In Contempt of Extract

cubbies said:

I dont disagree. I was not trying to imply that an extract brewer was to brewing what a microwaver is to being a chef...I was just saying that that is how I personally felt.

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That's OK. I was just trying to toss another view myself...

I think extract is great............................................................For Yeast Starters!

I'm mostly kidding. It's been proven that great beers can be made with both. I've never brewed an extract beer. Apart from a few small differences in controllability, labor intensity, etc., I really think it comes down to personal preference. Brewing with extract is taking advantage of our industrialized society and consequential ability to process foods for easier consumption (quicker preparation). It's like (oh no, another analogy) making pumpkin pie with canned pumpkin vs. whole pumpkin. One can make a great pie with either and not very many people will notice the difference. I've always been a "from scratch" kind of person. I appreciate things that are "authentic". That's why I went straight to all-grain. But that's just me. I don't look down upon extract or those who brew it. I've had some pretty tasty extract beers that I had no idea were extract until I asked. So, to each his own.

Seems like analogies are the statement du jour right now. I'll take a crack at it.

Think of AG and extract brewing as two different hiking trails to get to a lake. One path is shorter than the other, has fewer scenic overlooks and is generally smoother and easier to trudge along. However, you eventually get to the lake even though you never got to see much farther than the trees. On the other hand, the other trail you could take is more difficult because it's longer, has higher grades and maybe a little negotiation over some rocky areas. However, you get out of the forest quite often and get some breathtaking views. Eventually, you do get to the lake, but not as early as you did on the other trail. Two different ways to get to the same spot, but a different experience for each.

I'm sure I don't have to tell you guys which trail is which in that analogy. :cross:

Anyway, I recently posted a thread that was about a new aspect in homebrewing that I came to appreciate. When I first started homebrewing it was a means to an end. Quality beer for a cheaper price than store bought. Over the course of time that I've been brewing, I invariably moved on to AG and that's when I learned beer wasn't just about quality, cheapo beer. It was about the experience of brewing. All of the folks here who are putting hundreds of dollars into their AG systems aren't necessarily doing it for the sake of bragging rights or because they love to burn money. They do it because they see brewing as a living, breathing process, and so their equipment and methods are constantly evolving as well. Maybe it's because they want to squeeze more efficiency out of their system, maybe they just thought of a way to improve their setup.

I believe, though, that for these people, it's not about the money. You'll never be able to justify .25 beers when you're buying all sorts of new gadgets. It's because they love brewing as a holistic experience. This isn't to be mistaken for a statement that extract brewers love the craft of brewing any less. They're just comfortable with a less arduous, possibly less money intensive process that still gets them what they wanted anyway: quality beer they can call their own.

Let's just leave it at this. Some people like to take the shorter, less strenuous path because they love spending time at the lake. While other people, though they love the lake as well, have grown to appreciate the hike it takes to get their. Both are noble people who enjoy the same thing, but their priorities might not be quite the same.

FIN

I currently brew with extract, but as soon as I am able, I am going to make the switch to all grain. That being said, there is nothing intrinsically wrong with extract brewing. I did my first extract brew 3 months ago, and when I started, I knew virtually nothing about making beer, whereas today my knowledge has vastly increased. I have learned so much brewing with extract, and I can't imagine having started with all grain.

I want to switch to all grain because I love this hobby, and I want to be as involved in the process as possible, but not because I think that my beer is going to take some astronomical leap in quality because I am using the intrinsically better method of all grain. If my beer is better, it will be due to the fact that I sort of know what I'm doing now. Extract brewing is like anything else, and it has its advantages and disadvantages. But as Ray Daniels, author of "Designing Great Beers" said in an interview on the brewing network, "extract is not an evil ingredient."

Assuming that you are not dealing with extract quality issues, there are no barriers to the quality of beer you can make relative to all grain. Or at least that's what people like Jamil Zainasheff and Ray Daniels have led me to believe, since I cannot speak from experience. But what do they know.

