First Brew (AHS Surly Furious Clone)...and some general questions

What's up, guys? A little over two weeks ago, I decided to take the plunge into home brewing. I love beer, so why not? Also, I make a pretty kick ass batch of Kool Aid, so I figured I could do a pretty decent beer. I was torn between AHS Surly Furious and Midwest Ferocious. I ended up going with AHS, mostly because they ship extremely fast and the price was right. Anyway, got a few questions (hoping that AHS might chime in here) - The AHS kit does not require dry hopping, but the Midwest one does. I'm going to do it anyway, with 2 oz Simcoe and 1 oz Amarillo. I was just wondering if anyone knew why AHS doesn't say to dry hop?

Also, I never reached a rolling boil when brewing. This is attributed to the fact that my stove is pretty much an Easy Bake and now I have an excuse to get a propane burner. This is probably not a problem, right? It was boiling, just not rolling. I'm pretty sure I never got a hot break, and it was boiling for well over 90 minutes, which I read will cause....caramelization. Would this cause any ill effects for an IPA? I certainly hope not. I'm gonna drink it anyway, but it appears I may have to try this kit again.

Another question, I now know what Whirloc is, and that you're supposed to put it in during the boil, but can I put it in the wort at any other time? Like when I transfer to secondary? On a side note, I was all into secondaries before I found this place. Since I've been reading a bunch, it seems I may have jumped the gun because I have two 6.5 gallon carboys and two 5 gallon carboys. Whoops, guess I can always do 4 batches at once! :rockin:

Welcome to the obsession, er, hobby!

You do need a nice rolling boil for good hops isomerization, and it's true that boiling extract for a long time will create excess maillard reactions- so it's possible that the finished beer will be a bit sweeter and less bitter than intended. It'll still be good, though!

Some stove top brewers compensate for the lowered power by boiling a bit less wort at the beginning, as well as adding the bulk of the extract at the end of the boil, and that can stop those issues.

Whirlfloc is a kettle fining- it only works in the boil- so there is no point or need to add it to the fermenter. There are other clearing agents that can be used, but your beer should clear up just fine without them. I often don't use any clearing agents at all, and my beer is clear enough to read a newspaper through. The surly clone is fairly dark for an IPA, so you may notice any haze anyway!

Man, you guys are fast! Thanks, Yooper! I'm transferring to secondary this weekend. That'll make three weeks in primary and then probably 2-3 weeks in secondary. Does that sound good or no? I'll be throwing in the hops during the last week or so of secondary.

Hard to follow when Yooper posts first, so I'll only add a couple of things

I started doing batches in my apartment on my POS electric stove. I found that I had to leave the lid on, but with plenty of space open to allow boil off and DMS to escape. That gave me a decent rolling boil. I didn't seem to have many or at least vigorous hot breaks either, and I was doing full boils in my 8 gallons pot, which put it to the brim.

After my first batch, I started doing the late additions, it it was easier to me, and one less thing to worry about (Burning the extract).

And I'll second Yooper on just letting it sit to clear, most of the time, time is just as good as putting something in it. And unless you are wanting to submit it to a competition, or perhaps extremely OCD about your beer clarity, it won't affect anything anyway.

DasHos said:

Man, you guys are fast! Thanks, Yooper! I'm transferring to secondary this weekend. That'll make three weeks in primary and then probably 2-3 weeks in secondary. Does that sound good or no? I'll be throwing in the hops during the last week or so of secondary.

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Given that you have so many other container options, is there a particular reason you want to move it?

It certainly is not necessary. In fact, if you go ahead and dry hop in the primary this weekend, you should be able to bottle the next. Assuming you're at FG and all that good stuff

Oh yeah, I forgot, I'm glad you said that it was pretty dark for an IPA, because mine is extremely dark! I thought it was because I only boiled 3.5 gallons and added all the DME and LME at the beginning. I'm going to try full volume boil next, and adding the extract towards the end of the boil.

