Does this BIAB technique make sense?

I've been doing partial mashes using BIAB for a while and I'm wondering if there is anything I can do to improve it. I seem to get about 70% efficiency and I'm happy with that but I want to make sure I'm mashing correctly and getting the best flavor out of my beers that I can.

For example, I'm planning on brewing an IPA this weekend. It has a OG of 1.089 and uses 9.75lbs of grain and 5lbs DME. Recipe calls for a step mash, rest at 122 and then at 149.

I'm planning on adding 10qts 133 degree strike water to hit 122 (1:1 ratio), and then an additional 5.1qts boiling water to hit 149 (about a 1.5qt/lb final ratio). Assuming I lose about 5qts absorbed by the grain, that will leave me with ~10qts.

I plan on then dipping my grain bag in 8qts sparge water (in a 4 gallon pot) at 170 and letting it sit for 10 min. I'll then remove the grains, and pour the sparge water into the brew pot, along with probably another 2-4qts sparge water at 170 poured over the grains in a colander to hit 20qts for my boil (I have a 24qt brew pot). That means I'll only be sparging with 10-12qts. Sparging by steeping still bothers me. And I worry that I'm extracting too many tannins by squeezing the grain bag afterwards because sometimes I think my beers are a little bit astringent.

The amounts of water I use are pretty much just guesses. I try to aim for 1.25 qt/lb for mash water, but there is usually no way I can sparge with 2 qt/lb and fit it all in my 24 qt pot. And for step mashes like this, I'm not sure if I want the 1.25 ratio at the initial strike or at the end so I usually split the difference. Does my technique sound good, or should I be using different ratios of water for mashing and sparging?

Only thing that jumps to mind is that you will get a bit more efficiency if your sparge water to a bit hotter. You don't want to get above 170F, but if you're dipping 149F grain into 170F water, you're going to drop below that significantly.

You could also stand to use some more sparge water. Again, this would only be to help efficiency, which may or may not be a priority for you.

subscribing - post your results from this weekends brew!

I had an idea to pour sparge water over my grains in a colander. I had 9lbs of grain, when they're dry it seemed like a great idea. Once they've been mashed they have so much volume it would be pretty damn hard to poor water over them without getting it everywhere. I have a 5qt colander and the grains were twice as tall as the colander.

I did get my BIAB PM up from 68% to 76% this last brew, huge pain in the butt. Will not do again. I had this brilliant idea that I could mash without the bag allowing me to really stir the hell out of it. I thought I could drain my wort into a bucket catching the grains in the colander.

So now I've got 2.8 gallons and 9lbs in a 4 gallon pot, ended up with 1/2" of headspace. That's when it hit me, how am I going to pour this without spilling it everywhere? So I siphoned some, then started with this colander idea. The colander was filling up so fast it took 3 pourings, I was putting the grains in other pots making a huge mess of my kitchen and eventually got them all in the bag for the sparge. At this point the bag is a heaping mound outside of the colander, water would have splashed everywhere if I tried to pour any on. Using the metal colander I did squeeze every drop out that I could.

I set beersmith at 70% since I've been getting 68 and was being optimistic. My 1.060 beer ended up a 1.077. I have since decided I'll just convert a cooler I already own to mash in.

I did a PM BIAB batch and hit ~73% efficiency (was my first BIAB brew)... I used two 5 gallon pots, which was the main thing holding me back.

My latest all grain BIAB batch, using a 32 quart mash pot, with one of the 20 quart pots for the sparge stage, hit just over 81% efficiency. I heated 22 quarts of water (grain bill was 11 pounds, 5 pounds UK 2-Row, 5 pounds MO, and 12 ounces British Crystal Malt II, and 4 ounces dark BCM I). Sparge volume was 2 gallons, which was a little less than I would have liked, but got great results. I did make sure to break up ALL the dough balls in the grain bag once I added it to the mash water (target was 154F, didn't step it up, just added the grain to the warmer water and controlled the temp to keep it at the same range). I mashed for 90 minutes, then did a 20-30 minute sparge (forget which exactly, didn't write it down). Boil time was also 90 minutes. Ended up with just a hair over 5 gallons of wort.

