Saison Shipwrecked Saison

Adding lactic acid/acid malt is mainly to bring the mash ph down. I would never recommend adding lactic acid after the mash, especially at bottling. Ive done this recipe without acid malt and its unnoticeable. If you dont mash, I would just skip that part and not take your chances with screwing up a decent beer at bottling.

finsfan said:

Adding lactic acid/acid malt is mainly to bring the mash ph down. I would never recommend adding lactic acid after the mash, especially at bottling. Ive done this recipe without acid malt and its unnoticeable. If you dont mash, I would just skip that part and not take your chances with screwing up a decent beer at bottling.

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I didn't read all 239 posts, perhaps the true function of the added acid was visited already. That subtle sourness can help in taste perception and make the beer a tad more refreshing at the same time. Particularly at very low final gravities an ever so slight hint of sourness can stand out enough to set it apart from the common. I don't see any problem with that small acid addition.

For example, last week I tasted my starter beer from ECY11 (Witbier yeast) and noticed a fairly strong sour taste, possibly due to oxidation, it's a starter beer after all, and they tend to taste funny. Now that sourness really wasn't offensive, and I would welcome and hope for a little of it in the final Witbier. So far that didn't happen as an early sample at 1.017 was very clean (and also very good). I may actually add some lactic to that beer when all is done.

@CaptBrew8386, It will be challenging to get your extract Saison down into the single digits (<1.010). If you can elaborate on your brew methods (e.g., full or partial boil, size kettle, yeast, fermentation method), we may be able to give you some critical pointers.

The 0.5 oz (14 grams) of crushed coriander sounds like a real lot.

IslandLizard said:

I didn't read all 239 posts, perhaps the true function of the added acid was visited already. That subtle sourness can help in taste perception and make the beer a tad more refreshing at the same time. Particularly at very low final gravities an ever so slight hint of sourness can stand out enough to set it apart from the common. I don't see any problem with that small acid addition.

For example, last week I tasted my starter beer from ECY11 (Witbier yeast) and noticed a fairly strong sour taste, possibly due to oxidation, it's a starter beer after all, and they tend to taste funny. Now that sourness really wasn't offensive, and I would welcome and hope for a little of it in the final Witbier. So far that didn't happen as an early sample at 1.017 was very clean (and also very good). I may actually add some lactic to that beer when all is done.

@CaptBrew8386, It will be challenging to get your extract Saison down into the single digits (<1.010). If you can elaborate on your brew methods (e.g., full or partial boil, size kettle, yeast, fermentation method), we may be able to give you some critical pointers.

The 0.5 oz (14 grams) of crushed coriander sounds like a real lot.

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I do agree with you that a hint of tartness or acidity wouldnt harm this beer at all. My only concern is adding in "fake" acidity, as far as the brewing process goes. I have never tried this method before so I cant fully argue one way or the other, but a lot of high profile brewers (oldsock for example) will tell you that adding lactic acid to a beer to add sourness isnt the best route to go for taste. I'd be interested to hear if you have ever added lactic acid at bottling before. If I would ever be inclined to adding lactic acid, it would be a in the fermentor a few weeks before bottling.

As far as getting a dry, low gravity beer with this recipe, I would HIGHLY recommend using Belle Saison yeast. I have used the recommended 3726 with this beer a few times and I can tell you that the belle makes a better all around beer, hands down. This has become my go to saison yeast after trying out several others and I have used it about 4-5 time already this year.

finsfan said:

I do agree with you that a hint of tartness or acidity wouldnt harm this beer at all. My only concern is adding in "fake" acidity, as far as the brewing process goes. I have never tried this method before so I cant fully argue one way or the other, but a lot of high profile brewers (oldsock for example) will tell you that adding lactic acid to a beer to add sourness isnt the best route to go for taste. I'd be interested to hear if you have ever added lactic acid at bottling before. If I would ever be inclined to adding lactic acid, it would be a in the fermentor a few weeks before bottling.

As far as getting a dry, low gravity beer with this recipe, I would HIGHLY recommend using Belle Saison yeast. I have used the recommended 3726 with this beer a few times and I can tell you that the belle makes a better all around beer, hands down. This has become my go to saison yeast after trying out several others and I have used it about 4-5 time already this year.

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In return, I fully agree with you, adding lactic acid (or any other acid) to a beer is definitely the wrong way to create sours, but in small quantities some subtle acidification through a lactic or phosphoric acid addition, is fine, as long as you can't really taste it. Phosphoric acid is more neutral to our palate, so larger quantities may be used before its flavor becomes detectable. Now more is generally not better, since we want a subtle change to perk the taste buds. A good high carbonation serves a similar purpose.

