Ruined Two Batches: Need Help in SD

The title says it all. I've been brewing for over three years without any problems, until now. I made the following beer twice with the same result.

http://www.bertusbrewery.com/2012/11/ipa-clone-series-firestone-walker.html

17.75lbs 2-Row
2.5lbs Munich
5oz Simpsons Caramalt (I used carastan 35L)
Mash @ 145 for 60 min then 155F for 10 min
2oz Warrior @ 90
1oz ea Centennial/Cascade/Chinook @ 30
2.5oz ea Centennial/Cascade @ 0
WLP002 - English Ale Yeast - 1 gallon starter (I pitched 3 vials instead of making a starter)

Dry Hop 1: .5oz ea Centennial/Cascade
Dry Hop 2: .5oz ea Centennial/Cascade/Amarillo/Simcoe
Dry Hop 3: .5oz ea Centennial/Cascade
Dry Hop 4: .5oz ea Centennial/Cascade .25oz ea Amarillo/Simcoe
3-4 days per addition (I never added the dry hops since in tasted terrible)

I scaled it down to five gallons and hit both gravities. However, the hydrometer sample after a week tastes absolutely terrible. It almost tastes like peat or dirt. It is so strong that I can not even taste the beer.

I'll explain my setup and procedure.

I do an all-grain BIAB using the High Gravity electric brewery (http://blog.highgravitybrew.com/2013/07/high-gravity-has-a-brew-in-a-bag-electric-brewing-system/). I start with R/O water from the Vonn's down the street and add 1 teaspoon of calcium chloride and 1 teaspoon of calcium sulfate. The temperature is maintained within 1-3 degrees of 145 for 60 minutes then raised to 155 for 10 minutes. I squeeze the hell out of the grains after the mash to get every drop out. Afterwards I cool the wort down quickly with a plate chiller and pitched the three vials of 002. The temperature is maintained between 63-67 in a chest freezer. I hit the OG dead on and the FG after 6 days. However, when I tasted the hydrometer sample it is absolutely aweful. I thought it was a fluke the first time, but I am really worried since the second batch tastes identical to the first.

If anyone has any ideas I would appreciate the help. I've wasted a considerable amount of money and time of these two batches of beer and I am hesitant to make any more until I have this figured out. If anyone in the San Diego area has any ideas or would like to smell/taste it I would be willing to drive somewhere to meet up and discuss my failure........

I also added ~3 oz of acid malt to drop the pH, however, I don't regularly check the pH. This might not have been enough to get it into the ideal area which could have been my problem.

I've thought about this constantly over the last few days and I can only think of two things that were different from my previous batches. First, it is possible that I didn't clean off the heating element as well, leaving a black film on the surface. The second is where I purchased my R/O water. Previously I got it from a Glacier dispenser outside of Vonn's but I got it from a Glacier dispenser outside of Ralph's for the two bad batches. I tried another sample of the beer and the taste/smell hasn't faded. I can't even taste the beer over the pungent dirty peaty taste. I'm at a loss and it has me hesitant to make anymore until I've figured it out.

Does anyone have any ideas?

No boil?

Edit: just noticed the minutes with the hop additions. Nm.

Try mashing at 150. Its a lower temp that will convert much of your sugar, and you can lose 1-3 degrees and still have conversion.

What's your sanitation like?

If you used the acid malt, is it possible that the pH was too low? Maybe a shot in the dark, maybe not. My RO water is from Walmart, and I have never had an issue. Ph is stable at 7.5 and my mash is usually in the 5.3 range.

Are you testing for conversion? If you're mashing at 145, but the temp fluctuates as much as 3 degrees, you could be mashing around 142 and I don't think you'll get conversion at that temp.

Thaymond: I'm clean my carboys with hot water and PBW with a carboy cleaner attached to a drill. The acid malt addition is consistent with previous batches that turned out great. I might buy my R/O water from Wal-Mart since I don't trust the Glacier dispensers now.

JonM: I didn't test for conversion, but considering I hit both gravities it had to have gone to complete conversion.

meangreen83 said:

Thaymond: I'm clean my carboys with hot water and PBW with a carboy cleaner attached to a drill. The acid malt addition is consistent with previous batches that turned out great. I might buy my R/O water from Wal-Mart since I don't trust the Glacier dispensers now.

JonM: I didn't test for conversion, but considering I hit both gravities it had to have gone to complete conversion.

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I'd look at the water, and at the possibility of the blackened element. My thinking is that if you've got a smoky peat flavor, that would be from a scorched element. The water is a possibilility also, as high amounts of bicarb or any chlorine in the water can also cause off flavors.

meangreen83 said:

I didn't test for conversion, but considering I hit both gravities it had to have gone to complete conversion.

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I don't know that that necessarily follows, logically. My understanding is that your hydrometer will simply measure the dissolved solids - not just sugars. Whether it's unconverted starches or converted sugars (both fermentable and unfermentable) would be impossible to determine based on hydrometer reading alone. Heck, you could dissolve a bunch of salt in your water and your specific gravity would still rise. So you could have had dissolved, unconverted starch in your wort rather than sugars. The hydrometer wouldn't care - it would read the same regardless.

