Whirlpooling has NEVER created a Trub Cone

I've been brewing about a year and a half, and I have never had a whirlpool give me a nice compacted cone of trub/hop matter as I have seen in so many photos. I am using a 9 gallon ceramic coated lobster pot, I have tried whirlpooling with a brew spoon and with a wine de-gasser attached to a drill, neither has given me the results that I want, and I usually end up taking a good amount of trub into my fermenter.

Suggestions?

I'm in the same boat. It's never really worked for me, so I don't bother anymore. I often use pellet hops; maybe it only works with whole leaf? Your guess is as good as mine. It doesn't seem difficult (swirl and wait, right?), but it just doesn't work for me. Oh well.

Yep me to, I use pellot hops as well.

Never gotten a good trub cone from a whirlpool. I use pellet hops and a keggle.The bottom shape on the keggle doesn't really seem too conducive to cone forming.

How long do you whirlpool for? I've not started yet (will be pumping wort to whirlpool on my new system), but I understand it has to go for a little while to form a nice cone. You'll also not get as good a cone if you're not cooling fast enough. The break material forms better when you cool faster.

Same. With or without whirfloc it never settles into a cone, with whirfloc it never even settles, just forms 2 gallons of fluffy protein break material that laughs at me instead.

I'm treading on controversial waters here apparently, but I don't see how this matters. All you have to do is leave your beer on the primary for about 3 weeks and you'll be able to read the paper through a pint without filtering, cold crashing, or whirlpooling.

I've seen no cones either. I just put it all in the fermenter and my beer turns out fantastic.

Airborneguy said:

I'm treading on controversial waters here apparently, but I don't see how this matters. All you have to do is leave your beer on the primary for about 3 weeks and you'll be able to read the paper through a pint without filtering, cold crashing, or whirlpooling.

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It's nice to not have a gallon of hop trub taking up beer space.

I don't even try to whirlpool. I cool 5 gallons in about 17 minutes, or 10 gallons in about 30 minutes to 70 degrees and get a decent trub at the bottom of the keggle when I transfer to primary. I do find that cold crashing for a few days before bottling/kegging really precipitates all the gunk including hop pellets, and gets impressively clear beer.

Gremlyn1 said:

How long do you whirlpool for? I've not started yet (will be pumping wort to whirlpool on my new system), but I understand it has to go for a little while to form a nice cone. You'll also not get as good a cone if you're not cooling fast enough. The break material forms better when you cool faster.

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I tried whirl pooling twice with my mash paddle, circulating the wart as fast and as uniform as I could for about a minute. Both times failed and the second time I did it for longer. I then let it rest for about half an hour and got nothing.

I then tried with my wine degasser and that thing makes a huge whirl pool, but then again nothing. All the hops settle but never in a cone.

I cool my wort down to about 70 degrees in about 12 to 15 minutes, circulating ice water through my immersion chiller. The cold break is very obvious with my brewing so i don’t think that is the problem.

Could it be that a keg is my boil kettle? The bottom of it is not flat but dips down.

Airborneguy said:

I'm treading on controversial waters here apparently, but I don't see how this matters. All you have to do is leave your beer on the primary for about 3 weeks and you'll be able to read the paper through a pint without filtering, cold crashing, or whirlpooling.

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I lost about a gallon and a half of beer last time on my black IPA; it had loads of hops and took up a lot of space in my fermenter to the point that I could not get that gallon and a half back. No matter what I put on my racking cane the hops clogged it. It is not a real problem for me other than having to loose beer at the end, and really that is only when I do big IIPA's.

I now use a hop bag, but now I am paranoid about my hop utilization. Even though I still get great beer, there is something about seen the hops swim freely in the beer.

I've never been able to get the elusive trub cone either. I just put a hop bag over the end of my auto-siphon and have the output of the auto-siphon go to a filter screen on my funnel. I end up with no more than an inch of trub and yeast at the end of fermentation. I consistently get 7 6-packs plus one or two extra bottles out of each brew.

