Question about FWH for a long boil.

I really like first wort hopping - it seems to me to provide a smoother bitterness. I also like strong beers, so I need to do a long boil.

So my question is, if I FWH while sparging, but I don't want to isomerize beta acids, can I just remove the FWH hops after an hour and keep boiling? Are the beta acids already in the wort then, so they'll still isomerize? Is there a way to do FWH with a 2 hour boil?

Thanks in advance!

I've done long boils after FWH and haven't noticed any adverse effects. I believe that the chemical changes that happen during FWH make it a non issue.

Cromwell, did you ever try FWH in a long boil? If so, how long? Were you satisfied with the results?

Dave, I haven't done a two-hour boil with FWH yet. I have done 90 minutes, and I didn't get anything bad from it, but I do think you get increased bitterness. I'm not a bitterness expert, so it's strictly my subjective impression. FWH increases bitterness anyway, and I haven't done a side-by-side comparison of a 60 minute boil and a 120 minute boil with FWH. I'm not exactly sure even how to do such a comparison since you're changing multiple variables.

I'd just leave them in there. I don't really think there would be any adverse affects but I don't really do a lot of FWA. I say give it a go, seems like more work to take them out.

There is virtually no increase in hop utilization between 60 and 90 min. and even less beyond 90 min.

So Denny, how long do hops need to sit in 170 degree wort for all (or most) of the chemical changes to happen? I know some people do it while fly sparging, which might give them an hour or more, but what if you batch sparge? You might only have 10-15 minutes in warm wort. Do you (or anyone else) know if we need to leave the wort alone for some time, even if we're done sparging?

I've done FWH hundreds of times and it's almost always been for 15-25 min. That seems to be lenty of time for it to work.

Thanks for the advice guys, I have been trying to gather as much info about FWH before I bite the bullet and make an attempt. I have heard very few negative effects so I am starting to feel better about it.

Ya know, it's only beer...try things for yourself and you'll learn a lot!

Denny said:

I've done FWH hundreds of times and it's almost always been for 15-25 min. That seems to be lenty of time for it to work.

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I batch sparge and do two 20 min sparges and I would imagine that the total sparge time heating water, vourlofing, draining, etc total time of 60 min. I have not noticed any adverse effects. Also I have used during a 90 min boil with no adverse effects.

This is subjective of course.

JLW said:

I batch sparge and do two 20 min sparges and I would imagine that the total sparge time heating water, vourlofing, draining, etc total time of 60 min. I have not noticed any adverse effects. Also I have used during a 90 min boil with no adverse effects.

This is subjective of course.

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Wow, that's a long time for batch sparging. For about 8 gal. of wort in the kettle, it takes me a total of 15 min. from the time I start the mash runoff til the time I finish the sparge runoff.

Denny said:

Wow, that's a long time for batch sparging. For about 8 gal. of wort in the kettle, it takes me a total of 15 min. from the time I start the mash runoff til the time I finish the sparge runoff.

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I've been experimenting with longer batch sparges to get higher efficiency. With two ten min sparges I was around the 70% range and with the extended sparges I am 80% range. I also started stirring during the longer sparge and haven't isolated the stirring part.

That says to me that you aren't getting full conversion during the mash. There's no other reason letting it sit during the sparge would matter. I've tried times between 30 min. and immediate runoff and I haven't seen a difference. FWIW, I get 83-85% with an immediate runoff. According to Kai's chart I'm getting 99-100% conversion efficiency. You might want to re examine your process and see if you can save some time.

I did a single batch sparge today, and got 84% efficiency. It took about 10 minutes total, from the moment I added the water until the time all of the wort was in the boil kettle. I FWH the first runnings, and they sat in there during this time, plus the time the kettle was coming up to a boil.

The beauty of batch sparging is twofold- 1. time savings! 2. pH worries.

The sparge pH is much more important in fly sparging, as the risk of tannin extraction rises as the gravity drops and the pH rises. In batch sparging, this isn't nearly as much as a concern. But the biggest advantage is the huge time savings!

And the older I get, the more time I want to save!