What size is your grain crush? That's one of the factors that can limit your efficiency level. If you don't break up the dough balls soon enough, that could also limit you. I make sure to have them fully broken up as fast as possible, stirring as much as needed to be sure they are all broken up. If you're not mashing long enough, that will also limit your efficiency.

I'm brewing again this Saturday, with 10 pounds of grain. I'll work to post up how it comes out, and how long I sparge for. I'm thinking about trying the single infusion mash, no mash out method with this one. My pot is large enough to handle it all (all the water needed, plus the grain) at one time.

I would say that instead of assuming how much water you'll lose to grain absorption, use the available calculation tools to give you a solid answer. I would also make sure the pots you have are actually large enough to do the job properly.

What kind of bag are you using for the BIAB? Is it a fine mesh nylon bag, or something else? I've been using the fine mesh grain bag from the LHBS (same mesh size as the hop bags I believe) for my batches, with solid results.

I do believe that if you don't mash at a high enough temperature, for long enough, you won't get enough extraction from the grains. Same thing for the sparge time. I would go for at least 15-20 minutes in the sparge, 30 if you can.

One of the things I'm planning on trying out this coming brew day is wrapping my pot(s) in reflective insulation (from Lowe's)... I'm hoping that will help the pots to maintain the water temperature for longer, before needing to apply heat to them.

evilhomer said:

I had an idea to pour sparge water over my grains in a colander. I had 9lbs of grain, when they're dry it seemed like a great idea. Once they've been mashed they have so much volume it would be pretty damn hard to poor water over them without getting it everywhere. I have a 5qt colander and the grains were twice as tall as the colander.

I did get my BIAB PM up from 68% to 76% this last brew, huge pain in the butt. Will not do again. I had this brilliant idea that I could mash without the bag allowing me to really stir the hell out of it. I thought I could drain my wort into a bucket catching the grains in the colander.

So now I've got 2.8 gallons and 9lbs in a 4 gallon pot, ended up with 1/2" of headspace. That's when it hit me, how am I going to pour this without spilling it everywhere? So I siphoned some, then started with this colander idea. The colander was filling up so fast it took 3 pourings, I was putting the grains in other pots making a huge mess of my kitchen and eventually got them all in the bag for the sparge. At this point the bag is a heaping mound outside of the colander, water would have splashed everywhere if I tried to pour any on. Using the metal colander I did squeeze every drop out that I could.

I set beersmith at 70% since I've been getting 68 and was being optimistic. My 1.060 beer ended up a 1.077. I have since decided I'll just convert a cooler I already own to mash in.

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I could see this exact situation happening to me. Thanks for the info, I'll try to learn from your experience. My bag is huge, and I keep it open so I can stir the grains, but I will probably have a similar problem when I try to pour sparge water over the grains in the bag sitting in a colander. I have 3 pots, 2, 4, and 6 gallons, and I don't think I'll have a problem mashing in the 6, but I'm worried about having enough room to sparge in the 4 which is why I'm heating extra water in the 2 to sparge by pouring over with. If that doesn't work, oh well, I added extra grain in the recipe to deal with lower efficiency.

BIAB, sparge water
IPA, step mashing

none of this makes much sense. BIAB does not need sparge, I'd just mash out @ 170 before pulling bag and letting it drain.

What kind of grains are requiring a step mash?

Golddiggie said:

I did a PM BIAB batch and hit ~73% efficiency (was my first BIAB brew)... I used two 5 gallon pots, which was the main thing holding me back.

My latest all grain BIAB batch, using a 32 quart mash pot, with one of the 20 quart pots for the sparge stage, hit just over 81% efficiency. I heated 22 quarts of water (grain bill was 11 pounds, 5 pounds UK 2-Row, 5 pounds MO, and 12 ounces British Crystal Malt II, and 4 ounces dark BCM I). Sparge volume was 2 gallons, which was a little less than I would have liked, but got great results. I did make sure to break up ALL the dough balls in the grain bag once I added it to the mash water (target was 154F, didn't step it up, just added the grain to the warmer water and controlled the temp to keep it at the same range). I mashed for 90 minutes, then did a 20-30 minute sparge (forget which exactly, didn't write it down). Boil time was also 90 minutes. Ended up with just a hair over 5 gallons of wort.

