Belgian Dark Strong Ale The Pious - Westvleteren 12 style quad - multiple

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Bottoms_Up said:
I thought about that, but I read that they are not very accurate, since they pick up some of the temperature of the air outside the carboy. Thus they could indicate a temperature several degrees lower than the interior wort temperature. But I suppose it could give a relative indication.
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Yeah if you want pinpoint accuracy theyre probably not that great. I dont have accuracy in any part of my brewing after the boil so a few degrees off is ok by me:)


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You wouldn't think that they are accurate but I have found that the stick-on thermometers measure the temperature of beer inside a carboy very accurately, no more than 1-2°F off. You just have to be careful to not get them wet, or cover them with a layer of clear tape.
 
After only 22 hours of fermentation, the temperature was already up to 80 F. It rose to 83 F a couple of hours later, so I had to remove the blankets wrapped around the carboy (room temperature 75 F). A lot of the foam was siphoning out through my blow-off tube, so I replaced it with a 1 inch inside diameter (1-1/4" OD) clear plastic tube that just snugly fit into the mouth of the carboy - can't get any larger than that. That seems to work -- for now, anyway. The stick-on thermometer shows 81 F (only goes up to 82 F) while the meat thermometer (taped probe to side of carboy and covered with insulation, and that in turn covered by the blanket) shows 83 F. I'm not sure which is more reliable.
 
Bottoms_Up said:
I'm currently making a yeast starter, and am planning to brew the "New World" recipe on Tuesday (have all the ingredients). I was wondering - since this uses enough grain to make 10 gallons of lower gravity beer, and since we are basically just using the "first runnings" of the mash, would there be enough sugar left in the grain after drawing out what is needed for the Westy to make 2 or 3 gallons of lower gravity beer (say S.G. of about 1.048) if more water was sparged through the grain? Has anyone tried this?
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Bottoms_Up said:
Well, I did some research and some calculations, and it appears that the Westy will take up almost all of the gravity points in the grain. There might be enough left in the grains for a quart or two, but that's hardly worthwhile. The partygyle approach seems to be more applicable to a beer such as barleywine, where about 30 pounds of grain are used for 5 gallons, rather than about 18 pounds as for the Westy.
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there will still be sugar in there. after you've collected all your wort for the westie, shut off the output valve of your mash-tun, add some more 170*F sparge water and let it sit for a half hour or hour. the resultant "Second runnings" will be of higher gravity than if you took them immediately after completing the primary run-off.

whenever i do a second runnings beer, i always have some extract on hand. if the gravity isn't high enough, throw in some DME or LME.

i like partigyle brewing... it's completely flying by the seat of your pants. you gotta roll with whatever is thrown at you, it can't be predicted.
 
sweetcell said:
there will still be sugar in there. after you've collected all your wort for the westie, shut off the output valve of your mash-tun, add some more 170*F sparge water and let it sit for a half hour or hour. the resultant "Second runnings" will be of higher gravity than if you took them immediately after completing the primary run-off.

whenever i do a second runnings beer, i always have some extract on hand. if the gravity isn't high enough, throw in some DME or LME.

i like partigyle brewing... it's completely flying by the seat of your pants. you gotta roll with whatever is thrown at you, it can't be predicted.
Click to expand...

Thank you. I wasn't aware that a significant amount of sugar can still be leached from the grains if left standing long enough. I'll give that a try next time - and have some DME on hand just in case. Might be able to get a light beer out of it, in which I can throw in some of my left-overs and see what happens.

I'm also thinking of brewing a high gravity wort and canning it for addition (rather than using expensive DME) if my gravity isn't high enough for any beer, such as it was for the Westy. I've heard pros and cons of doing that, and some suggest that it should only be done if using a pressure cooker/canner. Anyone try this?
 
CSI said:
I'd probably mirror butterpants' statement on this. There's a range of CO2 volumes for Quads. The Westvleteren 12 seems to be in the 2.5-2.6 range although it is claimed to be higher.
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I guess mine got a little fat on the 5 gallon batch that I kegged. Measured right around 50 psi at 75 degrees F - about 3.44 bar. Somewhere in the 3.5-4.0 volumes of CO2 range. I know that 3.58 volumes of CO2 = 50.0 psi at 75F.

