Who's got some dubbel experience?

As soon as I get my thermapen, I am going to brew my magnum opus. I am really having the hardest time formulating the recipe, however.

I really love Chimay Red. I want this beer to taste like it, but recipes for dubbels really vary a lot. I've researched this pretty thoroughly in Brew Like a Monk, and I've looked at a lot of different dubbel recipes and compared them.

Chimay Red is a malty beer, but it's incredibly smooth. I want to duplicate the taste, so I don't want it to be too malty. I don't really like strong dark ales and I want to keep this beer firmly in the realm of a dubbel, without what in my opinion is a cloying maltiness that is present in strong darks.

So, basically I have decided on 7 lbs pilsner malt, 1 lb wheat, 1 lb sugar. I'm fine with that, but I can't decide on how to achieve my desired level of maltiness.

I was thinking .5 lbs caramunich and .5 lbs special B. Would that be enough? Or should I add something else, like let's say .5 lbs aromatic and/or .5-1.0 lbs munich? I don't have any experience using aromatic and it kind of makes me nervous, but it seems very appropriate for this recipe. If I were to add all of these, it would basically be Jamil's recipe. Has anyone brewed that? How would it compare to Chimay Red? It seems like it might be a bit too malty for my taste.

The reason I am having so much trouble is that this is not very familiar territory, but also because a lot of "Chimay Red Clone" recipes I have looked at seem pretty off. If I were a betting man, I'd wager they're way too malty. A lot of them don't match up with what Hieronymus says is in Chimay Red at all. I don't want a less alcoholic strong dark.

Thanks for any advice. I should probably just resign myself to the fact that my first dubbel probably won't be exactly what I want, but because this beer takes so long to mature, I'd really like to end up with something that I really like.

You need to get some Belgian Dark Candi Syrup. 3/4 lb of it. No table sugar, mash low for 90 min, 149. The special B and caramunich are good.

Jamils recipe is good, but it's a little too light IMO. I leave out the table sugar, and it's perfect. Not cloying at all. You do have to make sure you mash low and long. I love WY3787, it's not the Chimay strain, but it will attenuate like no one's business.

rexbanner said:

Thanks for any advice. I should probably just resign myself to the fact that my first dubbel probably won't be exactly what I want, but because this beer takes so long to mature, I'd really like to end up with something that I really like.

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My dubbel was six weeks old and won a silver at the state fair, scored a 38. I find that as long as your fermentation is good, beers are ready to drink a lot sooner than most say around these web forums.

smizak said:

You need to get some Belgian Dark Candi Syrup. 3/4 lb of it. No table sugar, mash low for 90 min, 149. The special B and caramunich are good.

Jamils recipe is good, but it's a little too light IMO. I leave out the table sugar, and it's perfect. Not cloying at all. You do have to make sure you mash low and long. I love WY3787, it's not the Chimay strain, but it will attenuate like no one's business.

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I don't understand how its possible to hit the targeted SRM of 10-14 that beersmith gives using so many SRM-contributing ingredients. I am at 15 with just a half pound of special B and caramunich, and if I used dark candi it would push it way high. I don't care that much, but I'd like to understand how this works. Unless beersmith is wrong, then most dubbel recipes out there end up way too dark.

Also, how does leaving out sugar make something lighter? Also, I'm pretty sure Chimay uses table sugar.

rexbanner said:

I don't understand how its possible to hit the targeted SRM of 10-14 that beersmith gives using so many SRM-contributing ingredients. I am at 15 with just a half pound of special B and caramunich, and if I used dark candi it would push it way high. I don't care that much, but I'd like to understand how this works. Unless beersmith is wrong, then most dubbel recipes out there end up way too dark.

Also, how does leaving out sugar make something lighter? Also, I'm pretty sure Chimay uses table sugar.

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He said that he found the original recipe too light, and when he left out the table sugar then he preferred it. Corn sugar ferments out completely, leaving little to no residual body. Leaving it out and aiming for the same OG is going to give you a higher FG and a fuller mouthfeel.

I suggest using the .5 lb of aromatic which will give you the color you want. I'd also suggest carmelizing the sugar yourself (sugar + water + acid + heat = carmely sugar), which will allow you to control the color of the sugar and, I believe, makes some of the sugar less fermentable.

devilishprune said:

He said that he found the original recipe too light, and when he left out the table sugar then he preferred it. Corn sugar ferments out completely, leaving little to no residual body. Leaving it out and aiming for the same OG is going to give you a higher FG and a fuller mouthfeel.