What size is your grain crush? That's one of the factors that can limit your efficiency level. If you don't break up the dough balls soon enough, that could also limit you. I make sure to have them fully broken up as fast as possible, stirring as much as needed to be sure they are all broken up. If you're not mashing long enough, that will also limit your efficiency.

I'm brewing again this Saturday, with 10 pounds of grain. I'll work to post up how it comes out, and how long I sparge for. I'm thinking about trying the single infusion mash, no mash out method with this one. My pot is large enough to handle it all (all the water needed, plus the grain) at one time.

I would say that instead of assuming how much water you'll lose to grain absorption, use the available calculation tools to give you a solid answer. I would also make sure the pots you have are actually large enough to do the job properly.

What kind of bag are you using for the BIAB? Is it a fine mesh nylon bag, or something else? I've been using the fine mesh grain bag from the LHBS (same mesh size as the hop bags I believe) for my batches, with solid results.

I do believe that if you don't mash at a high enough temperature, for long enough, you won't get enough extraction from the grains. Same thing for the sparge time. I would go for at least 15-20 minutes in the sparge, 30 if you can.

One of the things I'm planning on trying out this coming brew day is wrapping my pot(s) in reflective insulation (from Lowe's)... I'm hoping that will help the pots to maintain the water temperature for longer, before needing to apply heat to them.

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I use the grain mill at my LHBS. I really don't know how good it is, but I've heard that LHBS's machines tend to grind grain a little too finely. In the past, I used to stir continuously while mashing and adding a very small amount of heat to keep the temperature constant. I found that the variations between the bottom of the pot and the top are too great though, so next time I'm going to heat the water, add the grain, cover the mash pot and place it inside my pre-heated oven to insulate it and touch it as little as possible.

I haven't come across a calculator that tells you how much water grain will absorb but I've read that it roughly 0.125 gallons per pound. The exact amount doesn't really matter. I'll just compensate with more sparge water to hit 5 gallons for the boil. The 6 gallon pot should be fine with 15 qt and 10lbs grain in it for mashing, losing about 5 from the grain, and then adding back 10qt to hit 20qt for the boil. The 4 gallon pot with ~10lb grain plus 2 gallons sparge water might be a little tight. I don't know a good way to calculate volume of grain though to know for sure.

I use a fine mesh nylon bag. It's huge. It easily fits in my 6.5 plastic bucket fermenter with more material at the top to spare so I assume it probably would hold about 7.5 gallons in volume. It should be able to hold 10lb grain no problem.

In the past I have tested the mash with iodine and stopped mashing when there were no more starches left. My last mash was a single infusion mash at 152 for 90 minutes for a hefeweizen. I think my efficiency was around 70-75% but I'm not totally sure because I broke my hydrometer before I topped it off with the correct amount of water.

If I ever go to AG brewing (right now I only do partial mashes), I'll get a second 6 gallon pot and split my wort between the two of them. I'll probably convert a 10 gallon cooler and use that as a mash and lauter tun. That's months in the future though, I'm still a beginner and have a lot to learn first.

samc said:

BIAB, sparge water
IPA, step mashing

none of this makes much sense. BIAB does not need sparge, I'd just mash out @ 170 before pulling bag and letting it drain.

What kind of grains are requiring a step mash?

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I use the BIAB technique from the BIAB sticky on the beginner's forum. I have a separate pot of sparge water I heat to 170 and then steep the grains in that pot for 10 minutes after mashing is complete. Then I pour the sparge water into the mash pot and proceed to boil. It seems to get better efficiency that just mashing and throwing the grains away.

The grains are 8lbs of pilsner malt and 1.75lbs of amber malt. The step mash is a simple two steps, first at 122 (I assume that's a protein rest?) and then mashing at 149. I'm just following what the recipe says. Honestly, I still don't really understand why some recipes have just a single infusion mash at 152 or so, and others have complicated rests at various steps. I don't know enough about the styles or the malts to know what is required when so for now I just follow what the recipes tell me.

Instead of getting another 6 gallon pot, get one that's 10 (40 quart) or a little larger... If you can swing it, get a 60 quart pot (15 gallons) so that you're ready for when you go to 10 gallon batches.

