Lack of hoppiness

Hello all. My friends and I have now brewed 4 batches, none of which have been very good. We have all the necessary equipment including a wort chiller. We are always careful about sanitization and we make sure the temperatures are right at the given times, but things don't seem to turn out great. We recently brewed a recipe categorized as a northwest ipa, doubling the bittering hops and 1.5xing the flavor hops, but it turned out not being hoppy at all. Inputting all of the data from our batch into a brewing program, the estimation was that the batch wild be 93 IBU. Any suggestions? Thanks.

Im sort of having this same problem. I attribute it to water and am looking into building some harder water to brew with.

I'm assuming they were fresh hops, that should be a given. How long after you bought them did you store them for, and at what temp? Just curious.

can you post that last recipe you brewed just for reference. Also maybe some of your brewing practices/techniques.

How are your regular beers (pales, etc.) turning out? Or have you brewed only IPAs? 93 IBUs seems high, but may work for an IPA (hell, I don't know; I don't brew IPAs).

Other thoughts:

* Aeration -- Are you aerating prior to pitching yeast?
* Yeast Starters -- Do you use a starter on high gravity brews (1.060+)?
* Dry Hopping?

As for the hoppiness, you talking bitterness, flavor, or aroma? For bitterness, 60 minute boil should get you there. For flavor and aroma, be sure to chill as quick as you can.

What's your brewing program?

93 IBUs is pretty high even for a west coast IPA. My CA double IPA is 92 IBUs, and that is a huge beer with an OG of 1.114.

Maybe try another hop variety for your bettering hops. I was using perles for 60 min at 6oz, and was not happy with the flavor/bitterness of them. I changed to 4oz of challenger for 60 min and 2oz of Amarillo for 50 min, and was much happier with the results.

The water may be your issue as well, but if you are doing extract batches I would suggest re-evaluating the hopping schedule and variety.

Full or partial boil?

Could you post your recipe and hop schedule, also more detailed process. What exactly do you mean by lack of hoppiness; bittering, flavor, aroma, all three? Dry Hopping can dramatically increase perceived hoppiness, a lot of what you taste is actually affected by what you smell too, so dry hopping can help there. At 93 IBU's is the beer overly bitter, you may be adding to soon in the boil, I have found that late addition of hops add that killer hop flavor and aroma. Maybe try really late additions, like 5 mins, 1min and at flameout and steep the last one for about 10 mins before you chill.

Also, I notice in your post you mention bittering and flavor hops, so are you only adding 2 hop additions? If so, you might try spreading them out for flavor and aroma. I just made a West Coast Style IPA at about 75 IBU's and it was great, only 1 oz of bittering hops, it was Warrior, and then additions at 30, 20, 5, 1 and flameout then dry hopped with 2 ounces for a week or so. Smelled like watermelon jolly ranchers, according to SWMBO, due to the Citra I used.

Brewing program is ipad app iBrewmaster. Hops were used immediately after purchase. Partial boil.

Recipe is:
8 lbs light LME
8 oz British crystal malt
8 oz dextrin malt
Hops
4 oz Amarillo - 60 min
3 oz cascade - 1.5 @30 min and 1.5 @ 15 min
2 oz Wilamette - 1 min

Wyeast 1056

Thanks for replies so far

Using Hopville's Beer Calculus, I come up with 104.2 IBUs (assuming a 5 gal batch and a 60 min boil). OG is 1.063.

Pellets or leaf? Pellets should give you a somewhat higher isomerization rate then leaf. Also, the rate of hopping effects the rate of isomerization. As the hopping rate increases, the isomerization rate decreases. But I don't know that 4 oz at a time in the boil should drastically cut your isomerization rate.

You might also check the pH of your boil water. A low pH can reduce hop utilization somewhat. You want it around 5.2-5.4 post-boil ideally. I doubt your pH is causing all of your problem, but it might be a contributing factor.

With so many variables in brewing, there's a great chance that there isn't an easy answer. It's more likely a combination of several factors leading to low hop utilization. I know that isn't what you want to hear, but it's more likely than some magic bullet that will fix it.

The only way to really get a handle on it is to post every step of your brewing process in excruciating detail.

There's also some good info in this podcast. The applicable section is about 1/4 of the way through.

104 IBUs should be blowing the top of your head off.

Partial boil could be part of the issue, how big of a boil? How much top off? Also what was your LME addition schedule like?

I had issues with hop utilization before I started adding most of my extract at flameout, try to only boil 1/3 of your extract for 60 min next time while keeping the same hop schedule and add the final 2/3rds at flameout

This should help your issue

Moving to a full boil (or adding most - but not all - of your extract late) will help improve the perception of bitterness and hoppiness. Another thing to look at is your water - it may not be suitable for brewing hop-forward beers. Use a store-bought distilled or reverse osmosis water next time and add a bit of gypsum (maybe 150 ppm), and see how it turns out.

There is a reason why IPSs are classifies as intermediate when it comes to brewing. One thing you must do is fix your water to get as much out of the hops as you can. 5.2 buffer is the default way but it's really only a stop gap.

Full boils and long boils are a must. Look at dog fish heads 90 and 120 minute brew as an example.

