want to juice the berries first, that would be fine. You get some tannin, and some "fullness" from fermenting with the berries, but not much so using just the juice would be fine I"m sure.

I don't have a juicer, and it's extraordinarily easy to just put the berries in a mesh bag, and then squeeze them out after about day 5 of fermentation, so that works for me.

I aggree with the ease of going on the must, but I wonder about adding water to wine. I'm wondering if you get better flavor with juice alone.

You need water to cut down on the acid of the berries.

novalou said:

You need water to cut down on the acid of the berries.

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Right! some berries are way more acidic than others (raspberries are very acidic) and the water cuts the acidity. This helps with the flavor, as well as for yeast health.

Picture your berries and how they would taste once the sugar is fermented out. That's what happens when you make wine- and sometimes it's great (apple juice) and sometimes not (raspberries). You could definitely try fermenting 100% juice, but it's most common to use 4-6 pounds of berries per gallon of wine, and use water and sugar to top up to get to an OG of 1.085-1.090 or so and get to one gallon.

Thanks Yooper and Novalou,
Thats not the question I asked but its the answer I wanted.
What about plums? I wanted to use strait juice for wine as well, but now get the feeling that water and must probably has a reason too.

First some terminology:

All the ingredients that go into wine making is "must". This includes juice, sugar, and fruit pulp.

The fruit mass that sometimes is used we'll call "pulp".

For non grape fruit wines, water is added to cut down on the acidicy of fruit.

The pulp is added to the must to give the wine flavor, color, tannins, and body.

So for your plums, experiment. Try one gallon with just juice from your juicer and another that is fermented with fruit pulp.

Whichever method you choose, you'll need some amount of water.

sashurlow said:

Thanks Yooper and Novalou,
Thats not the question I asked but its the answer I wanted.
What about plums? I wanted to use strait juice for wine as well, but now get the feeling that water and must probably has a reason too.

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Well, I don't have a lot of experience with plum wine. But the wild plums I used last time were very acidic- I don't recall the exact TA, but it was high. Diluting it with some water and adding sugar to get to an OG of 1.090 worked out great.

The weird thing is (and off topic here but I thought it was funny) was the flesh of these plums was brown. In the carboy, there were sometimes big chunks of brown floaters. Bob called it "poop wine" and I had low expectations. :cross:

But, once it finished and cleared it turned out a dark blush and was pretty good with about a year of aging. (It's long gone now).

Anyway, I'm sure the acidity varies wildly between varieties, and I would think that some plums may not be nearly as acidic as mine were. The sugar would vary wildly, also, especially in cases of drought or too much rain.

Yooper said:

it's extraordinarily easy to just put the berries in a mesh bag, and then squeeze them out after about day 5 of fermentation, so that works for me.

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Just wondering if you can go a little more into detail about that by any chance? Berries are starting to come up here in Boston and I'm still learning.


Thanks
Dan

Sure! Some of it (no pictures, though) is just explained right here in my blackberry wine recipe: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f79/blackberry-wine-31294/

What I found is easiest with fruits is to freeze them first. I like to wash them, and then weigh them, mark on the bag how much is in each bag, and then pop them in the freezer. That works well, because it helps break up the pulp from the freezing and thawing.

When I'm ready to mix up the must, I take the berries out of the freezer, and use a huge mesh bag that I got from the winemaking store. It actually lines my "ale pale" fermenter so I can put everything right in the pale that is lined with the mesh bag. I sanitize the bag, and the pail, and then pour the berries (usually still pretty frozen, so they are less messy) right in the lined pail. I mix up the rest of the ingredients (dissolving the sugar in boiling water and pouring over, adding the campden tablet, etc) right in there. Then, I take the bag at the top and simply tie it up. I try to leave the fruit "loose" in there and not tie the back tightly in the middle, but at the top so I can still stir it daily.

Pectic enzyme helps alot to extract juice from the fruit as well, and I'd recommend using it for fruit wines. It also helps prevent a pectin haze in the finished wine.

sashurlow said:

I aggree with the ease of going on the must, but I wonder about adding water to wine. I'm wondering if you get better flavor with juice alone.

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Many people do not add water to their fermentation, even raspberries, and will argue that all fruit is much preferred. You can learn to use additives instead of water to balance the acids and end up with a well-balanced, fabulous full-bodied fruit wine.