I try and whirlpool as well and discovered I have better results by stirring slow to fast hitting the sides of my kettle (more of a whole arm circular motion). When the wort funnel forms in the middle I continue stirring but move to the center of the funnel with very fast (more wrist motions) for a couple seconds. Plop the sanitized lid on for a few minutes and MUCH...NOT ALL of my hop and grain matter settles to the center. I had a real nice blob of trub in the center of the pot the last two times I did this. I think the technique that worked best for me was moving towards the center of the funnel and continuing the circular motion as fast as you can making smaller 'circles' using your wrist.

SwampassJ said:

It's nice to not have a gallon of hop trub taking up beer space.

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I just filter it through a SS strainer. No trub and perfect aerator.

GodsStepBrother said:

No matter what I put on my racking cane the hops clogged it.

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When going from BK to fermenter, I open up the spigot and use the 5 gallon paint strainer around the inside of the bucket. After the BK is empty then with sanitized hands lift up the paint strainer and twist / squeeze out any remaining beer. Towards the end the bottom of the paint strainer will get all clogged up so you may need to let the remaining beer flow out of the upper portion of the bag.

When using a racking cane, are you putting the strainer around the racking tip or the hose? Is it loose or taught?

I stir but don't get a cone. What I do is come out of my valve into a funnel with a paint strainer bag. That catches all the crap.

FWIW, the last batch I brewed using dried hop leaves instead of pellets (first batch I did NOT using a kit) and I couldn't BELIEVE how clear my beer turned out. I boiled, cooled using a wort-chiller (went FAST, too) and just dumped the whole thing into a bucket. I had far less "gunk" in the beer than usual, and even though it's a much darker color - around 20 SRM - you can still read through it in a thin glass.

No whirlfloc, no cold-crashing - no special tricks. Leaf hops "FTW."

Yeah, I have come to believe the trub cone after whirlpooling is the snipe hunt of the homebrewing world. All these folks are just laughing at us idiots trying like mad to whirlpool a trub cone. Every once in a while one of the sadistic bastards strains out his trub and scoops it into a nice cone so he can take a picture and go "See? It's easy!"

I've tried with and without whirlfloc, with 5 minutes of stirring, with 20 minutes of stirring. I've waited up to 60 minutes after stirring. I've tried with a drill powered paint mixer to get that stuff spinning faster than any man should spin anything.

I've now given up. Everything into the carboys. I get 3"+ of trub in my fermenter, but I have 6.5 gal fermenters, blow off tubes on each one, and I always have enough to completely fill my 5 gal kegs, so screw it.

I can get a trub cone. I have to chill, give it a big stir, and leave it covered for 20 - 30 minutes. That said, I almost never do it. That is what 6g fermenters are good for.

I managed to more or less form one this weekend, but I would call it more of a mound than cone. One thing I did do that helped a ton was to use a 5 gallon paint strainer bag to hold the hops and coriander in (wit beer). I just dump them in into the bag, then secure the bag to the brew pot handle.

There was only about a pint of crap left at the bottom after is was all said and done, withe the outer inch or so of the pot being trub free.

I would imagine that the type of beer makes a good difference on the trub produced.

Yes, I get a "mound" too. I also see I should have mentioned that I use a hanging hop bag, pellet hops, whirlfloc, plate chiller, electric keggle, and pump.

I think without the large electric element, I'd get a much better cone.

No trub cone for me, but I don't really care. I just pour into the fermenter until I hit my target volume and it leaves about 90% of everything behind anyway.

I think I have given up on the whole whirlpooling thing, however I would love to leave as much break material and hops behind.