Grinder12000 said:

There is a reason why IPSs are classifies as intermediate when it comes to brewing. One thing you must do is fix your water to get as much out of the hops as you can. 5.2 buffer is the default way but it's really only a stop gap.

Full boils and long boils are a must. Look at dog fish heads 90 and 120 minute brew as an example.

Click to expand...

5.2 is a pH stabilizer for mashing and sparge water - it doesn't do anything to hop utilization except that it includes lots of sodium, which is a flavor enhancer, but not necessarily one that is beneficial in brewing. For extract brewers, 5.2 is not recommended because they do not need to keep any enzymes happy. Gypsum is much better for making hops "pop", but when overdone, it can introduce a harsh character to the beer.

Yup, make sure your boil is really going. Don't just bring the water to 100C, get it rolling. You might want to try dry hopping too, if you want to boost the hoppyness of your brews. Throw an ounce into a nylon bag and let it sit in your fermenter during primary. It's worked nicely for me in the past.

Doomsday said:

I'm assuming they were fresh hops, that should be a given. How long after you bought them did you store them for, and at what temp? Just curious.

can you post that last recipe you brewed just for reference. Also maybe some of your brewing practices/techniques.

Click to expand...

I'm reading into things..but why did you assume that and why should it be a given? Are you supposed to use MORE fresh hops then you would with pellet?

I use mostly fresh hops, and have noticed they don't seem to bitter quite as well as the pellet hops..but are better for flavor and aroma. But maybe that's just my perception? Thanks in advance.

fartsthatarewet said:

Brewing program is ipad app iBrewmaster. Hops were used immediately after purchase. Partial boil.

Recipe is:
8 lbs light LME
8 oz British crystal malt
8 oz dextrin malt
Hops
4 oz Amarillo - 60 min
3 oz cascade - 1.5 @30 min and 1.5 @ 15 min
2 oz Wilamette - 1 min

Wyeast 1056

Thanks for replies so far

Click to expand...

Remember that even with 4 ounces of amarillo at 60 (a LOT of expensive hops!) if your IBUs are 93, and you're adding 50% water when it's done, you just cut your IBUs in half!

A couple of easy fixes to try first.

One, use bottled spring water or reverse osmosis water to make sure it's not your tap water.

Two, boil as much liquid as you possibly can in your boil.

Three, add the vast majority of the LME at the end of the boil. Even at the very end of the boil. That will keep the LME from forming a carmelly flavor. So, use 2 pounds of LME at the beginning, add your hops according to the schedule, and then add the LME just when turning off the flame.

Next, cool the wort quickly in an ice bath, to under 70 degrees, and then add to your fermenter with the cool top off water.

Don't bag your hops, if you happen to be doing that. Just strain them out when you move to the fermenter.

Try those things, with the same recipe, and see if it makes a difference. Then we'll be able to nail down where the problem is.

jbaysurfer said:

I'm reading into things..but why did you assume that and why should it be a given? Are you supposed to use MORE fresh hops then you would with pellet?

I use mostly fresh hops, and have noticed they don't seem to bitter quite as well as the pellet hops..but are better for flavor and aroma. But maybe that's just my perception? Thanks in advance.

Click to expand...

No, I think he's saying that he's assuming the hops are not old hops. Leaf hops vs. pellet hops aren't really a factor, but age and storage conditions are.

Fresh hops == undried hops available only in the Fall.
Leaf hops == intact, dried cones
Pellets == compressed dried cones
New hops == from the last harvest.
Old hops == cheese

Move up to full boil since you have a wort chiller.

make a step-up starter about a week before and step-up the yeast making it a big starter.

Leave in primary for at least two weeks and then dry-hop.

bottle for two wks (minnimum) and drink soon after.


should help.

I noticed by the recipe the OP posted that he does not have any dry hop additions. Dry hopping is a key part in pale ales and IPAs, and gives the beer that unique profile that's hard to get without a dry hop addition. While dry hopping doesn't really add much to actual IBUs, it could be the lacking "bitterness" essence you are used to in commercial beers.

For a recipe like that dry hopping with 3 oz cascade might add a little bitterness (perceived through aroma) and more complexity to the beer.

Some of the English style IPA recipes don't call for dry hopping, but nearly every American and defiantly west coast IPAs should really be dry hopped.

Yooper said:

No, I think he's saying that he's assuming the hops are not old hops. Leaf hops vs. pellet hops aren't really a factor, but age and storage conditions are.

Click to expand...

OK, gotcha. Thanks Yooper.

Wow a lot of suggestions. Much thanks they are appreciated. Perhaps the LME addition late that keeps coming up could help. As for the partial boil, it was 3 gal. We have been using tap water and putting the hops in bags as well. The yeast starter is something we also have not done. I a learning a lot here thanks guys.

Oh also we used leaf hops.

And the dry hops? Are you doing any dry hop additions?

No we didn't but have considered it, although it seems Ike that would not be the reason for a complete lack of hoppiness

Much of the character derived from pales land IPAs comes from that unique quality found in dry hopping. Especially west coast style IPAs should have a huge floral, citrus, and earthy nose on them.

You can add all the hops to the boil you want, but without that dry hop addition you'll find that slap you in the face cut grass and initial hippiness is not there.