Other than for genuine pH correction, I don't see why adding those small amounts of acid to a bottling bucket would be any different than adding it to a primary or secondary, except, if the pH drops too low in a fermentor, yeast activity and behavior will suffer. Hence I suggested adding it later.

No, I've not had the need or urge to add acid before packaging. But I do add some to mash and sparge waters to obtain correct pH, and nothing beyond that.

I now start to wonder where the various acid/pH levels lie with extract brews. I've never measured those in the past...

+1 on the Belle Saison. And it gets better with subsequent use, so @CaptBrew8386, harvest some for your next batch.

IslandLizard said:

In return, I fully agree with you, adding lactic acid (or any other acid) to a beer is definitely the wrong way to create sours, but in small quantities some subtle acidification through a lactic or phosphoric acid addition, is fine, as long as you can't really taste it. Phosphoric acid is more neutral to our palate, so larger quantities may be used before its flavor becomes detectable. Now more is generally not better, since we want a subtle change to perk the taste buds. A good high carbonation serves a similar purpose.

Other than for genuine pH correction, I don't see why adding those small amounts of acid to a bottling bucket would be any different than adding it to a primary or secondary, except, if the pH drops too low in a fermentor, yeast activity and behavior will suffer. Hence I suggested adding it later.

No, I've not had the need or urge to add acid before packaging. But I do add some to mash and sparge waters to obtain correct pH, and nothing beyond that.

I now start to wonder where the various acid/pH levels lie with extract brews. I've never measured those in the past...

+1 on the Belle Saison. And it gets better with subsequent use, so @CaptBrew8386, harvest some for your next batch.

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Sounds like we need to do an experiment with lactic acid at bottling haha.

Thanks for the heads up on the belle yeast as well. I had collected the yeast from my latest batch, but there was so much hop debris and trub that I dumped it after failing to wash it. Will have to make a cleaner batch next time and collect it after a few weeks.

finsfan said:

Sounds like we need to do an experiment with lactic acid at bottling haha.

Thanks for the heads up on the belle yeast as well. I had collected the yeast from my latest batch, but there was so much hop debris and trub that I dumped it after failing to wash it. Will have to make a cleaner batch next time and collect it after a few weeks.

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The first time I used Belle Saison it was pitched into a very clean wort, no trub and ended up with a boatload of it, so harvesting was easy. The 2nd time not so. I ended up with almost half a gallon of yeast/trub mix that proved to be inseparable, and saved most of it.

A few months later, I scooped some of the trubby yeast out and made a starter for the next batch. Again I could not separate yeast from trub, so the whole slurry was pitched after decanting the hazy starter beer. That was probably the best Saison to date, and possibly so because it had picked up a slight lacto infection by that time. No pellicle, but a certain tartness that worked well in that wheaty Saison.

Another starter from the same trubby yeast jar developed a pellicle within a week...

IslandLizard said:

I didn't read all 239 posts, perhaps the true function of the added acid was visited already. That subtle sourness can help in taste perception and make the beer a tad more refreshing at the same time. Particularly at very low final gravities an ever so slight hint of sourness can stand out enough to set it apart from the common. I don't see any problem with that small acid addition.

For example, last week I tasted my starter beer from ECY11 (Witbier yeast) and noticed a fairly strong sour taste, possibly due to oxidation, it's a starter beer after all, and they tend to taste funny. Now that sourness really wasn't offensive, and I would welcome and hope for a little of it in the final Witbier. So far that didn't happen as an early sample at 1.017 was very clean (and also very good). I may actually add some lactic to that beer when all is done.

@CaptBrew8386, It will be challenging to get your extract Saison down into the single digits (<1.010). If you can elaborate on your brew methods (e.g., full or partial boil, size kettle, yeast, fermentation method), we may be able to give you some critical pointers.

The 0.5 oz (14 grams) of crushed coriander sounds like a real lot.

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@IslandLizard I have a 10gal pot that I do full boil 5gal batches with. I've steeped on occasion. I use a 6gal glass carboy for fermentation.

For the yeast, I've heard good things about the Belle Saison so I was definitely going to use it.

I don't have a fermentation chamber and I haven't had to ferment at high temps. Normally I put my beers in the basement bathroom and they do great btwn 65-70F. I can go lower if I place my carboy next to my air handler. For a higher temp. fermentation I would put this upstairs with maybe a heating pad wrapped around it.

I can take out the acid malt altogether since I don't really know what it is anyway, haha!

I'm still learning %'s in LME and DME so I'll have to do some research and adjust as per your suggestion.

Lots of learning going on with this one!