Remember too, even when you do lighter beers, that the larger volume of liquid will make it look a lot darker than what the final product will actually be in a glass. So don't let that scare you. But adding the extract near the end, does help in preventing it from scorching, just in case you leave the burner on.

twistr25 said:

Given that you have so many other container options, is there a particular reason you want to move it?

It certainly is not necessary. In fact, if you go ahead and dry hop in the primary this weekend, you should be able to bottle the next. Assuming you're at FG and all that good stuff

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Yeah except I totally forgot to take a hydrometer reading before pitching the yeast. I'm going to be using pellets to dry hop. Will they eventually sink to the bottom? I've also got a spare fridge that I'm going to use for some lagers, but I was also thinking of doing a cold crash with this one. (I didn't even know what a cold crash was two days ago. I love this site!)

DasHos said:

Oh yeah, I forgot, I'm glad you said that it was pretty dark for an IPA, because mine is extremely dark! I thought it was because I only boiled 3.5 gallons and added all the DME and LME at the beginning. I'm going to try full volume boil next, and adding the extract towards the end of the boil.

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Yes, adding the DME and LME upfront and boiling on 3.5 gallons (plus using extract in the first place) will mean a darker colored beer. Surly is pretty dark anyway, so you may not be all that far off colorwise anyway (and besides, if it tastes great, who cares?!?)

DasHos said:

Yeah except I totally forgot to take a hydrometer reading before pitching the yeast. I'm going to be using pellets to dry hop. Will they eventually sink to the bottom? I've also got a spare fridge that I'm going to use for some lagers, but I was also thinking of doing a cold crash with this one. (I didn't even know what a cold crash was two days ago. I love this site!)

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Assuming you topped up to the correct volume, your OG is whatever the kit says it will be so don't worry about that.

Pellet hops don't all sink. They do disintegrate, and some will float and some will sink. I like to dryhop for 5-7 days before packaging, and rack carefully to avoid sucking them up. Some people use sanitized paint strainer bags over their racking cane to sort of filter out the chunks. I tried that, and it clogged up for me, but many people have good results with that. You just have to be careful not to aerate or otherwise oxidize the beer.

And I think three weeks primary plus a couple weeks in the secondary is WAY overkill! Hoppy beers are best fresh. I'd leave it sit until it's done fermenting, and pretty clear. Then dryhop for 5-7 days and package it.

That's one of the nice things about extracts, assuming you got the majority of the extract out, the OG should be pretty dang close to what the kit was. You can take a reading while in primary as well. Do you have a wine thief or other apparatus to draw a sample? Some of the pellets will drop to the bottom and will become part of the trub, or you can add them into a sanitized muslin bag and place it in.

Cold crashing is fine if you want, but also not necessary. It helps to knock most of the rest of the sediment from suspension, but when dry hopping, may have an effect on the aroma. But it's up to you. When you bottle and let it sit over 3 weeks, it will form another trub layer of anything left over, and then you effectively cold crash the bottles when you fridge them and that will knock out anything else.

No wine thief....yet. So, would it be advisable then to just throw the hops in this weekend (in the primary) and then go ahead and bottle it the next weekend? Man, there's so much to learn! Also, I'm not sure if 3 oz of hops would fit in the opening of a carboy (in a muslin bag). I'm probably wrong, though.

That's my suggestion, assuming you are at final gravity. I would take a reading tomorrow, and then again on Saturday. If you're stable, dry hop it and then next weekend you should be good to bottle.

Granted it was whole leaf, but I dryhopped loose in a carboy once, will not do it again, for me anyway. Used pellet hops in a primary bucket, no problems.

Well, I'll give it a go, then. I'm heading up to my LHBS this weekend to pick up the hops, hopefully they have a wine thief. How else would I snatch some of the wort? I think I may have a turkey baster that could probably work. Hmmmm.....

Sure will!