Bottom line is, brewing all grain is cool and fun, and may even give you better quality beer, but to say things like you despise extract, and that extract just sucks, is stupid.

the_bird said:

The core issue that I suspect the OP is having with extract is those GD 3.3# cans, cans that have been sitting around for who knows long on the HBS's shelf. It's not fair to paint extract as being contemptible if you're not using fresh product. If the only tomatoes I ever ate were ones that I picked out of the supermarket's dumpster, well, I'd probably say that I didn't particularly care for tomatoes, you know?

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exactly what i was getting at, not to bash extract at all... thanks for the input

stevecaaster said:

exactly what i was getting at, not to bash extract at all... thanks for the input

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Oh really? Your first post would seem to say otherwise...

stevecaaster said:

Anyone else completely despise extract?

Basically what I am getting at is extract does suck really bad...

Anyone else completely despise extract or have a really bad experiance with it? Anyone really hate it for its demonic flavors?

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While I no longer brew with extract, except in some very high gravity cases, I have made some very good beers with the stuff and see no reason to bash the stuff that helped get me into this obsession

c.n.budz said:

Oh really? Your first post would seem to say otherwise...




While I no longer brew with extract, except in some very high gravity cases, I have made some very good beers with the stuff and see no reason to bash the stuff that helped get me into this obsession

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DAMN let me rephrase, i meant not to bash the extract "brewer" and their intentions, i do mean to bash extract, or my 3.3LB nasty cans in particular, they really were wack!

stevecaaster said:

DAMN let me rephrase, i meant not to bash the extract "brewer" and their intentions, i do mean to bash extract, or my 3.3LB nasty cans in particular, they really were wack!

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You could've tried DME...

I love extract. I use exclusively DME.

I have brewed AG quite successfully, but my best brews are PM's which I do exclusively now.

I have 3 kids, a full time job, a yard that is a handful, a home to maintain, hops and peppers to grow, etc.

If it wasn't for extract, I would get to brew twice a year.

I know AG people will argue that AG doesn't take much longer at all.

But when you factor in: I can monitor a kettle on the stove and entertain my five month old son at the same time.

Not so with a turkey fryer out in the weather. It takes some time just to get the huge kettle and burner and propane out and set up.

And furthermore...I made one AG beer that was the best beer anyone I know had ever tried. My next batch was a PM that was even better.

I did an imperial stout 12% abv that was strictly extract. It wasn't for everyone, but those who like a strong stout loved it.

And the one nearly NA brew I made was AG. That couldn't have happened with extract.

... or fresh LME, from a place with high turnover (like Northern Brewer or AHS). You've got to think of LME as being a perishable ingredient. Some brands are better than others, too. It's illogical to bash extract as a whole (which you really did) if the issue is specific to the old cans.

For the record, I love AG, I'll never go back to extract... but I was making some pretty good beers with extract. I'm AG because I love the control and the process, not because I find the beer to be inherently better.

It's all good....

So long as you only use a stainless steel boil pot...and never aluminum...

...and as long as you only use bleach to sanitize...

...and as long as you only use bottled water...

...and only use a glass carboy...

...and only pellet hops...

...and skip the secondary...

j/k

...sorry...couldn't resist...

I'm slowly working my way towards AG, but I'm still a bayou burner, immersion chiller, and mash tun away... I'm sure I'll get there gradually. I did start out with a 4 gallon boil on my last brew, so heading in the right direction.. But to be honest, I can have a hard time just trying to fit in an extract brew, time wise. I have a handful of kids at home, one a 6 month old. Between family and a full time job, there isn't a lot of brewery time left over.. The added cost of time associated with AG makes it much harder for me to schedule.

I did get a solid taste of Twang in my last batch though.. I'm looking forward to not getting that on a regular basis. I think I'm going to start using all DME.

BierMuncher said:

It's all good....

So long as you only use a stainless steel boil pot...and never aluminum...

...and as long as you only use bleach to sanitize...

...and as long as you only use bottled water...

...and only use a glass carboy...

...and only pellet hops...

...and skip the secondary...

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You forgot one

...and only use liquid yeast. (Or was it dry?!?)

BlindLemonLars said:

You forgot one

...and only use liquid yeast. (Or was it dry?!?)

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And the most important one of all...only do full boils INSIDE!

