Northern Brewer AG kit vid...no vorlauf?

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scrambledegg81

scrambledegg81

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I'll post the vid since it poses the question I want to ask (starts around 6:20):



The biggest thing I noticed about the method/kit here, there was no recirculation of the wort, and therefore, no vorlauf. Correct me if I'm wrong (never done AG, just looking into procedures at the moment...), but I thought recirculating was one of the most important things to do if you want to extract as much sugar from the grain bed as possible? The one-way system/method he has there just seems a bit "simple" from what I thought was needed for AG.

If not, I'm heading to Home Depot then. :D
 
Last edited by a moderator:
AFAIK recirculating is simply to clear the wort of the pieces of grain before transferring it to the BK. To extract as much sugars as possible you would sparge.
 
Yes, you should recirculate the wort, but it is more for clearing the wort than getting more sugar extraction. It is simply collecting your first runnings in a pitcher, then pour that gently over the grain bed to re-filter it (collect 1/4 - 1/2 gal for a 5 gal batch)

About that setup: don't use brass. Ppl will debate this all day and night. The fact is simply that brass contains lead, the brass valve generally comes from China (lead in toothpaste, nuff said), and the hot and acidic wort is going to solublize a portion of that lead every time you brew. And you will be drinking that brew. Sure, you can treat the surface to lower the lead leaching. But you can also use stainless steel (but you won't find that at HD/lowes)

If you are using round cooler like that, I would just use a 1 ft stainless steel braid instead of that false bottom. Way cheaper and will work fine (ppl will also debate this).

Basically, that set-up is just a way for them to make money. Make your own, with parts from HD. You can use a brass valve to start with while you are learning the process, then step up to the SS valve if/when you decide to keep doing the all-grain.

On that point, just buy a reg. cooler with a drain at the bottom. You will have more options in the future for you all-grain brewing. Or buy the 10-gal round cooler, but that is going to be 2x the price of a reg. cooler.

Also, look up batch sparging if you are first starting out. If you don't have anyone showing you how to brew, its a bit easier (read: harder to screw-up) than the "fly sparging" method shown in that vid.
 
Good points! I've already got a 10-gallon cooler setup with SS valve and a mesh strainer fitted over a slotted piece of hi-temp tubing inside (idea came from LHBS guy...saved me from spending on a sparge arm!). Just wondered about the procedure they were using there...guess it's Home Depot then!
 
Lets try to make it so you don't have to make multiple trips to HD.

Are you going to fly sparge?
Are you planning on using the 10 gal cooler for the mashtun? (I would)

Fly sparging: is fairly straight forward. You don't need a sparge arm or any piece of "equipment". With the 10 gal cooler as the MLT, you mash your grains in there, ~1.25qt H2O/lb of grain for 1 hour @ 150 - 158, higher temp = more body, lower temp = more fermentability. But you prolly know this.

Once the hour of mashing is done, you vorlauf, then you start collecting the wort into your brew pot. This is when you start the fly sparging. As the wort is being collected in your brew pot, the level of liquid above the grain bed starts to drop (obviously). You want to keep this level ~2" above the grain bed. You accomplish this by constantly/intermittently supplying sparge water to the MLT. This is fly sparging.

To do this (cheap): you can just ladle small amounts of hot (180 - 200 F) water on top of the mash, gently. And that's it! You continue doing this until you collect your pre-boil wort amount in your brew pot (~7 gal for a 5.5-6 gal batch, boiled for 60 min.).
This is why ppl want sparge arms, because it gets boring ladling the hot sparge water over the mash for the 45 - 60 minutes it takes to collect your pre-boil volume.
Of course, you could increase the flow rate out of the mash tun, but your efficiency will suffer greatly (read: don't try to rush the sparge!). Why? Wort starts channeling in the mash, not rinsing the sugars like it should be doing.
Since you have a SS braid in your cooler, the chances of this happening are greater (b/c there is a single point of suction at the bottom of your cooler). That just means to take the full 45 - 60 min. to sparge. You're efficiency should be like 80-85% if you are doing it correctly.

Let me know what your all-grain plan is and we can make it work with the least amount of equipment. Then in the future (with more experience) you can decide what fancy/expensive equipment you might want to make the brew day less demanding on you.
 
You, sir, get the Golden Brau award of the day. :D

One thing I'm confused about with sparging, considering the tubing would have to go back over the top of the grain, wouldn't it require a March pump?

With that said, I already mentioned that I have one 10-gal set up with the mesh screen & hi-temp tubing, and SS valve already done (MLT, I'm guessing). At this rate, I was going to do another 10-gal cooler in the same way, but just install the valve and use it as the HLT. Think my kettle is either 6 1/2 or 7 gal., so I might need to grab a bigger one before making the jump.
 
scrambledegg81 said:
One thing I'm confused about with sparging, considering the tubing would have to go back over the top of the grain, wouldn't it require a March pump?
Click to expand...