DasHos said:

.... - The AHS kit does not require dry hopping, but the Midwest one does. I'm going to do it anyway, with 2 oz Simcoe and 1 oz Amarillo. I was just wondering if anyone knew why AHS doesn't say to dry hop?

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Can't say for sure but I speculate the reason is it fits their impression of Surly Furious as their recipe is laid out.

FWIW, I brewed the Northern Brewer Surly Furious kit (which the clerk was quick to point out it is not a clone, formulated in cahoots with Surly, and able to bear the name straight up) used something like 13.5 or 14.5oz hops in a 5gal batch, with (from memory) 8 or 8.5oz of that being for the dry hopping phase.

whoaru99 said:

Can't say for sure but I speculate the reason is it fits their impression of Surly Furious as their recipe is laid out.

FWIW, I brewed the Northern Brewer Surly Furious kit (which the clerk was quick to point out it is not a clone, formulated in cahoots with Surly, and able to bear the name straight up) used something like 13.5 or 14.5oz hops in a 5gal batch, with (from memory) 8 or 8.5oz of that being for the dry hopping phase.

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WOW!! That's pretty much double what I'm going to use!

Well, I'm going to bottle this weekend. I'm pretty pumped. My LHBS didn't have Amarillo, so I went with 3 oz Simcoe and 2 oz Citra. Still doesn't equate to the amount of hops Surly uses, but oh well. I'm just excited that I'm about to bottle my first brew! Picked up a propane burner for the next round. I'm also gonna try adding the majority of my extracts at flame out and I want to try a full volume boil.

Sounds like a plan! I've loved the beers I've dryhopped with citra. Might be doing an all citra IPA coming up soon.

Sorry...suppose I should have posted this sooner.

The dry hop blend for the 5-gal NB Surly Furious extract kit is -
5oz Simcoe
2.5oz Ahtanum
0.5oz Warrior
0.5oz Amarillo

So bottling was almost a complete disaster! My bottling kung fu was not as strong as I'd hoped. Unfortunately, I'd found Revvy's bottling thread way too late. I've learned an immeasurable amount from this brew, and can only improve from here. I'm already correcting my mistakes. The ones I know for a fact I made, anyway. Ugh. Still, ended up with 41 bottles. Forgot to do a gravity reading again, too. Man! I've got to get in the habit of that. I'm already looking for my next brew. It's gonna be another kit from AHS, too. Probably gonna be that way until I know pretty well what I'm doing. Well, in three weeks, I'll move those bottles to my spare fridge for a few weeks and then have a taste. I did taste it after I bottled, and WOW! I got punched in the mouth with hops. It was great!

So....I've got bottle bombs. Three went off last night and scared the crap outta my wife. Then another went off after I'd gotten home from work. Man, those suckers are LOUD! They've been conditioning for about 16 or 17 days, so I threw the rest in my spare fridge to calm the yeast down.

I put one of the beers in the fridge at about 13 days because...well I'm curious and wanted to know if it tasted good. It was kinda...I dunno, I wanna say sour, but not really. It definitely tasted like..."almost" beer. It was tart. Really puckered my lips. Oh, and it was very carbonated. Not gusher like, but it was almost like drinking a soda. It had a great head when I poured it in the glass, and it was definitely carbed all the way through.

Are the rest of these beers gonna turn into bottle bombs after a few weeks in the fridge? Will they finish conditioning eventually? Is this one of those instances where I should just relax and wait it out?

The tartness could be carbonic bite from the overcarbing OR it could be an infection. If that is spread throughout the bottles, there is a chance they all could blow. May also have been an issue when you primed and it wasn't evenly distributed.

I'd leave them in the fridge for a few days then try another one and see how carbed it is. Then try another a few days later. If it has calmed down with decent carb, you may end up ok.