CaptBrew8386 said:

@IslandLizard I have a 10gal pot that I do full boil 5gal batches with. I've steeped on occasion. I use a 6gal glass carboy for fermentation.

For the yeast, I've heard good things about the Belle Saison so I was definitely going to use it.

I don't have a fermentation chamber and I haven't had to ferment at high temps. Normally I put my beers in the basement bathroom and they do great btwn 65-70F. I can go lower if I place my carboy next to my air handler. For a higher temp. fermentation I would put this upstairs with maybe a heating pad wrapped around it.

I can take out the acid malt altogether since I don't really know what it is anyway, haha!

I'm still learning %'s in LME and DME so I'll have to do some research and adjust as per your suggestion.

Lots of learning going on with this one!

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Fermenting low with Belle isnt a problem. i typically ferment around 65 with it and had great results. You certainly can ferment higher though, depending on what you can do with your setup.

finsfan said:

Fermenting low with Belle isnt a problem. i typically ferment around 65 with it and had great results. You certainly can ferment higher though, depending on what you can do with your setup.

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That's good to know because I have a saison going with belle and philly's gone into a mini ice age since I brewed it last weekend. The belle went gang busters for a couple days and has almost completely dropped out already.

wobrien said:

That's good to know because I have a saison going with belle and philly's gone into a mini ice age since I brewed it last weekend. The belle went gang busters for a couple days and has almost completely dropped out already.

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It was probably finished already haha it is ridiculous.

CaptBrew8386 said:

@IslandLizard I have a 10gal pot that I do full boil 5gal batches with. I've steeped on occasion. I use a 6gal glass carboy for fermentation.

For the yeast, I've heard good things about the Belle Saison so I was definitely going to use it.

I don't have a fermentation chamber and I haven't had to ferment at high temps. Normally I put my beers in the basement bathroom and they do great btwn 65-70F. I can go lower if I place my carboy next to my air handler. For a higher temp. fermentation I would put this upstairs with maybe a heating pad wrapped around it.

I can take out the acid malt altogether since I don't really know what it is anyway, haha!

I'm still learning %'s in LME and DME so I'll have to do some research and adjust as per your suggestion.

Lots of learning going on with this one!

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Full boils are great. Just add 1/3 of extract at the beginning of the boil and the rest at flameout. Less caramelization and darkening that way, and prevents scorching too.

Look up mini mash on how to do it to convert your 8oz of Vienna. It will convert itself, no additional base malt needed. Mashing is similar to steeping but with tighter parameters as to water volume irt grain weight, and temps. A mash temp of 148-150 is a good target for this Saison. Add the sweet wort it creates to the boil kettle at the beginning, and simply include its volume into your calculations for the amount of water needed to end up at your target volume after the boil is over.
Note: It's way easier to add some extra water at the end than to deal with too much volume.

Make sure to rehydrate the Belle Saison precisely according to Danstar's instructions. More cells will survive that way compared to sprinkling on top of the wort, and it will be more ready to ferment.

If you like more fruitiness and ester characteristics a higher ferm temp will accomplish that. You can go as high as 85-90 with that yeast.

As said before, the purpose of the acid addition in the original recipe is not very clear. It really doesn't need it with extracts, unless it's for a very slight acidity increase to enhance flavor perception.

Briess' Bavarian Wheat DME is 65% wheat 35% barley, so you would need 2# / 0.65 = 3# of that to get 2# of wheat malt in your extract recipe.
The 3# will at the same time add 1# of barley DME (3# * 0.35 = 1#). That would be equivalent to about 1.25# of LME, so you would end up using only 5.5# of Pilsner LME (6.7 - 1.25 = 5.5) to keep everything else the same.

That 1/2 oz of coriander (seeds) sounds like a heavy dose, don't know why no-one questioned that before. I'd use only half of that, or even less. Maybe the OP used it from a jar in the supermarket, or baggy from the LHBS, both notorious for being old and stale without any good flavor. The Indian market coriander is what you want. The little seeds are a bit oval and greenish brown, not round.

Good luck, and keep us posted!

IslandLizard said:

Make sure to rehydrate the Belle Saison precisely according to Danstar's instructions. More cells will survive that way compared to sprinkling on top of the wort, and it will be more ready to ferment.

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Not to seem like I'm going against everything you suggest today, but you certainty dont have to. I have yet to rehydrate and have also yet to see any negative results from doing so. I believe @wobrien even had fermentation start within hours pitching it dry.

finsfan said:

Not to seem like I'm going against everything you suggest today, but you certainty dont have to. I have yet to rehydrate and have also yet to see any negative results from doing so. I believe @wobrien even had fermentation start within hours pitching it dry.