Primed with Simplicity at about 35 grams per gallon - slightly over recommended by CSI.

Anyone have a force carbonation chart up to and including room temperature? Once I cool the keg back down (almost at the end of the 6 weeks at room temp part) I can measure again and see if I need to degas a vol or so out of solution slowly.
 
My attemept to make another batch of the new world recipe failed. I wanted a high FG beer(+1020)to mix with my last batch(1006). But this new batch has a gravity of 1011 after 7 days. Even though i did a mashschedule that i thought would be less fermentable.


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rockdemon said:
My attemept to make another batch of the new world recipe failed. I wanted a high FG beer(+1020)to mix with my last batch(1006). But this new batch has a gravity of 1011 after 7 days. Even though i did a mashschedule that i thought would be less fermentable.
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Why would you want a higher final gravity?
 
rockdemon said:
My attemept to make another batch of the new world recipe failed. I wanted a high FG beer(+1020)to mix with my last batch(1006). But this new batch has a gravity of 1011 after 7 days. Even though i did a mashschedule that i thought would be less fermentable.


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Click to expand...

Are you racking to secondary when you're within a few points of your desired FG? Is your thermometer calibrated, accurate, and precise and are you doing a mash-out to arrest conversion?
 
orangehero said:
Are you racking to secondary when you're within a few points of your desired FG? Is your thermometer calibrated, accurate, and precise and are you doing a mash-out to arrest conversion?
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Ive been waiting for about 7 days before racking and readin. Thermometer is calibrated. On this brew i did a mash out at 78C. On the one before i did a 90 min mash at 65C. I think the problem might be the yeast. Ive been using this mix of bottle harvested st. Bernardus and the wyeast high gravity. Perhaps st. B yeast is the problem. A big part of that yeast is probably bottling yeast and that might be some kind of super attenuative yeast. All the beers ive made with this yeast has gone below 1008. So i tries using less yeast for this last one. It worked but i still used too much it seems.


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rockdemon said:
My attemept to make another batch of the new world recipe failed. I wanted a high FG beer(+1020)to mix with my last batch(1006). But this new batch has a gravity of 1011 after 7 days. Even though i did a mashschedule that i thought would be less fermentable.


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Click to expand...

What is your pitch rate?
 
It's been five days since I brewed the Westy, and it had been fermenting at 79-83F for 4 of those days. I was going to wait another day (five days of fermentation at 79-83 was suggested) but the fermentation had really slowed down after the 4 days, so I took the S.G. this morning, and found it was already at 1.010, a little past when I should have dropped the temperature to 65 F. Fortunately, the glass on the fish tank heater in the water bath had cracked during the night, so the temperature had already dropped a little to about 78 by this morning. I have since taken the carboy out of the bath and moved it to a room with a temperature of about 67 F, close to the suggested 65 F. I tasted a small sample and it was delicious. The Candi-syrup subtleties came through. The overall taste was already similar to a Westy, although it didn't seem to have as much of the bready, caramel flavour as in a true Westy. Hopefully ageing will bring that out.

A question for those who have brewed this or similar beers - should the temperature from fermentation (79-83) to resting be dropped slowly over time, or is it OK to let it cool by natural speed by moving it directly from the warm bath to a room with a temperature of about 65F? Thanks.
 
CSI said:
What is your pitch rate?
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No idea! Havent got a clue on how to be able to count how many billion cells i have. Dont have a microscope...
Next time ill just use a smack pack of wyeast high gravity and see where that takes me. But itll have to wait. I have about 50liters of low gravity dark belgian beer in the basement now... I will be popular at work cos ill be giving away a majority of it. The rest i will keep there for 10-12 months and see what happens.

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These big beers need the right pitching rate. I'm from from an experienced brewer but one thing I've learned is when you get around 8% and above brews you need yo make sure your pitching enough yeast and that its good healthy yeast. You can get away with over or under pitching in low ABV beers easier than in the big ones. Also, unless these are going to people who have a good taste for craft/ micro beers they may not pick up on the taste differences of over or under pitched beers.