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Yessir, that's right. It was too dry (1.008) and a bit alcoholic with the sugar.

IIRC, my dubbel was a little over the SRM for style, over 17. The style guidelines as of 2008 say 10-17. You could use 1/2lb of syrup and bump the special b up a couple ounces. Don't leave out the aromatic. Really enhances the maltiness without adding a ton of fermentables.

smizak said:

Yessir, that's right. It was too dry (1.008) and a bit alcoholic with the sugar.

IIRC, my dubbel was a little over the SRM for style, over 17. The style guidelines as of 2008 say 10-17. You could use 1/2lb of syrup and bump the special b up a couple ounces. Don't leave out the aromatic. Really enhances the maltiness without adding a ton of fermentables.

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This all makes sense now. I'll try Jamil's recipe, minus the table sugar, with a lb of wheat thrown in.

Thanks a lot for your help!

Use a little aromatic or, as some homebrewers do, a little honey malt.

Have you tried decoction mashing? It's a contentious topic, and I'm sure people will disagree, but I think you can wring a lot of malt flavor out of 2-row by decocting, instead of using a 'specialty malt soup' to get the flavor.

To me the hardest part of making a Chimay like beer is the yeast stain. Chimay doesn't have an over-the-top Belgian yeast character, tho' it's certainly got a Belgian flavor. I've yet to find a yeast that does that well. (Suggestions welcome!)

My last attempt was using Wyeast Belgian Ardennes at a cool temp (64) to minimize the phenols, turned out too earthy...

I'm pretty sure chimay yeast is 550. If not, 550 would work very well. Or 575.

fastricky said:

To me the hardest part of making a Chimay like beer is the yeast stain. Chimay doesn't have an over-the-top Belgian yeast character, tho' it's certainly got a Belgian flavor. I've yet to find a yeast that does that well. (Suggestions welcome!)

My last attempt was using Wyeast Belgian Ardennes at a cool temp (64) to minimize the phenols, turned out too earthy...

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Earthy in what way? I fermented a dubbel a little warm with Ardennes so that I could accentuate the Belgian character. Now you've got me worried about it!

Earthy like East Kent Goldings but not sweet. But if you went warm you'll be OK, I went cold. Mind you it wasn't bad, just not what Chimay is.

I've used 550, 500, 560 and found they all had too many phenols/banana/bubble gum/etc compared to Chimay.

fastricky said:

Earthy like East Kent Goldings but not sweet. But if you went warm you'll be OK, I went cold. Mind you it wasn't bad, just not what Chimay is.

I've used 550, 500, 560 and found they all had too many phenols/banana/bubble gum/etc compared to Chimay.

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At what temperature, though? I'm going to try 64 for the first two weeks, and then ramp up to 70 during the last week.

My Belgian IPA I brewed over the summer used 550, and back then I didn't have a fermentation chamber so the temperature was 70-72. It has zero banana taste.

I'm no expert on Belgian's but would add a couple things.

One, if you want Chimay yeast, go buy a bottle of Chimay, drink it, and pitch the dregs in a starter. I did this about 2 weeks ago and it worked just fine, though you will need to give the starter 2 days on the stir plate to get going. The hydro samples from my Dubbel were fantastic.

Second, rexbanner, you might want to consider pitching at 64 and once fermentation begins let the fermenter free rise to 70 F. I think if you wait two weeks to raise the temperature your beer will have completely attenuated and you will have likely suppressed the estery goodness the yeast is supposed to produce.

fastricky said:

Earthy like East Kent Goldings but not sweet. But if you went warm you'll be OK, I went cold. Mind you it wasn't bad, just not what Chimay is.

I've used 550, 500, 560 and found they all had too many phenols/banana/bubble gum/etc compared to Chimay.

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wlp500 is the Chimay yeast strain.

Temp, oxygen and pitching rates have a big effect on esters. I try to keep the oxygen and pitching rates as constants and adjust temps to effect the esters. If I find the esters over the top, I re-brew at a cooler temp.

I've had great success with the chimay yeast (wlp 500) starting at 64F and slowly rising the temp over several days to the low 70's.