-=Jason=-

At the moment, I think I'm giving up on the whirlpool too until I get a new kettle and pump and install a whirlpool/recirc tube. Has anyone ever run hot wort thru a counterflow or plate chiller, then run it back into the kettle for whirlpool? would that work?

zgardener said:

At the moment, I think I'm giving up on the whirlpool too until I get a new kettle and pump and install a whirlpool/recirc tube. Has anyone ever run hot wort thru a counterflow or plate chiller, then run it back into the kettle for whirlpool? would that work?

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I have tried that method twice now, and here is my opinion.


so my idea if its even worth it, is to go from BK through CFC into a dedicated whirlpool vessel. that way I have cool wort and I can just whirlpool it on high speed and not worry about trying to cool it or a slow whirlpool.

anyone currently doing this?

-=Jason=-

Flomaster said:

I have tried that method twice now, and here is my opinion.

• the reduces flow through the CFC or plate chiller drastically slows the whirlpool. I have bypassed the chiller when doing my clean up with hot oxyclean and it has a very strong whirlpool going on.
• also I noticed it took longer to chill my wort. I was taking the temp of the wort enter back into the BK and it was at 70°F and that was just after boiling, but the huge mass of HOT wort was taking to long to chill.

so my idea if its even worth it, is to go from BK through CFC into a dedicated whirlpool vessel. that way I have cool wort and I can just whirlpool it on high speed and not worry about trying to cool it or a slow whirlpool.anyone currently doing this?

-=Jason=-

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Remember you will need to sanitize everything involved in the dedicated whirlpool vessel (siphon tube, valve, hoses, etc). The advantage of recirculating and whirlpooling in the BK is that the boil takes care of sanitizing every thing involved.

Ed

Ohio-Ed said:

Remember you will need to sanitize everything involved in the dedicated whirlpool vessel (siphon tube, valve, hoses, etc). The advantage of recirculating and whirlpooling in the BK is that the boil takes care of sanitizing every thing involved.

Ed

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Ed, I hear ya, but I could just pump from the BK > CFC > WP Keggle. once done pump into carboy

I don't see having to sanitize one more thing being a problem as long as I can leave of of the trub behind.

-=Jason=-

Does a whirlpool while the wort is hot really even do anything? I usually only see break material when I cool...

I haven't read every post in total detail but from the few I've read, stirring a pot with a paddle for two minutes isn't going to give you remotely what you're looking for.

I have a couple of different circuits that connect to my BK. One is from the BK, to a pump, through a plate chiller and back into the BK for chilling. Another is simply the BK, through the pump, and back to the BK with a curved "outlet" in the BK that I use for whirlpooling.

AFter chilling, I let the whirlpool go a solid half an hour with the March 809 and valves opened completely and every time I end up with a tight little pile of trub at the end. I can then drain off my BK into the fermenter and leave that pile of trub behind.

Like I was saying, stirring it with a paddle isn't going to get you there.

Is it a big deal to get all of that trub out? Not really. When I was building my rig, I planned for the whirlpool capability and its a "nice to have" but I wouldn't sit there for 30 minutes stirring with a paddle to get it.

SwampassJ said:

Same. With or without whirfloc it never settles into a cone, with whirfloc it never even settles, just forms 2 gallons of fluffy protein break material that laughs at me instead.

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Otherwise known as gelatin from the Irish moss/Whirlflocc.

I get a trub cone and I don't get a gelatinous blob of goo despite getting protein break (try SuperMoss HB). You need to chill, whirlpool, then let it sit for a good 15-30 minutes before transferring.

Cape, I have my BK setup similar to your only difference I have a CFC, but my output temps are spot on with the water input temp. how long would you have you have to "chill" with that method?

-=Jason=-

Flomaster said:

Ed, I hear ya, but I could just pump from the BK > CFC > WP Keggle. once done pump into carboy

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I use a more powerful pump than the 809 so I still get sufficient flow through the CFC and back into the BK... but I know a lot of breweries have dedicated whirlpool vessels, so YMMV and I definitely could see how an 809 wouldn't have enough juice to spin up a larger volume batch sufficiently.