Unless you're a major brewer none of us know exactly how much yeast were pitching. But, you can use calculators like mrmaltys to get you in the ballpark.
 
bolus14 said:
These big beers need the right pitching rate. I'm from from an experienced brewer but one thing I've learned is when you get around 8% and above brews you need yo make sure your pitching enough yeast and that its good healthy yeast. You can get away with over or under pitching in low ABV beers easier than in the big ones. Also, unless these are going to people who have a good taste for craft/ micro beers they may not pick up on the taste differences of over or under pitched beers.

Unless you're a major brewer none of us know exactly how much yeast were pitching. But, you can use calculators like mrmaltys to get you in the ballpark.
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I used some bottleharvested yeast plus a smackpack and did a 3 liter starter with it and that gave me either too much yeast or a yeast that is too "aggressive". Used that mixed yeast for a tripel now. Went from 1070-1005 in 6 days. I really like the idea of using bottleharvested yeast but it seems too hard to calculate the amount and quality o that yeast. So from now on ill just use bought yeast. Atleast until i get more control of my brewing...



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I think rockdemon identified the cause of the over-attenuation. A measured starter or measurement of packed sediment, (4-4.5 B/ml), will be a starting point toward fixing over-attenuation. A microscope/hemocytometer should not be necessary to get within a reasonable pitch rate to hit FG.
 
rockdemon said:
I used some bottleharvested yeast plus a smackpack and did a 3 liter starter with it and that gave me either too much yeast or a yeast that is too "aggressive". Used that mixed yeast for a tripel now. Went from 1070-1005 in 6 days. I really like the idea of using bottleharvested yeast but it seems too hard to calculate the amount and quality o that yeast. So from now on ill just use bought yeast. Atleast until i get more control of my brewing...



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Click to expand...

The Fix rate is based on 100% viable yeast so the more active the better, so long as you are pitching to the OG you have. You can consult many online pitch charts. I use our own since it's easy to get to:

http://www.candisyrup.com/uploads/6/0/3/5/6035776/pitching_rates_-_rev_1.14.pdf

For an OG of 1.090 I like to pitch 300-310B.
 
CSI said:
The Fix rate is based on 100% viable yeast so the more active the better, so long as you are pitching to the OG you have. You can consult many online pitch charts. I use our own since it's easy to get to:

http://www.candisyrup.com/uploads/6/0/3/5/6035776/pitching_rates_-_rev_1.14.pdf

For an OG of 1.090 I like to pitch 300-310B.
Click to expand...

Im not sharp enough to understand how to use that chart... If i make a 2000ml starter with my 50ml superyeast for 15L of 1074 wort i would probably overpitch like crazy...

Since im not really discussing the recipe(im just nagging about my fermentation-issue) Ill send you a private message instead. hope its ok
 
rockdemon said:
Im not sharp enough to understand how to use that chart... If i make a 2000ml starter with my 50ml superyeast for 15L of 1074 wort i would probably overpitch like crazy...

Since im not really discussing the recipe(im just nagging about my fermentation-issue) Ill send you a private message instead. hope its ok
Click to expand...

Ok
 
Well i bottled this one 5 months ago and thought I would crack one to see how it was progressing.
VIrtually no carbonation.
Used 1762 belgian yeast and wonder if the ABV is too high for it to carb the bottles? My Brewmate program indicates 14% ABV

I am thinking of opening them and giving them some more yeast and maybe another dose of dextrose. I would do a test run on a couple of bottles only.

is that ABV an issue for 1762 ? If so can anyone tell me if they had same problem and what yeast would be good for carbing the high ABV beer?
 
You should be able to use corn sugar and safeale 05 for bottling. Easy to measure both out for the process. I don't bottle anymore unless I bottle from the keg because I'm lazy and hate filling bottles lol.
 
tehnick said:
You should be able to use corn sugar and safeale 05 for bottling. Easy to measure both out for the process. I don't bottle anymore unless I bottle from the keg because I'm lazy and hate filling bottles lol.
Click to expand...


Ive been using safbrew f-2 for bottle conditioning without much success. Its hard to know the right amount when its 2 to 7 grams for 100 liters. And im usually doing 10-12 liters. Its alcohol tolerance is only >10% aswell. Do you think the safale us-05 is better for bottling?