Seriously, though, I think it's a myth that you need to go AG to make really good beer. I do both AG and extract brewing, and I get very good results both ways. The keys to avoiding twang are to use fresh extract from a reputable source and follow good brewing practice (sanitation, temp control, etc.). If you can't make good beer with good extract then you are a bad brewer and going AG isn't going to do you any good in the long run.

Beerthoven said:

Seriously, though, I think it's a myth that you need to go AG to make really good beer. I do both AG and extract brewing, and I get very good results both ways. The keys to avoiding twang are to use fresh extract from a reputable source and follow good brewing practice (sanitation, temp control, etc.). If you can't make good beer with good extract, then you are a bad brewer and going AG isn't going to do you any good in the long run.

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Amen brother

BlindLemonLars said:

You forgot one

...and only use liquid yeast. (Or was it dry?!?)

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Dry FTW

I don't understand the question

I challenge all of you across the country to do blind taste tests and report the findings.

All the samples must be bottled and coded so the scorekeeper is the only one who knows if the beers are AG or Extract.

There are only two scoring criteria: Pass/Fail AG/Extract

P=Pass=would drink again
F=Fail= would not drink again
AG= All Grain
E=Extract

The only scores possible are PAG,PE,FAG,FE

Each taster gets to vote on each beer.

Betcha the results will show little difference between the actual AG and E with passing grades and a huge bias towards attributing passing grades to an AG when it is actually an Extract.

This is very different from a contest environment where the winning beers have some very extraordinary aromas, flavors, textures etc. which can only be obtained by the alchemy of AG.

Overall however and based solely on the PFAGE ratings, there will be as many FAGs as FEs.

I went all grain for one reason, to make the best beer possible. To me you just can't do that with extract. While my two extract batch's were drinkable and good, I would not call them great. Most of my All grains I can call great, and would rather drink them than a commercial beer of the same style. I don't even use DME for starters anymore, I always save some left over wort and freeze it.

I'm glad extract got me into brewing, but now that I'm "evolved" (sorry), I would give up homebrewing if I was forced to pick between extract and nothing at all. I know that's completely unrealistic, but I just wouldn't feel the same about the hobby.

Ryanh1801 said:

I went all grain for one reason, to make the best beer possible. To me you just can't do that with extract. While my two extract batch's were drinkable and good, I would not call them great. Most of my All grains I can call great, and would rather drink them than a commercial beer of the same style. I don't even use DME for starters anymore, I always save some left over wort and freeze it.

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Most of even the all extract batches I made were better than anything at the grocery. (as opposed to a liquor barn, party mart etc.)

And 2 batches is hardly expert brewer status, but to compare your first 2 noob batches to what you do now is a little unfair. No matter what the ingredients. The PM's I make now are far superior to me first 2 AG batches.

To each their own, but AG snobbery is caused partly by the fact that you are a noob when you were in the extract phase.(in 90% of cases)

So a comparison of your own batches is a little unfair. If I had done AG from the start, by now my AG batches would be far superior to my first 2 AG batches with no other factor involved but time and experience.

cheezydemon said:

Most of even the all extract batches I made were better than anything at the grocery. (as opposed to a liquor barn, party mart etc.)

And 2 batches is hardly expert brewer status, but to compare your first 2 noob batches to what you do now is a little unfair. No matter what the ingredients. The PM's I make now are far superior to me first 2 AG batches.

To each their own, but AG snobbery is caused partly by the fact that you are a noob when you were in the extract phase.(in 90% of cases)

So a comparison of your own batches is a little unfair. If I had done AG from the start, by now my AG batches would be far superior to my first 2 AG batches with no other factor involved but time and experience.

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Not really a good argument, because my first two AG batch's where amazing, in comparison to my Extract batch's. Sorry but I just don't see the argument. Their is not much to mess up in an Extract batch, experiences does not really do that much to an extract batch, as it does to All grain brewing. Im not saying all grain is for everyone, and im not trying to put those down that do extract, but I will never go back to it.

I totally agree with you cheezy. I know that I make better beers despite brewing all grain. It's more an issue of not screwing things up as much anymore. I'm still an AG snob though because I still equate extract brewing to making instant iced tea. Sure, you can squeeze a fresh lemon into it, but it still came from powder. I'm pretty sure I can make my "best" extract batch ever if I wanted to.