If you have your HLT higher than your MLT you can simply drain the hot liquor into your MLT as your sparge. A pump wouldn't be needed unless you're running a single-tier system.
 
funkswing said:
Of course, you could increase the flow rate out of the mash tun, but your efficiency will suffer greatly (read: don't try to rush the sparge!).
Click to expand...

I couldn't find that thread. Could you provide a link? I'd like to read it :)

funkswing said:
Since you have a SS braid in your cooler, the chances of this happening are greater (b/c there is a single point of suction at the bottom of your cooler). That just means to take the full 45 - 60 min. to sparge. You're efficiency should be like 80-85% if you are doing it correctly.
Click to expand...

Palmer says to sparge at a rate of 1qt per minute. If he sparged an entire 7 gallons it would only take 28 minutes. He'd probably only sparge with 4-5 gallons total so he should be done in 20 minutes. Again, I haven't read the thread you mentioned above so I don't know the benefits of sparging for a longer period.
 
I think there isn't a vorlauf because they're just giving an overview. It's still a good step to follow to make sure you don't get too many grain bits. No matter how you sparge.

I'm no expert but I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss that kit. If you read a lot of the posts (mine included) you might notice what you don't see. You don't see many complaints with round coolers and with false bottoms. I think there's a reason for that as well as a reason why kits from places like NB always sell round cooler and false bottoms.

Can you save money and do this yourself with stuff around the house and trips to Home Depot? Yes. Can you do just as good or better than if you had one of these kits? Yes. But I do think you will have more questions and issues going that route and you will also do more tinkering. If you like to tinker that's fine too.

I'm a good example. I used a square cooler I already had. I bought the parts for the valve and a SS mesh screen. I've converted to a cpvc manifold that I made to replace the SS mesh screen. I've stitched together other coolers and parts to try fly sparging. I've spent plenty of time tweaking and yet I'm still not where I'd like to be. I often think that I would have saved tons of time had I just bought a 10g like NB sells.
 
I think there's a reason for that as well as a reason why kits from places like NB always sell round cooler and false bottoms.
Click to expand...
Because the two most popular home brewing books have pictures of them in their "DIY mash tun sections"?

Northern Brewer will most def. sell you whatever you think you need.
 
jerryalan - There isn't a thread called that, I was just trying to explain what I was saying, read = "as in"

I was just trying to give the OP pointers. He can fine tune his sparging after he actual does it a couple of times.

You can sparge at whatever speed you want, with eff. really being the variable. With a SS braid, you should go slower as to not create a suction on the grain bed that creates channeling in the wort. This would essential mean that the sparge water is running thru the mash w/o extracting the sugars that it needs to be extracting.
Why with a SS braid? B/c it is a single point of suction, compared to a slotted manifold or false bottom, which would distribute the suction over a wider area.
 
scrambledegg81 said:
One thing I'm confused about with sparging, considering the tubing would have to go back over the top of the grain, wouldn't it require a March pump?QUOTE]

No, you vorlauf into a new and unseen (in the video) container (a pitcher or whatever) and return that manually to the mash tun. Then you gravity feed your sparge water to your mash tun during the fly sparge and let gravity take your sweet runnnings from the mash tun into the kettle. No pump needed unless it is a single tier system as noted by a helpful poster above.

And the vorlauf is done only to keep grain chunks/powder from being boiled in the kettle where it might impart astringent taste to the wort. You should do it to keep any grain particles out of the boil kettle. It has nothing to do with increasing the yield of the sugar from the grains.
Click to expand...
 
funkswing said:
You can sparge at whatever speed you want, with eff. really being the variable. With a SS braid, you should go slower as to not create a suction on the grain bed that creates channeling in the wort. This would essential mean that the sparge water is running thru the mash w/o extracting the sugars that it needs to be extracting.
Why with a SS braid? B/c it is a single point of suction, compared to a slotted manifold or false bottom, which would distribute the suction over a wider area.
Click to expand...

AFAIK, the book by Palmer is what is commonly referenced on the topic because he appears to be the one who did the most research. The topic starts earlier but this link covers most of the details. He also has a reference to this article which has a quote saying:

The principles to remember: All this detail can be summed up in three principles for efficient extraction. First, the higher the total collection area that feeds the flow, the slower the intake velocity at a particular site. Second, the slower the intake velocity at each site, the greater the volume above the site that will "feed" that site. Third, an increased volume feeding the collection system means fewer dead zones, less channeling, and better total extraction.
Click to expand...