I'll be brewing a 10 gallon batch on 2/26 with a brew-bud at a sponsored event (at the LHBS I go to)... I'll have my 60-80 quart (aluminum) pot already (conditioned/cured too) as well as my propane burner (brew-bud is also bringing his)... We figured that it makes more sense to do a 10 gallon batch, than to try and split a 5 gallon batch. Especially since we're making a cream ale. Splitting the batch this way also lets us have our own to ferment (at our own places) so that will be easier too.

I wouldn't convert a cooler just yet. You'll spend more on the cooler conversion, and probably not get all that much different efficiency. You should figure out what's going on with the PM batches first. Of course, if could be the DME you're using that's giving you the lower efficiency. For giggles, try an all grain BIAB batch soon. Even if it's a fairly low OG brew, to see how it goes. Using the Green Bay Rackers site, you can figure out how much grain, and water to pound of grain, will fit in your 6 gallon pot...

gio said:

I use the BIAB technique from the BIAB sticky on the beginner's forum. I have a separate pot of sparge water I heat to 170 and then steep the grains in that pot for 10 minutes after mashing is complete. Then I pour the sparge water into the mash pot and proceed to boil. It seems to get better efficiency that just mashing and throwing the grains away.

The grains are 8lbs of pilsner malt and 1.75lbs of amber malt. The step mash is a simple two steps, first at 122 (I assume that's a protein rest?) and then mashing at 149. I'm just following what the recipe says. Honestly, I still don't really understand why some recipes have just a single infusion mash at 152 or so, and others have complicated rests at various steps. I don't know enough about the styles or the malts to know what is required when so for now I just follow what the recipes tell me.

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I've not used Pilsner malt yet, so that very well could be the part that's messing you up... I've been using just UK 2-Row and Maris Otter base malts so far, with rather nice results.

From the Brew Smith mash profile selection, the steps you've outlined has this in the notes: "Double step infusion - for light body beers requiring a protein rest. Used primarily in beers high in unmodified grains or adjuncts."

Not sure what IPA you're going after, but you might want to change over the base malt to a Pale Malt (2 Row) to see how things work out. If you're using a lot of other things in the recipe, try simplifying it. You could also see a boost in efficiency when going all grain (as I've already mentioned)...

How about posting the actual recipe, and what you're really looking to get?

Golddiggie said:

Instead of getting another 6 gallon pot, get one that's 10 (40 quart) or a little larger... If you can swing it, get a 60 quart pot (15 gallons) so that you're ready for when you go to 10 gallon batches.

I'll be brewing a 10 gallon batch on 2/26 with a brew-bud at a sponsored event (at the LHBS I go to)... I'll have my 60-80 quart (aluminum) pot already (conditioned/cured too) as well as my propane burner (brew-bud is also bringing his)... We figured that it makes more sense to do a 10 gallon batch, than to try and split a 5 gallon batch. Especially since we're making a cream ale. Splitting the batch this way also lets us have our own to ferment (at our own places) so that will be easier too.

I wouldn't convert a cooler just yet. You'll spend more on the cooler conversion, and probably not get all that much different efficiency. You should figure out what's going on with the PM batches first. Of course, if could be the DME you're using that's giving you the lower efficiency. For giggles, try an all grain BIAB batch soon. Even if it's a fairly low OG brew, to see how it goes. Using the Green Bay Rackers site, you can figure out how much grain, and water to pound of grain, will fit in your 6 gallon pot...

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I'd love to get a 10 gallon pot but I don't have a way to heat it. I have a gas stove but it doesn't have a high powered burner (my old apt had one). Also, since I live in an apt with limited room I couldn't use a propane burner. I figured with 2 6 gallon pots I could make use of two burners on my stove and boil twice as fast. As they boiled down, I'd combine them into one pot. I don't ever plan on doing more than 5 gallon batches.

I'm not going to do a cooler conversion at least until the summer and I have a dozen or so beers under my belt. I'm not too unhappy with my efficiency actually. 70% is fine with. I'd like just better accuracy with my procedure so I can hit all my mash temperatures and make the beers I want to make.

I'm going to try an AG mash soon when I next brew a beer that isn't as high gravity as the ones I've been making recently.

Thanks for pointing out the Green Bay Rackers calculator. I was just using it to calculate the strike water temps, I never noticed the "Can I Mash It?" calculator below it though, lol.