Bobby_M said:

I totally agree with you cheezy. I know that I make better beers despite brewing all grain. It's more an issue of not screwing things up as much anymore. I'm still an AG snob though because I still equate extract brewing to making instant iced tea. Sure, you can squeeze a fresh lemon into it, but it still came from powder. I'm pretty sure I can make my "best" extract batch ever if I wanted to.

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Agree - it always felt sort of like making coffee to me. Plus, my wife was like, "It's not very creative when you just pour all that goop in there".

I then explained to her the steeping grains adding flavor, the goop replacing the base grains, etc., and she actually said, "Why don't you just use the grains alone?".

The next week I dropped some serious cash on AG gear!

blacklab said:

Agree - it always felt sort of like making coffee to me. Plus, my wife was like, "It's not very creative when you just pour all that goop in there".

I then explained to her the steeping grains adding flavor, the goop replacing the base grains, etc., and she actually said, "Why don't you just use the grains alone?".

The next week I dropped some serious cash on AG gear!

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Its funny you mention your wife because SWMBO said something similar. Before I started brewing I knew the process roughly and I'd talk about how craft brewers don't usually use corn or rice like BMC. So when I first started, SWMBO was like "Do craft brewers use powder and syrup??". Thats when I knew I would go AG eventually...

*disclaimer - brew which ever way you are comfortable brewing*

Nothing like having the lady of the house call you out!

After reading this thread, im 100% going to go at least PM. Actually very excited about it. I think eventually I will go AG, not really because I think it will taste better (which it may), but because it takes more than pooring "goop" in my kettle.

THAT, and my brews have had a nagging tendency to have this generic taste when using extract brewing. Im sick of it. I hope that PM/AG will help, but if it doesnt I have more problems with my beers than i thought.

Anyway, Extract has treated me well, but im sick of the cans, prices, generic tastes, and the process.

EamusCatuli said:

After reading this thread, im 100% going to go at least PM.

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As I'm sure you've read elsewhere on this forum, make sure you buy a MLT big enough to hold enough grain and water for AG's, if you're going to go PM. Otherwise you'll end up buying two coolers. The 10 gallon rubbermaid is cheap and easy and will work with your PM batches as well as AG if you want to make the jump later(think you will).

stevecaaster said:

Anyone else completely despise extract?

<snip>

Basically what I am getting at is extract does suck really bad, I know that there are a lot of brewers that stand up for it, and that is understood...

Anyone else completely despise extract or have a really bad experiance with it? Anyone really hate it for its demonic flavors? anyone that doesnt stand up for it?

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In order:

No.

No it doesn't.

No.

No.

I think that about covers it, and no, I'm not deluded by the fact that I brew only extract. I regularly drink a selection of great craft brews, bottle and draft- Dogfish Head, Three Floyds, Avery, Left Hand, yadda-yadda. I believe that there are advantages in AG brewing, a lot of which relate to being able to have a finer degree of control over the finished product. So far, that hasn't bothered me. The other is people who are obsessed with getting a pale, anemic color in their beer, just like a BMC lager.......and, yeah, that doesn't bother me either.

A suggestion: If you want to brew AG and like it, have at it. What you've written doesn't convince me of its superiority, however.

One thing I see in the first post is that it's about extract only and all grain - and does not say anything about the range of extract with grains and partial mashing in the middle.

I've found that extract with grains is much better than extract alone, and I haven't been able to tell too much of a difference (except in price and time taken to brew) between good PM (using extra light dme as the only type of extract) and all grain batches that I've made.

Way to resurrect a 10 month old thread :rockin:

I'm not sure why anyone would 'despise' extract, or even despise any method of brewing, seems a little bit elitist or something. I for one haven't even been brewing a year, I am extract brewing right now, with good results, you don't just wake up one day with all the knowledge equipped for All Grain. I want to learn the absolute in's and out's of extract, about my finished product, about what works well with what before even considering the move to All Grain. I'm sure you brew great beer, power to you, but I just can't understand the title or the logic of this thread, we all share the love of beer and brewing, there's no real place for 'despise' in homebrewing as far as I'm concerned, and better still, show a good example for me and the rest of the noobs! peace!