Thanks Cape Brewing, sounds exactly the kind of system I want to set up, maybe I'll add a hop-back in the line as well

Flomaster said:

how long would you have you have to "chill" with that method?

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depends on volume... I can drop 15 gallons from a boil to about 75 degrees in about 10-12 minutes. Then it'll take another 10 minutes or so to drop that last 5-10 degrees to pitch temp. The tap water running through the plate chiller just isn't that cold and I've never bothered trying to make it faster. It ain't broke so I ain't fixin' it.

Once chilled, I flip a switch and shut down the circuit to the chill plate and it whirlpools at a pretty decent clip.

Cape Brewing said:

depends on volume... I can drop 15 gallons from a boil to about 75 degrees in about 10-12 minutes. Then it'll take another 10 minutes or so to drop that last 5-10 degrees to pitch temp. The tap water running through the plate chiller just isn't that cold and I've never bothered trying to make it faster. It ain't broke so I ain't fixin' it.

Once chilled, I flip a switch and shut down the circuit to the chill plate and it whirlpools at a pretty decent clip.

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So you recirculate chilled wort and THEN whirlpool?

Yes... The BK "whirlpools" as it is chilling simply from the way the wort is returned to the BK. Once chilled, I shut off the circuit to the chill plate and the flow rate picks up significantly and it whirlpools much stronger.

zgardener said:

I've been brewing about a year and a half, and I have never had a whirlpool give me a nice compacted cone of trub/hop matter as I have seen in so many photos. I am using a 9 gallon ceramic coated lobster pot, I have tried whirlpooling with a brew spoon and with a wine de-gasser attached to a drill, neither has given me the results that I want, and I usually end up taking a good amount of trub into my fermenter.
Suggestions?

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After the boil is finished I wait ≈10 minutes for some of the trub to settle out, then I pump the hot wort into a whirlpool tank.

I don't know if you consider this a nice compact cone.
After 10 minutes of waiting, all pellet hops.
Similar amount stays behind in the brew kettle.


Cheers,
ClaudiusB

It's nice to vent about this illusive trub/hop cone that none of us stirrers are attaining. Feels good to finally open up about it...

I don't get the kind of trub cone ClaudiusB does, but I just stir the kettle with a spoon for a minute and wait 10-15 minutes. I end up with the vast majority of pellet hop and hot break material in a really nice cone in the middle. For a six gallon batch, the first four or four-and-a-half gallons siphoned out of the BK are crystal clear, then I get a gallon-or-so full of fluffy, Whirlfloc cold break, then I quit. I always measure the volume of what's left in the kettle to make sure all my math has worked out right. I have sifted through this stuff with curious hands looking for hop bits,etc. and found very little, BTW. Works for me.

BY THE WAY, some HBT member recently posted about straining and freezing the leftovers for use in starters later. If I ever meet him (or her) I will kiss him (her) right smack on the mouth. That little gem of a tip, which requires no extra risk of infection, dish washing, sanitatization, number-crunching, driving, bribery, or human sacrifice, makes a significant dent in my per-batch cost. Good times!!

The shape, or proportions I should say, are supposed to greatly influence the effectiveness of the whirlpool. Going from memory from 20 years ago on the zymurgy BBS, there were discussions on the physics of the whirlpool. A more oblate (squat- short and wide) vessel will give better cones. Friction from contact with the bottom of the kettle contributed to an upwelling in the center of the vessel. I can't remember all of the details, and it isn't immediately intuitive. Many large brewery WPs use current deflectors in the bottom-center to help slow the flow in the center and enhance the flow up the center of the vessel. Some guys report the curved bottom of keggles enhances the cone effect, but I don't know if any large breweries use curved bottom WPs. From what I remember, a curved bottom didn't help the physics, so I am a bit skeptical. Edit: some breweries use a slightly sloped (1-2 deg), but I think that may be partly to help retain the cone vs. forming it. Maybe also for cleaning purposes.