It's a dogfish head 90 clone. Here is the original recipe:

Dogfish Head 90

16.5# Pilsner malt
1.66# Amber malt
16 AAU Amarillo (continuous 90-0 Minutes)
8 AAU Simcoe (continuous 90-0 Minutes)
8 AAU Warrior (continuous 90-0 Minutes)
1 oz Amarillo (Dry Hop)
.5 oz Simcoe (Dry Hop)
.5 oz Warrior (Dry Hop
Wyeast 1099 (Whitbread)

OG 1.088
FG 1.021
IBU - 90
SRM-13

Step mash. Mash in at 122 then raise to 149. Mash out at 170. Boil 105 minutes, start adding hops at 90 minutes, about .25 oz every 7.5 minutes.

I've modified it to be a partial mash for 5.25 gallons:

8.0lb pilsner malt
1.75lb amber malt
5.0lb DME late addition

The hops are also a little different to take into account the DME late addition, but that's not important here.

OG (calculated): 1.0895

Actually, it is the pilsner malt. I just found a page that said that pilsner malt usually requires a protein rest. Thus the step mash. It's funny but all the recipes I've done seem to use pilsner malt as the base malt.

I really don't like the DFH IPA's... Way too bitter for my taste... Then again, I'm not an IPA fan at all (have yet to find any that I can drink)... Give me a solid pub pale ale though, and I'm happy.

If you can fit a 6 gallon pot, then you should be able to fit an 8 gallon (aluminum) pot like I have (from a restaurant supplier)... I can almost get it to span two burners, if I line it up right. But, it sits solidly on one.

I'm living in an one bedroom apartment (two family house, where I have pretty much zero yard access/space)... I'm planning on getting a propane burner and use it outside when needed. I am going to wrap the 32 quart pot in reflective insulation to see if that helps enough to let me get up to a boil easier. Last time I had to turn the burner I used all the way up to where it was almost lighting itself... The other burner I've used could be a high output/BTU burner, but I have no way to know (landlord is an a$$hole these days)...

If nothing else, the propane burner, and larger pot, will allow me to brew at other places without using up their gas, or having to suffer with an electric stove (like the crappy one my mother has in her apartment, thanks to my sister)...

gio said:

Actually, it is the pilsner malt. I just found a page that said that pilsner malt usually requires a protein rest. Thus the step mash. It's funny but all the recipes I've done seem to use pilsner malt as the base malt.

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I have yet to have any that use that malt... Now, I seriously doubt if I ever will brew with it... I'm really enjoying using MO...

I generally don't like IPA's either, but I like Dogfish Head 60 and love the 90 and 120. It's my goal to someday make the 120 (the recipe is crazy... someday).

I could fit an 8 gallon pot on my stove but not interested in waiting for it to boil, lol.

btw, golddiggie, I just noticed you are in Natick. There is a Boston homebrewers club I found on meetup.com that has brew days in Natick. I think there is one coming up this weekend actually. I have yet to attend any of their events, but it looks interesting, you might want to check it out.

gio said:

btw, golddiggie, I just noticed you are in Natick. There is a Boston homebrewers club I found on meetup.com that has brew days in Natick. I think there is one coming up this weekend actually. I have yet to attend any of their events, but it looks interesting, you might want to check it out.

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Ummmm... Yeah, I know about it since it's happening at my place... We're making a Boddington's Pub Ale clone, which I have all the grain for. I've brewed with the person coming over a few times now, so it's good... As noted on the meetup site, we will be using the BIAB method (will be the first time the brew-bud is involved with that method)... This will be my third BIAB all grain brewing.

This is going to be the third brew day I've hosted actually... Was hoping that one, or two, more people would show up for the event...

Golddiggie said:

Ummmm... Yeah, I know about it since it's happening at my place... We're making a Boddington's Pub Ale clone, which I have all the grain for. I've brewed with the person coming over a few times now, so it's good... As noted on the meetup site, we will be using the BIAB method (will be the first time the brew-bud is involved with that method)... This will be my third BIAB all grain brewing.

This is going to be the third brew day I've hosted actually... Was hoping that one, or two, more people would show up for the event...