Well, I certainly hope it's not an infection. Another sad not, both of my 5 gallon carboys have big @$$ cracks on the bottom. They still hold liquid, but I'd rather not take any chances so I tossed them into the recycling bin and ordered some buckets from Northern Brewer. Screw carboys, man. I'm going with buckets all the way. Although, I do still have both of my 6.5's in great condition so I'll probably just keep those for Apfelwein. Next up on the brew list, Hop Bomb 2.0 from AHS. Anybody tried this kit? I'm excited for the entire POUND of hops.

Well, I've had a few more, and the taste is still there. I no longer think it is an infection, though. I think it's the infamous "twang". I boiled the LME for not only the entire 60 minutes, but even longer because I could never achieve that full, rolling boil. Plus, it wasn't a full volume boil, either.

I fully believe, 100% that this tart, twangy taste is "user error". Also, I waaay overcarbed. According to the priming calculator on TastyBrew, I should have only used 3 oz by weight for the style, and I used the entire 5 oz package. Another lesson learned.

For the next go, I'm going to do:

1) Full volume boil. I have an 8 gallon pot and have since gotten a propane burner to reach the rolling boil.

2) Flame out additions. I will use maybe a pound of DME and save the LME additions for the very end of the boil.

3) Water. Upon scouring these forums, I've decided that I am going to use at least 3 gallons of distilled water, and 2 gallons of spring or drinking water. None from my tap. This shouldn't be a problem, since all the minerals are already in the extract.

4) Hops. I'm going to actually use the damn hop bag for all the additions and I'm going to use a bag to dry hop as well. I tried the whole "strainer" thing on the end of the autosiphon and all it did was piss me off.

5) Revvy's bottling method. This is a no brainer.

I've learned so much from this brew. I can't wait until I get to the level of some of you pros out there.

DasHos said:

Well, I've had a few more, and the taste is still there. I no longer think it is an infection, though. I think it's the infamous "twang". I boiled the LME for not only the entire 60 minutes, but even longer because I could never achieve that full, rolling boil. Plus, it wasn't a full volume boil, either.

I fully believe, 100% that this tart, twangy taste is "user error". Also, I waaay overcarbed. According to the priming calculator on TastyBrew, I should have only used 3 oz by weight for the style, and I used the entire 5 oz package. Another lesson learned.

For the next go, I'm going to do:

1) Full volume boil. I have an 8 gallon pot and have since gotten a propane burner to reach the rolling boil.

2) Flame out additions. I will use maybe a pound of DME and save the LME additions for the very end of the boil.

3) Water. Upon scouring these forums, I've decided that I am going to use at least 3 gallons of distilled water, and 2 gallons of spring or drinking water. None from my tap. This shouldn't be a problem, since all the minerals are already in the extract.

4) Hops. I'm going to actually use the damn hop bag for all the additions and I'm going to use a bag to dry hop as well. I tried the whole "strainer" thing on the end of the autosiphon and all it did was piss me off.

5) Revvy's bottling method. This is a no brainer.

I've learned so much from this brew. I can't wait until I get to the level of some of you pros out there.

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Sounds like a good plan. I can help give a couple of more points, if that's ok.

1. Full volume boil is good! Just make sure you have a way to chill it, because it takes a lot longer to chill 5+ gallons of wort in the sink than a smaller volume!

2. If you're boiling the entire batch, it's not as crucial but you would probably want to use about a pound (more or less) of extract per gallon of liquid boiled. So, if you're boiling 6 gallons to start, as much as 6 pounds of extract would be fine in the boil.

3. Instead of distilled and spring water, why not try 100% RO water? In our area, they have it cheap from those "water machines" at the grocery store or in Wal-mart and it'd be perfect.

4. A bag is fine. Just make sure you use a big bag, or more than one if needed, so that the hops can still move freely and not be bound up by the bag.

5. Good!

DasHos said:

I fully believe, 100% that this tart, twangy taste is "user error". Also, I waaay overcarbed. According to the priming calculator on TastyBrew, I should have only used 3 oz by weight for the style, and I used the entire 5 oz package. Another lesson learned.