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Sort of. I rehydrated, but it did in fact start off amazingly fast.

wobrien said:

Sort of. I rehydrated, but it did in fact start off amazingly fast.

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Partially correct. Either way, it will be beer.

IslandLizard said:

Briess' Bavarian Wheat DME is 65% wheat 35% barley, so you would need 2# / 0.65 = 3# of that to get 2# of wheat malt in your extract recipe.
The 3# will at the same time add 1# of barley DME (3# * 0.35 = 1#). That would be equivalent to about 1.25# of LME, so you would end up using only 5.5# of Pilsner LME (6.7 - 1.25 = 5.5) to keep everything else the same.

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I don't want to derail the whole thread and go too much off topic but I'm a bit confused here. I understand that LMEs and DMEs are typically made of a combination of malts. What I've read about converting all-grain to extract is that its based on efficiency. I've read a bunch of articles but this is one example: https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/how-to-brew/3-simple-steps-converting-grain-recipes-extract/

So based on the original all-grain recipe with ~80% efficiency I came up with my original numbers. You then applied your method for breaking down the wheat DME further and adjusting the Pilsner LME accordingly.

Am I following that correctly?

CaptBrew8386 said:

I don't want to derail the whole thread and go too much off topic but I'm a bit confused here. I understand that LMEs and DMEs are typically made of a combination of malts. What I've read about converting all-grain to extract is that its based on efficiency. I've read a bunch of articles but this is one example: https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/how-to-brew/3-simple-steps-converting-grain-recipes-extract/

So based on the original all-grain recipe with ~80% efficiency I came up with my original numbers. You then applied your method for breaking down the wheat DME further and adjusting the Pilsner LME accordingly.

Am I following that correctly?

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Yes.

The original recipe calls for 22% of wheat malt. I adjusted what you had calculated since wheat DME is not 100% wheat. I recalculated your extract recipe: 2# is wheat out of a total of about 8# DME equivalent (3# Wheat DME, 0.8 * 5.5# Pilsner LME, and some for the Vienna), that is ~25% wheat, give or take. I'm converting Pilsner LME to DME equiv., a factor of 0.8. The Vienna is a bit harder as it should be calculated as points or ppg, but it's a only small amount. So it's close.

I'm wondering if an hour boil is really needed for extract, even when only adding 1/3 of it at the beginning. I have a hunch that boiling extract wort tends to cause more unfermentables through caramelization, likely more so than from all grain. If you up the bittering hops dose to get the same IBU for only half an hour boil, there may be a better chance on bringing the FG down into the single digits.

Brewed this last Sunday. Checked the gravity today. It went from 1.067 to 1.008. Belle Saison is a beast!View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1433692480.844082.jpg

This beer has been at FG for probably five days now. I'm not as familiar with saisons. Do you guys normally let them sit in the carboy for a little while to clean up after FG has been reached or go straight to kegging/bottling?

what temperature do you have it at? Saison yeasts like it pretty warm. If you push it past 80, it still may do some work on the sugars....

Other than that I usually do 3 weeks from pitching until I keg or bottle it

Just kegged this up 2 weeks ago and recently tapped. Fantastic beer! Started fermenting at 68 and ramped to 90 over 3 weeks.

Entered into a beer comp next weekend. Will let you know how it does

bmiller8 said:

Just kegged this up 2 weeks ago and recently tapped. Fantastic beer! Started fermenting at 68 and ramped to 90 over 3 weeks.

Entered into a beer comp next weekend. Will let you know how it does

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How were your results from the comp @bmiller8 ?

I can only get 3711 yeast at the moment, what will be the difference in taste compared to the original recipe? I'm still trying to understand the differences in yeasts
thanks!

3711 is much more bright and tart than 3726. It has a definitive lemony zip and is usually capable of getting a beer a bit drier than 3726. It doesnt have the bit of spicy earthy characteristics I get from 3726. I prefer is over 3726

Brew-Dog said:

Update: took a gravity reading tonight and I'm happy to report that it is currently sitting at 1.005 and I think it's still going to drop another couple of points. I'm going to skip the dry hop, the sample was super fruity, quite a bit of citrus and lemon.

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Update #2: The beer turned out great. I kegged half and bottle conditioned the other half. I submitted it to two competitions. It took bronze in category 16 (2009 BJCP guidelines) in one comp, and Gold in the "Belgian" category in the other. I think I'll dry hop it next time I brew it. Thanks for the great recipe!

Going back to this for the 4 or 5th time. All around solid recipe. Going with belle again. Thanks again for a top notch recipe

Has anyone tried to brew this with WLP670? If so how did it turn out? How long did you let ferment for?