Click to expand...

haha, that's pretty funny. I guess I should have realized that you could be the same person. I was actually thinking of attending but I was planning on making this IPA on Saturday. Maybe I could brew it on Sunday instead and stop by.

gio said:

haha, that's pretty funny. I guess I should have realized that you could be the same person. I was actually thinking of attending but I was planning on making this IPA on Saturday. Maybe I could brew it on Sunday instead and stop by.

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You could... Just decide and RSVP if you're going to attend...

So I brewed this beer this past weekend. It was a Dogfish Head 90 minute IPA clone. The (modified for partial mash) recipe I used was:

8.0lb pilsner malt
1.75lb amber malt
5.0lb pilsen light DME (late addition at 0min)

14 AAU amarillo (90min continuous)
7 AAU warrior (90min continuous)
7 AAU simcoe (90min continuous)

1oz amarillo (dry hop)
0.5oz warrior (dry hop)
0.5oz simcoe (dry hop)

Wyeast 1099, 2 packs in a 2 liter starter

2 teaspoons gypsum, 1/2 teaspoon epsom salts (for my soft water)

OG: 1.088 (5.25 gallons in primary, 70% efficiency)

BIAB instructions:
Heat 10qts water to 133, add in grains to hit 122 for protein rest. Rest 15min. Add 5.1qts boiling water to hit 149 mash temp. Rest 60min, test for conversion with iodine. Dip grain bag in 4qt @ 176 to sparge @ 170. Let grain sit in sparge water for 10 min. Optionally pour 4 qts more sparge water over grains in a colander into brew pot. Add sparge water into brew pot. Add water to hit 5 gallons in brew pot, or boil away if over 5 gallons. Boil 15 mins. Then boil 90 minutes and follow hop schedule.

Everything went quite well despite some difficulties. At first, I accidentally followed an older version of the recipe I was experimenting with earlier and added in 12qts strike water instead of 10. I overshot the protein rest temperature by maybe 4 degrees so I quickly cooled it down with cold water. Unfortunately, this meant I was well over the anticipated 10qts strike water (more like 13 or 14qt at that point) and so I needed 6qts boiling water to hit the mash temp. I hit the mash temp spot on and kept the mash pot warm in my oven for an hour. It worked but was a difficult to get the oven to the temp I wanted so next time I will use a sleeping bag as an insulator.

Sparging with nearly 10lbs grain with 4qts water in a 4 gallon pot was very difficult. I made a huge mess. I should have used less sparge water or a larger pot. Sparging by pouring over an addition 4 qts of water was also impossible. The grain fit in the colander but was stacked so high over the top the water basically ran off the sides and ended up all over the stovetop. I already had too much water in my brewpot by that point anyways (probably 5.5 gallons) and measuring the SG at that point showed that my efficiency was better than expected even with minimal sparging (somewhere between 70-75%).

Because I had so much water, I had to boil the wort for an hour or so to get down to 5 gallons before I started the hop additions. For the hopping, I took 45 tiny bathroom dixie cups and divided the hops up as even as I could. I tossed in a cup every 2 minutes for 90 minutes.

Because my mash efficiency was so good, I only used about 4.75lb DME.
Adding the DME at 0 minutes was also difficult. I wisked it as best as I could but adding that much DME before the wort cooled down was difficult so I left the heat on a little bit longer to make sure it dissolved and was sanitized. I was left with something that looked like clam chowder or porridge because of all the hops. While the wort chilled I use a skimmer to remove as many of the hops from the surface as I could. The simcoe hops I used were whole leaf hops and I didn't want them to clog my strainer. I chilled the wort in about 15min with a wort chiller, poured it into the fermenter and added water till I hit my OG. I ended up with a little over 5 gallons (maybe 5.2) and an OG of about 1.086 which was very close to my target.

I pitched the slurry from a 2l starter plus an additional package of yeast (yes, a ton of yeast!). I noticed bubbling within 5 hours or so. By the next morning, there was so much activity that the flask looked like it was rapidly boiling (I used a blowoff tube in a flask). There was also a lot of crap coming through the blowoff tube which would clog it until the pressure built up and it would shoot it through with a burst of bubbles. The sanitizer in the flask turned a muddy brown. It is still just as active 2 days later. I've never seen such vigorous fermentation. I hope I did not pitch too much yeast.

I think this beer came out well so far. I absolutely love the aroma and flavor of amber malt and I'm going to try it in the next abbey ale I make.