So speed is kind of a factor because slow speeds can avoid compaction but with a SS braid I think you are limited to smaller collection area with more dead zones and channeling. So a SS braid having a single area of suction isn't necessarily a benefit according to this article. Also speed is universal to whatever you have at the bottom of the mash tun in that going to fast can result in compaction.

Then again, I've seen people argue many times here that Palmer is wrong about a lot of things.
 
funkswing said:
jerryalan - There isn't a thread called that, I was just trying to explain what I was saying, read = "as in"

I was just trying to give the OP pointers. He can fine tune his sparging after he actual does it a couple of times.

You can sparge at whatever speed you want, with eff. really being the variable. With a SS braid, you should go slower as to not create a suction on the grain bed that creates channeling in the wort. This would essential mean that the sparge water is running thru the mash w/o extracting the sugars that it needs to be extracting.
Why with a SS braid? B/c it is a single point of suction, compared to a slotted manifold or false bottom, which would distribute the suction over a wider area.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the clarification! :mug: The idea of slower sparging while using the SS braid makes a lot of sense to avoid channeling. I haven't fly sparged since doing all grain but have an interest. I batch sparge right now but I made a manifold in my MLT so I could fly sparge soon.
 
jerryalan - You should check out the Stickied post "Hybrid Fly Sparge Technique" in the all grain forum.

Ignore the OP at first. Go to the 2nd to last page at the bottom, read spareparts post. Then go back and find Wildwest's post (its towards the beginning).

The method they describe is a great hybrid method that is very similar to batch sparging, but you add in a little bit of fly sparging after you start draining your batch sparge water. An easy way to boost eff. and introduce yourself to fly sparging.

But batch sparging is fine too, you can just get a better eff. (usually) thru fly sparging, which means you save like a $1 a batch or so. So, the question is "is it really worth it?". I dunno, but its fun to experiment.
 
funkswing said:
jerryalan - You should check out the Stickied post "Hybrid Fly Sparge Technique" in the all grain forum.

Ignore the OP at first. Go to the 2nd to last page at the bottom, read spareparts post. Then go back and find Wildwest's post (its towards the beginning).
Click to expand...

Thanks for the reference. When I was partial mashing this is exactly what I did. I'm going to try this on my next brew day!
 
Me too, I haven't actually tried it yet. I've always been a batch sparger getting 75% eff. I'm ok with that, but if I could get 80-85% with a slight tweak in my sparging I'm willing to try it out.

My take on the method is: mash per usual, vorlauf, and drain the MLT completely into your brewpot. Next, divide your normal batch sparge water in half. Add one half like a normal batch sparge. Mix it up, let it settle for a min., then vorlauf, and start collecting that wort. Now with the other half of sparge water, slowly ladle it on top of the mash to keep that 1-2" water level. When you are out of the sparge water, just let it all drain into your brew pot (like normal batch sparging).

Why it gets more eff.? Because you are keeping a constant head pressure with the sparge water for a portion of the sparge. This helps "push" the denser sugar out of the MLT into the brew pot.

Why not just fly sparge? I dunno. I'm a batch sparger? I might in the future. Both ways make great beer.
 
wilserbrewer said:
For $208 for the five gallon system, YOU have to do the assembly, and buy your own teflon tape....ouch.
Click to expand...

It goes back to what I said before in that you can probably save money by shopping around but you can save time but just going with a place like NB or AHS and getting the kit. Looking back at my experiences thus far, I wish I had just saved tons of time and frustration (and money) and paid for an AG kit up front.

If you look at the parts like they list here you can pick apart each item and find bargains. The valve kits are mentioned here often as being overpriced since a hardware store can stock them for less. Then again, get a wrong part or forget something and it's back to the store you go. Never mind the fact you had to drive to the store in the first place instead of just ordering online (but then again there is shipping costs too). But if you look at just the 10g cooler for $77.99 you can search and find prices from $50 to $100. The Igloo online store appears to sell for $79.99 while Walmart sells an Eagle One brand for $105. So is $77.99 all that bad? I suppose if you're a garage sale expert and you only pay $10 the answer is yes but I personally detest garage sales and would pay $10 to not have to go to them. You can buy grain in bulk and save money over a retailer but you're stuck storing it so it's not exactly the same.

So the valve kits, cooler, and tubing can all probably be found for less but if you're lazy like me then sometimes it's worth paying one place the extra for putting it all in one package. I assume the false bottom can only be bought from a brewing store though so no real way to save there unless you make one.

But I'm a bit biased. I like these retailers and I am willing to pay more for parts and ingredients to support them. I am also tired of experimenting with parts to try and improve my efficiency so I see huge value in kits like this. Like I said before, I've yet to see many (if any) complaint posts from users of these 10g round cooler kits with false bottoms. It's not scientific proof that these kits work well but it does imply that they work well.
 

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