I have a starter of this cold crashing in the fridge and I intend to brew this up tomorrow or Wednesday. It'll be my first Brett (blend) beer and first Saison.

Also, what water profile did you all go with? I am following one posted by Brun' that replicates a Belgian profile, found here.

Ca 30 ppm
Mg 17
Na 15
SO4 65
Cl 41
HCO3 60

View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1454803274.839751.jpg

This is right at a year old or so.

Used the base recipe with a sour blend from loloMT

Dam it's tasty right now.

Chris7687 said:

Has anyone tried to brew this with WLP670? If so how did it turn out? How long did you let ferment for?

I have a starter of this cold crashing in the fridge and I intend to brew this up tomorrow or Wednesday. It'll be my first Brett (blend) beer and first Saison.

Also, what water profile did you all go with? I am following one posted by Brun' that replicates a Belgian profile, found here.

Ca 30 ppm
Mg 17
Na 15
SO4 65
Cl 41
HCO3 60

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I have done a batch with WLP670. It was great but it took a LONG time to get to it's best. The first 3-5 months it was just ok.. It peaked at right around 1 year. Also I mashed higher to leave some extra fermentables for the Brett. I use well water and haven't had it tested yet so unsure on the water part. I do use a small Acid malt amount to keep pH in range though. Cheers

Brewed a version of this yesterday:

• Rounded up the grains to whole pounds
• only had 2 ounces of Acid Malt in my inventory (doh!)
• used 1 oz Willamette and 1/4 oz Galena at 60 min
• boiled 1 lb sugar, water and cream of tartar to invert the sugar
• Belle Saison yeast packet

OG 1.066. Less than 12 hours and it's chugging along at 70ºF.
Looking forward to this as a refreshing summer beer.

Just put this in the fermenter with a few alterations, and a concern. The concern I have is due to a low OG, 1052. As I went to clean my kettle I noticed that about 15 crystals of the candi sugar were left partially melted in the pot. I added them solid at flameout, is this normal? Was I supposed to melt them down in some water? Never used candi sugar before.

To remedy, I melted about 10 more in a tiny bit of water, let boil for a few minutes to be safe, cool a bit, and added to my carboy.

Do you think this would cause at least some of the low OG? And how do you normally add your sugar?

Also had to use WY3724, 3726 was not available locally. Any experience or thoughts on that change?

Just put this in the fermenter with a few alterations, and a concern. The concern I have is due to a low OG, 1052. As I went to clean my kettle I noticed that about 15 crystals of the candi sugar were left partially melted in the pot. I added them solid at flameout, is this normal? Was I supposed to melt them down in some water? Never used candi sugar before.

To remedy, I melted about 10 more in a tiny bit of water, let boil for a few minutes to be safe, cool a bit, and added to my carboy.

Do you think this would cause at least some of the low OG? And how do you normally add your sugar?

Also had to use WY3724, 3726 was not available locally. Any experience or thoughts on that change?

But otherwise, love the recipe and really excited for my first Belgian homebrew, cheers and thanks!

I think you'll be fine with that sugar addition. You can add sugar when the beer is at full krausan for less stress on the yeast.
I invert sugar rather than buying candy sugar. WAY cheaper.

What Chops said. You will be fine. I usually add my sugar at 10 mins left in the boil to give enough time to dissolve.

I'd imagine if I skip on the acid malt it wouldn't be a problem? I usually start w/ RO and adjust w/ salts or LA for style and mash pH.

I would like to make this for my local homebrew club's throw down the first week in July. Will that be enough time to let it ferment?

Randomnoob said:

I would like to make this for my local homebrew club's throw down the first week in July. Will that be enough time to let it ferment?

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If you went with a less finicky yeast like WY3711, I don't think you'd have any problem having it ready by then (especially if you're planning on kegging it).

Randomnoob said:

I would like to make this for my local homebrew club's throw down the first week in July. Will that be enough time to let it ferment?

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if you brewed it this weekend, you could have it ready by the first week o June almost

Brew-Dog said:

If you went with a less finicky yeast like WY3711, I don't think you'd have any problem having it ready by then (especially if you're planning on kegging it).

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Ok. I already went to the LHBS and bought everything for this weekend. I did get 3711 because I used it in the past and got good results with it. So yeah, should be good.

m00ps said:

if you brewed it this weekend, you could have it ready by the first week o June almost

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That's what I am doing - brewing it this weekend. Damn, I missed a chance to brew it on Fri, 13. Will never forgive myself.

I am thinking about trying this recipe but I have some WLP 550 lying around. Has anyone tried this? This will be my first attempt at a saison.