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If you don't like the carb level, that's fine, but 5oz of priming shouldn't have caused bottle bombs. My last batch I got 50 bottles and had used a touch over 7oz sugar. That should work out to a higher CO2 volume than you had with 5oz in 41 bottles. I've had no bottle bombs.

Yooper said:

Sounds like a good plan. I can help give a couple of more points, if that's ok.

1. Full volume boil is good! Just make sure you have a way to chill it, because it takes a lot longer to chill 5+ gallons of wort in the sink than a smaller volume!

2. If you're boiling the entire batch, it's not as crucial but you would probably want to use about a pound (more or less) of extract per gallon of liquid boiled. So, if you're boiling 6 gallons to start, as much as 6 pounds of extract would be fine in the boil.

3. Instead of distilled and spring water, why not try 100% RO water? In our area, they have it cheap from those "water machines" at the grocery store or in Wal-mart and it'd be perfect.

4. A bag is fine. Just make sure you use a big bag, or more than one if needed, so that the hops can still move freely and not be bound up by the bag.

5. Good!

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I have an immersion wort chiller, so I think that'd be fine. Do you mean using a pound of DME or LME per gallon being boiled? Or does it not matter? I admit, I have not checked out the 100% RO water, but I definitely will, especially if it's cheaper.

EDIT: I've also seen your igloo cooler for controlling fermentation temps, I'm totally gonna steal that idea from you. Thanks!

whoaru99 said:

If you don't like the carb level, that's fine, but 5oz of priming shouldn't have caused bottle bombs. My last batch I got 50 bottles and had used a touch over 7oz sugar. That should work out to a higher CO2 volume than you had with 5oz in 41 bottles. I've had no bottle bombs.

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Hmmmmm, well now I don't know what to think. I wonder if the fermentation got stuck. I forgot to take any hydrometer readings throughout the whole process, so I really don't know 100% if fermentation was complete. That could be a reason for the bombs, right?

Certainly could be, if there were extra sugars left over in addition to the priming that you added.

Well that sucks. I think I've nailed down that taste, too. It's like one of those Granny Smith apples. Will these finish conditioning in the fridge or will they taste like apples from now on? I don't really wanna take any of them out for fear of them exploding.

If they stay in the fridge they wont condition any further. I'd just drink them how they are now if you can stand to and chalk this batch up to a learning experience.
Try to take detailed notes on everything you do with your brew sessions so you'll know what is and isn't working for you for future brews.

Here's a good chart of off flavors in beer and how to avoid them.

Off Flavor Chart

Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see how you treated your yeast before pitching (dry or wet? starter or no starter?) and anything about fermentation temps (room temp or temp controlled?). Those two things may lead to some off flavors.

Depending on what is causing the tart apple flavor, it might condition out with enough time in the fridge. However, the longer you let it sit, the more the hop flavor/aroma is going to dissipate. Since you've already had several bottle bombs, I'd just get them all in the fridge asap if you can fit them. Let them sit for a week or so and then crack one - it might help settle some of the overcarbonation a bit at least.

I just wanna say how awesome everyone is here. Such a friendly and helpful lot! I'm drinking another right now (yes it IS 9 am but I'm working the night shift so it's basically my bedtime anyway). Either I'm getting used to it, or the tart flavor isn't in this one.

BGBC, it was Wyeast, can't really remember which one, but no starter. All I did was smack the pack about 5 hours before pitching. Temp control was nonexistent. I just stuck the carboy in my closet.

mbar, this is most definitely a learning experience. I am definitely trying to drink them as fast as I can, too. They're not undrinkable, which is good. Besides, I need the bottles for my next brew. I can see how noobs could get discouraged, but there's no way I'm throwing in the towel. There's just too many great brews to drink!

Also, BGBC, that chart is very informative. Thank you very much for that.