I personally don't trust buying RO from vendors. There's no way that you can really verify how often they're cleaning those filters. Unless you send off a sample to Ward Labs before every brew day.

I'd try brewing a batch with distilled water and building up the salts from there and see how it turns out.

145 is pretty darn low for mashing. I'd raise that temp up to 150.

Edit: Looks like you didn't do a starch conversion. Yeah, there's no way I'd do a mash at 145 and not check for full conversion. That's asking for trouble. You get a lot of starch in your brew, the starch sticks to the heating element, burned starch, nasty tastes. It adds up.

I agree with you guys as I should have done a starch test to confirm the conversion. Also, I no longer trust the R/O water that I purchased. I'm going to find somewhere I can buy it by the gallon for the next batch and clean every bit of residue off the element. I'm disappointed that I don't have a keg of Double Jack in my fridge right now. I might have to give it another try this weekend.

Has anyone ever tasted a batch that they knew had poor conversion and a bunch of residual starch? The beer tasted fine when I put it into the carboy. If the yeast isn't able to touch the starch, then how would this off-flavors from residual starch arise?

Thanks for the help guys. I'll keep you updated.

Yooper said:

I'd look at the water, and at the possibility of the blackened element. My thinking is that if you've got a smoky peat flavor, that would be from a scorched element. The water is a possibilility also, as high amounts of bicarb or any chlorine in the water can also cause off flavors.

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This, and the final thing I'd do is ask how you store your grain. Your description of "Peaty"...could it possibly be described as musky? If so that's frequently from grain that gets some moisture in it. It can also be from oxygenating the wort on the hot side (HSA-which, most will tell you is a boogie man, but when I get to the BJCP flashcard for "Musty" this is what it says), or oxygenation after fermentation begins. But IMHO it sounds like this is happening too early on in the process for you to get such severe off flavors from oxygenation.

meangreen83 said:

I agree with you guys as I should have done a starch test to confirm the conversion. Also, I no longer trust the R/O water that I purchased. I'm going to find somewhere I can buy it by the gallon for the next batch and clean every bit of residue off the element. I'm disappointed that I don't have a keg of Double Jack in my fridge right now. I might have to give it another try this weekend.

Has anyone ever tasted a batch that they knew had poor conversion and a bunch of residual starch? The beer tasted fine when I put it into the carboy. If the yeast isn't able to touch the starch, then how would this off-flavors from residual starch arise?

Thanks for the help guys. I'll keep you updated.

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I'd caution you to only change one thing at a time. If it's the water, then so be it, but honestly, Glacier is under intense scrutiny of their units after being sued a couple years ago, and by all reports, they're maintaining the very well and producing good water with them. I would be surprised if one machine in your area is owned separately from another owner...meaning, the owner of both machines would keep them both in good working order, or neither. There are lots of variables, but given what I know, I'd be surprised if it's your water.

Edit: were either of them the brew you described here (https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/biab-electric-brewing-system-383137/index3.html#post5853975)? There could be some clues there...you could have over crushed it...or in another post you mentioned (sorry I've been reading the E-BIAB threads today!) mashing really hard on your grains. There is a school of thought that you can extract very harsh tannins by doing either of those things. Anyway, it's food for thought.

I ended up throwing out 6 batches due to water problems last spring. The city water doesn't always come from the same sources in our town and one of the sources they were pulling from had chloromines present. Took me a lot of time and aggravation before I figured it out.

+1 to changing one thing at a time.



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145 isn't that low as long as your thermometer is accurate. I've gone down as low as 140 when I wanted a super dry beer. It's not the mash temp. I don't have the heating element directly in contact with my beer, though. If there is a protein buildup, it could be a problem.

+1 for possibly over-extraction of your grains.

You also could have an infected line or a small mold problem in your chiller. Are your carboys glass or plastic?

If it's a problem with your water, it's probably this guy: http://www.aroxa.com/beer/beer-flavour-standard/2-methylisoborneol/

mysteryshrimp said:

145 isn't that low as long as your thermometer is accurate. I've gone down as low as 140 when I wanted a super dry beer. It's not the mash temp. I don't have the heating element directly in contact with my beer, though. If there is a protein buildup, it could be a problem.

+1 for possibly over-extraction of your grains.

You also could have an infected line or a small mold problem in your chiller. Are your carboys glass or plastic?

If it's a problem with your water, it's probably this guy: http://www.aroxa.com/beer/beer-flavour-standard/2-methylisoborneol/

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Holy s*@t! I think this is it! I circulate very hot wort through my plate chiller for 10 minutes before I turn the water on, so I think if I had any mold in the chiller it would be destroyed fairly quickly. The description of 2-methylisoborneol fits what I am smelling from my hydrometer samples.

Conveniently, I am an organic synthetic chemist and I work for a large pharmaceutical company. I'm going to check our inventory tomorrow and see if we have any 2-methylisoborneol. I doubt we have it, as it doesn't appear that useful, but there is a chance.

Thank you mysteryshrimp!

I might take a sample to work for some analysis. Since I know what compound to look for, I can throw some onto a GCMS a check for 2-methylisoborneol. If it is in there I will find it!