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Does anyone familiar with making the Westvleteren clone know how critical the 'lagering' temperature of 50 F is? I currently have a pilsner lagering in my temperature-controlled freezer at close to freezing temperature. I could raise that temperature to about 40F if necessary to accommodate both. Will that be too cold for the Westvleteren?
 
CSI said:
The Fix rate is based on 100% viable yeast so the more active the better, so long as you are pitching to the OG you have. You can consult many online pitch charts. I use our own since it's easy to get to:

http://www.candisyrup.com/uploads/6/0/3/5/6035776/pitching_rates_-_rev_1.14.pdf

For an OG of 1.090 I like to pitch 300-310B.
Click to expand...

i also find the chart confusing. if i am reading it right, the standard pitch rate for 1.090 lager is 506B and the underpitch is 405B, do you under under pitch to 300B?
 
rockdemon said:
Ive been using safbrew f-2 for bottle conditioning without much success. Its hard to know the right amount when its 2 to 7 grams for 100 liters. And im usually doing 10-12 liters. Its alcohol tolerance is only >10% aswell. Do you think the safale us-05 is better for bottling?


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Click to expand...

I'd use a dry yeast with a high abv tolerance and a sensitive scale to weigh the yeast. The one I have is accurate to 0.001 of a gram so it can be used to measure dry yeast to pitch for bottling.

I keg now, but get yourself a good high quality scale. You can usually find them at any head shop where they sell smoking supplies.
 
itsratso said:
i also find the chart confusing. if i am reading it right, the standard pitch rate for 1.090 lager is 506B and the underpitch is 405B, do you under under pitch to 300B?
Click to expand...

The Westy 12 is an ale. You may be reading the lager column.

Ale at 1.090 has a pitch of 338 Billion per 5 gallons with a -20% under-pitch of 270 Billion, (per 5 gallons). We pitch the Westmalle strain at 300-310 Billion with good results each time.
 
CSI said:
The Westy 12 is an ale. You may be reading the lager column.

Ale at 1.090 has a pitch of 338 Billion per 5 gallons with a -20% under-pitch of 270 Billion, (per 5 gallons). We pitch the Westmalle strain at 300-310 Billion with good results each time.
Click to expand...

duh :eek: all this talk of lagering times got me confused.
 
el_caro said:
Well i bottled this one 5 months ago and thought I would crack one to see how it was progressing.
VIrtually no carbonation.
Used 1762 belgian yeast and wonder if the ABV is too high for it to carb the bottles? My Brewmate program indicates 14% ABV

I am thinking of opening them and giving them some more yeast and maybe another dose of dextrose. I would do a test run on a couple of bottles only.

is that ABV an issue for 1762 ? If so can anyone tell me if they had same problem and what yeast would be good for carbing the high ABV beer?
Click to expand...

I recently had an issue with an imperial stout that was in a barrel. The yeast wouldn't carbonate. I picked up a packet of dry champagne yeast. I rehydrated and then mixed it up well. I used a 1/4 tsp measuring spoon and dropped some in each one, capped and gave it a spin or two upside down to mix it. If you already have put priming sugar in the bottles, do not put any more in there. If the beer isn't carbonated and you put the right amount of sugar in there, then the sugar isn't consumed yet.
 
When using yeast with the priming sugar. Does it only take a little too much to make bottlebombs or the ones that start foaming crazy when uncapping? Ive been supercareful with the safbrew f2 and im thinking of stepping it up just a little bit with the next bottling...


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GregKelley said:
I recently had an issue with an imperial stout that was in a barrel. The yeast wouldn't carbonate. I picked up a packet of dry champagne yeast. I rehydrated and then mixed it up well. I used a 1/4 tsp measuring spoon and dropped some in each one, capped and gave it a spin or two upside down to mix it. If you already have put priming sugar in the bottles, do not put any more in there. If the beer isn't carbonated and you put the right amount of sugar in there, then the sugar isn't consumed yet.
Click to expand...

OT Warning. I did the exact same thing using Lalvin champagne yeast with a Barleywine many years ago. It took about 12 months to carbonate but it eventually turned out great. It was like sweet carbonated Scotch :) !!!
 

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