pH Affecting Hop Flavor?

I've had real issues with brewing hoppier beers. No matter what techniques or how many hops I've tried, I still don't get much if sometimes any hop flavor. I looked into my areas water profile, and my water is around 7.8 pH, which I realize is high. Is it worth my time to try and change it? Is it affecting my hops at all? What can I do?

SONICYOUTH said:

I've had real issues with brewing hoppier beers. No matter what techniques or how many hops I've tried, I still don't get much if sometimes any hop flavor. I looked into my areas water profile, and my water is around 7.8 pH, which I realize is high. Is it worth my time to try and change it? Is it affecting my hops at all? What can I do?

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I think I'm having the same problem as you. Regardless of the types of hops I'm using, or how much, etc., all my beers have the same (lack of) hop aroma and same (lack of) hop flavor.

Are you experiencing astringent/tannin/metallic flavors with these beers? When you burp, does it taste like metal?

I don't have an answer to your question, but these are the problems I'm having and I'm wondering if you share the same issues.

Sonic Youth rocks the shyt

Yeah, that is the exact kind of flavor I'm getting.

It's probably not mash pH, at least not directly. I've noticed that water chemistry has a huge impact on the flavor of a beer, particularly "smooth" or "harsh" hop flavors.

Have you done a water profile, or have any idea what your alkalinity is?

SONICYOUTH said:

Yeah, that is the exact kind of flavor I'm getting.

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Sounds like we're in this together.
I'll tell you a little bit about my setup, and what I was doing, and what Yooper has since suggested I try.

Before:
I do 1 gallon all grain BIAB. I use a 3 gallon kettle and add my full volume of (Poland Spring water) to the kettle (accounting for boil off/grain absorbtion/etc). I add all of my grains and mash for 1 hour. After 1 hour, I stir my grains constantly until I achieve 170. I then cover my kettle and let it sit (with the heat off) for 10 minutes. After 10 minutes, I pull the bag out, squeeze out all of the wort from the grain, and then start my boil.

After
After having the same flavor on ALL of my beers (mostly in my IPA's, but definitely noticeable in all of my beers), Yooper advised that it's most likely my water, or the fact that I'm using such a small amount of grain (approx 2-2.5 lbs in about 2 gallons or so of water). She recommended that I move to either RO or distilled water, and add some calcium chloride to the total volume of water that I plan to use. Further, she recommended that I pull out some of my water and put it in another (smaller) kettle. This would allow for my mash to be a little thicker (less water per that amount of grain). After going through my normal process as outlined above, I then pull the grain bag out, squeeze, and then dunk it in the other kettle, which I heated to 165 (down from 170 in my prior process). I dunk and rinse the grains in this water, trying to extract all of the remaining sugars. Then, I simply dump that water into my brew kettle and start the boil.

This update to my process has hopefully eliminated the pH issues I've been having, however, the beers I've tried this with are still about 2 weeks away from being tasted/tested, as they're still conditioning.

I'm curious to hear your process, as it sounds like we have the same issues...I'm just assuming yours are on a a larger scale since I only do 1-gallon batches.

I've done a water profile, but the only thing I have difficulty locating from the report is the Bicarbonate. I don't know what it would be under.

SONICYOUTH said:

I've done a water profile, but the only thing I have difficulty locating from the report is the Bicarbonate. I don't know what it would be under.

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HCO3 would be one, CaCO3 would be another place to look.

Water pH has very little to do with hops extraction. Kettle pH does. Kettle pH should be between say 5.1 and 5.4 to on the one hand make it easy for yeast to pull the wort pH down to a level they are happy with (lower is better in this regard) and, on the other hand, be at a high enough level the hops alpha acids are isomerised (higher is better). 5.1 - 5.4 represents a compromise.

Mash pH should be in the range 5.4 - 5.6 as this is required for the mashing enzymes to do their jobs and for the beer to develop all the flavors you want. Above this range beer flavors are dull and uninteresting. Go below this range, I am told, and the beer becomes stridently flavored. This has never happened to me so I have no first hand experience with it. If mash pH is correct kettle pH usually falls in the right range. Again, water pH has little to do with this. Alkalinity does and that's the parameter to look for.

Sulfate content has a lot to do with the way hops flavors are perceived. Arlington water carries sulfate at about 30 - 35 ppm. That's too much for the German beers that use noble hops but way lower than what most people who do mostly ales seem to like. Others say that high sulfate levels render any hops bitterness harsh and should be avoided.

I would say stay with the low sulfate (i.e. what's in the water for now) and simply use more hops. Stay away from high alpha hops, add them late and cool the wort as quickly as you can. This insures more oils (responsible for hops flavor and aroma) per unit of beer bitterness and prevents the oils, which are quite volatile, from flying off.

Run over to Mad Fox and taste some of Bill's highly hopped beers. This is what can be done with the local water.

Bicarbonate is calculated from alkalinity by dividing the alkalinity by 50 and multiplying the answer by 61. In your area alkalinity runs around 80 so bicarbonate is 61*80/50 ~ 96.

I'm actually clapping at my computer for how awesome that response was. Thank you.

Sorry for resurrecting an old thread, but I use a method very similar to JeffoC6's, and I'm essentially having the same problem. Have either of you been able to solve it since you last posted?

Thanks!

I've been having problems with lack of hops aroma since I moved to my new house. I'm getting ready to ship a sample off to Ward Labs for testing, but it sounds like a similar issue. Hops flavor is good, and there's no metallic aspect, but the aroma is non-existent no matter how much hops I use as late additions, hop stands, or dry hopping. I just added some hop tea to a Rye IPA I tapped today, hopefully that will help this batch.

When you are following all the brewing rules and you still can't get the results you would like out of your beers, sending a sample of your water for testing is a wise choice. There can easily be characteristics of your water supply that are adversely affecting the beer quality. Knowing what is in your water is the first step, learning what you should do about it is the next, doing it is final hurdle.

SONICYOUTH said:

I'm actually clapping at my computer for how awesome that response was. Thank you.

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Use the like button. It's a cyber "atta-boy". I can only speak for myself, but I love getting them.