All of my beers lack Flavor!

Most of my pale beers generally come out all the same. They tend to lack character. In particular beers with an OG of less than ~1.055 usually arent very flavorfull

My water profile is:

Calc19
Mag 3
Sodium 2
Na 1
Cl 6

HC03 60

Is my water to blame? assuming my brewing technique and recipes are above par (I'm brewing beers for Jamil's brewing classic styles book)

Should I add Sodium because it's almost non existant? I read somewhere that it adds flavor/sweetness to the beer. is that true? if so what levels do you recommend? Ive been playing with Chloride:sulfate ratios but i dont seem to get great results. I made an ESB at 35:120 Cl:SO ratio. The beer has a lot of body just not very malty and kinda bland. What do you all think!

Your water MIGHT be more alkaline than you suspect. Are you checking mash pH?

Chloride is the ion that's supposed to add "roundness" to beer; since mash reactions and yeast need calcium, CaCl2 is the preferred salt to get chloride.

You can make flavorful beer with just about any water, even Seattle's. My first thought would be to ask about your mashing and fermentation temperatures. Give me 10 lbs. of pale malt, a few ounces of hops, and a few billion yeast cells and I can make both a flavorful beer or a bland one with the same ingredients. Maybe you're both mashing and fermenting at too low of a temperature?

I've been using Randy Mosher's profile for Pale Ales for APAs and IPAs, with good success.
Ca: 110
Mg: 18
Na: 17
Cl: 50
SO4:350
CaCO3: 57

Plug it into your favourite software and away you go. I treat both the mash and the sparge water.

chemicalcraig said:

You can make flavorful beer with just about any water, even Seattle's. My first thought would be to ask about your mashing and fermentation temperatures. Give me 10 lbs. of pale malt, a few ounces of hops, and a few billion yeast cells and I can make both a flavorful beer or a bland one with the same ingredients. Maybe you're both mashing and fermenting at too low of a temperature?

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I am right there with you. Seattle water is well suited to pales. Mash temps are going to play a huge role as pales leave little room to hide flaws.

Please post your recipe and mash schedule. I suspect that is where the issue is.

I am interested in the answer as I suffer from the same problem. I will review my mash temps too.

klamz said:

Most of my pale beers generally come out all the same. They tend to lack character. In particular beers with an OG of less than ~1.055 usually arent very flavorfull

My water profile is:

Calc19
Mag 3
Sodium 2
Na 1
Cl 6

HC03 60

Is my water to blame? assuming my brewing technique and recipes are above par (I'm brewing beers for Jamil's brewing classic styles book)

Should I add Sodium because it's almost non existant? I read somewhere that it adds flavor/sweetness to the beer. is that true? if so what levels do you recommend? Ive been playing with Chloride:sulfate ratios but i dont seem to get great results. I made an ESB at 35:120 Cl:SO ratio. The beer has a lot of body just not very malty and kinda bland. What do you all think!

Click to expand...

The water is part of it as you really need to add some Calcium (Ca+) with your starting ppm at only 19ppm. Forget about the Sodium, it isn't necessary. It would also be very helpful if you posted some sample recipes. I suggest you ready the sticky posts on water in the Brewing Science section here at HBT.

Have you been hitting your OG and FG?

John Palmer always stresses how important it is to bring the calcium levels to at least 50 ppm. This is essential for conversion. If I were you, to keep it simple, I would add gypsum to bring up the calcium. The Cl to SO ratios can then be tinkered with later. IMHO calcium deficiency is your problem. Even if I am wrong, bringing Ca levels up to 50-100 ppm won't adversely effect your beer.

Yes my mash ph is good around 5.4 all the time. I test with a meter.

shivalotus said:

I am right there with you. Seattle water is well suited to pales. Mash temps are going to play a huge role as pales leave little room to hide flaws.

Please post your recipe and mash schedule. I suspect that is where the issue is.

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I brewed this recipe posted here at HBT:

Its called Common Room ESB with some changes. I add more base malt for a higher OG and used London 1968 yeast and mashed lower to make up for the attenuation.


Recipe Type: All Grain
Yeast: Safale S-04
Yeast Starter: no
Batch Size (Gallons): 5.5
Original Gravity: 1.057
Final Gravity: 1.015
IBU: 35.3
Boiling Time (Minutes): 60
Color: 10.4
Primary Fermentation (# of Days & Temp): 21
Tasting Notes: Complex and malty with distinct hop flavor. A deep copper well-balanced quaffer.

Ingredients

Amount Item Type % or IBU
11.00 lb UK Pale Malt (2 Row) UK (1.4 SRM) Grain 90.91 %
0.75 lb UK Medium Crystal 50-65L (56.5 SRM) Grain 6.82 %
0.25 lb UK Dark Crystal 135-165L (150.0 SRM) Grain 2.27 %
1.50 oz Goldings, East Kent [5.50 %] (60 min) (First Wort Hop) Hops 30.4 IBU
0.25 oz Fuggles [4.00 %] (20 min) Hops 2.0 IBU
0.25 oz Goldings, East Kent [5.50 %] (20 min) Hops 2.8 IBU
0.25 oz Fuggles [4.00 %] (0 min) Hops -
0.25 oz Goldings, East Kent [5.50 %] (0 min) Hops -

London 1968 yeast with a starter



Beer Profile

Est Original Gravity: 1.058 SG
Measured Original Gravity: 1.057 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.015 SG Measured Final Gravity: 1.015 SG
Bitterness: 35.3 IBU Calories: 241 cal/pint
Est Color: 10.4 SRM Color: Color


Single Infusion, Medium Body, Batch Sparge Step Time Name Description Step Temp
60 min Mash In Add 13.75 qt of water at 173.3 F 150.0 F
10 min Mash Out Add 8.00 qt of water at 198.3 F 168.0 F
Sparge with enough water to achieve desired boil volume.

So your pH is good. Do you take OG and FG readings? Here are a couple of things I would look at... 1.) Very high efficiency that leads to a thin beer 2.) Sparge technique

On sparging, with your problems I might consider a no sparge brewing technique. There was an article about it in the last BYO. It may cost a bit more up front, but the flavor should be there if you are just capturing the first runnings. If you take the first runnings, hit your OG and FG, and still get no flavor...then the beer gods really hate you. Seriously, this approach should help. Check out the article for specifics.

OneShot1 said:

So your pH is good. Do you take OG and FG readings? Here are a couple of things I would look at... 1.) Very high efficiency that leads to a thin beer 2.) Sparge technique

On sparging, with your problems I might consider a no sparge brewing technique. There was an article about it in the last BYO. It may cost a bit more up front, but the flavor should be there if you are just capturing the first runnings. If you take the first runnings, hit your OG and FG, and still get no flavor...then the beer gods really hate you. Seriously, this approach should help. Check out the article for specifics.

Click to expand...

Yes my FG and OG readings are on target.

On a totally different note, are you confident the malt is fresh?

Enter one of them into a competition and see what the judges have to say. If the judges are good you should be able to use their feedback to improve your beer. It should at the very least help you pinpoint a few things and people here can help you adjust your process based on the comments.

Try the no-sparge brewing method mentioned in last month's BYO. I'd been fly-sparging for several years, but decided to do no-sparge (adding all water to the mash at once) and then draining the mash directly to the boil kettle. (So, say, for a 13# recipe, I added around 11 gallons to the mash, mashed for 90 mins, and then drained.) It's counter-intuitive because you mash *super* thin -- but it definitely brings out the flavor in low-grav beers. Efficiency suffers, yes -- so you either take the hit or mash with 1.3X (or thereabouts) more grain -- but it works.

The malt flavor is substantially more interesting than what you'd get for a batch or fly-sparged beer (especially for low-grav beers).

YMMV, but I'm convinced. Will only fly-sparge with high-grav beers from now on. Mid-range beers get the no-sparge.

The other advantage -- particularly if you fly-sparge -- is that you shave off an hour or so of your brewday. The thin mash also prevents any stuck mashes (I always add several hands of rice hulls, too) and seems to keep the overall mash at a stable temp. I recirc during the entire mash via my HERMS, but I noticed that the thin mash combined with the rice hulls makes it so the entire mash is at one temp (versus higher temp top, lower temp bottom for a normal 1.5 gt/lb mash.)

Again -- YMMV, but the no-sparge is probably the single-greatest leap in my brewing I've taken in the past year or so. (Prior to this, I found that adjusting pH with an actual meter versus FiveStar 5.2 or strips improved my beer considerably.) For me, pH control with a meter + no-sparge = best beers I've ever made.

EDIT: BTW, I brew with Chicago/Lake Michigan water (filtered via charcoal). I use the same water profile for all my beers (even IPAs). I experimented with different profiles, but I found that the following profile seems to balance the hops and malt -- and doesn't give overly astringent or overly "minerally" beers:

Calcium: 104
Mag: 12
Sodium: 18
Sulfate: 114
Chloride: 88
Bicarb: 125

(The profile is a modified version of Tasty's basic profile for non-IPAs. He starts with RO water, but I build this from my Lake Michigan tap water, and so far it's provided great beer -- far better than any profile calling for insane amounts of sulfate.)

I aim for mash pH at room temp of: 5.4-5.6 (usually taken 10 mins after mash-in)

With the no-sparge method above, my initial mash pH is always a bit higher (usually around 5.6-5.8 depending the grist) so I've been adding a tiny bit -- 1ml or 2ml tops -- 88% food grade phosphoric acid to bring it in the 5.4-5.6 range. I also add a couple of ounces of acidulated malt to the grain bill if there's not a lot of roast malt or only a moderate amount of caramel malt. It depends on the beer, but I've had very good luck with the Bru'n water spreadsheet for the adjustments -- and of course have been reading (and following) AJ's superb advice on water chemistry.