Recipe Copyrights?

Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
This of course flies in the face of what we homebrewers have all understood for years. Asking for a relevant citation is entirely reasonable. If he's correct, and 40K people here on HBT have had it wrong all along, we need to know!

Nice scramble. What you did was tell him (after he stated his credentials) that he didn't know what he was talking about. Here's the quote from you

Might be time to find a new career dude. You're clearly missing the boat on this one.

What you didn't do is ask him to provide evidence (until later). IMO, coming off that way is arrogant. But go for it... like you said, it is the internet.
 
I respect what you are saying jkarp. But as an attorney, I completely understood scruffy's point. And yes, to some extent I would agree that he may have inappropriately declared that your statement was "wrong" as I indicated in my original reply. However, I think you misunderstand the difference between citing a reference for homebrewing and legal citation. For example... to put it into perspective, this is the way I see it: 1. The relevant law for intellectual property could literally fill bookshelves that are 6 feet high and 50 feet long (and that is being conservative). 2. The appropriate citiation for the information is something that 99% of the population would not understand what to do with (this is certainly not to say you don't, but if you do, then you are definitely more advanced than the average non-legal trained person). 3. The individual that did give you citations, you likely accepted without question, but that was three rather minor citations out of thousands of relevant and possibly more accurate responses. 4. Intellectual property law is so dense and complicated that law schools do not have it as a part of their regular curriculum... it is a specialty that usually requires additional years of schooling. 5. The vast amount of information and nuances in such a specialized field cannot possibly be adequately summed up in a couple paragraphs on a government website... if it could then everyone would readily be a competent intellectual property attorney (not to be a smart ass, but that is like saying one knows everything there is about lung cancer by reading a blog on the American Lung Association website). 6. To claim that he isn't qualified to discuss the subject about IP law because he isn't "vetted" in the HBT community would be like you (for sake of argument I assume you ar a very experienced homebrewer) going onto a legal website, interjecting a comment an attorney made about homebrewing, and all of the attorneys on that website shooting you down because you haven't had many posts on a legal website. Seriously... what does one have to do with the other? Finally, ask yourself... the one poster provided appropriate legal citation... Do you know what the citations mean and how to access the documents he cited to? Assuming you do... how many people on this website do you really think know how to find the relevant information in a citation. Even the poster that presented the citations did the difficult work of reading the factually and legally dense information and condensing it down to a VERY short snippet of what those documents actually say.

Like I said before. You were not incorrect in your original statement. Nor was scruffy. Where I think you err is by dismissing scruffy's points unilaterally because he didn't provide you with a citation to a document that the overwhemingly vast majority of the population would have no clue what to do with. To adequately provide you with the citations and hardcore information you likely expect, would have taken him a considerable amount of time and far more pages than the forum would allow for. Attorneys get paid big money to do this because they go to school and study and take rigorous exams and end up with tens of thousands of dollars in student loans to do this competently. I hardly doubt that any attorney (I know I won't) would do this type of work for free and willingly post it on a home brewing website to satisfy the demands of an anonymous poster.

No one was cutting you down. But be realisitic in what you asking for. You wouldn't go on WebMD.com and demand that a physician who provided you with a possible explanation for symptom provide you with the citations to prove his knowledge, would you?

But I say I respect your opinion because if someone came on this site and made a claim that was contrary to generally accepted brewing knowledge, then all of us would demand that he prove his source; because as brewers we all would likely have the appropriate knowledge to verify his information... That is a far cry from asking a legal question that, on its face, appears innocuous, but cannot be easily answered in a complete and thorough manner in a few short sentences.
 
But I say I respect your opinion because if someone came on this site and made a claim that was contrary to generally accepted brewing knowledge, then all of us would demand that he prove his source; because as brewers we all would likely have the appropriate knowledge to verify his information... That is a far cry from asking a legal question that, on its face, appears innocuous, but cannot be easily answered in a complete and thorough manner in a few short sentences.

Entirely fair point, and I probably did come off a bit harsh - had my morning grump on.

Out of genuine curiosity however, I've done some serious searching and cannot find a single example of a copyrighted name / logo...

When threads go off the rails like this, it's generally best for everyone to go back and re-read the OP's question. We wouldn't be here otherwise:

knelson said:
I was thinking the other day about the legality of using a similar recipe (clone recipe) as your own. Do breweries copyright their recipes?

Conventional brewing wisdom says no. Individual beer recipes are not copyrightable and cloning is fine. This wisdom is not HBT exclusive. It has also been written in numerous brewing publications, and echoed over and over by some of the most respected persona in this hobby. Heck, homebrew stores across this country SELL clones. BYO regularly does entire issues of clone recipes.

Nobody expects an IP lawyer to rack up billable hours here but a statement like "a written recipe IS copyrighted as soon as it's written down" definitely warrants some layman level clarification. Otherwise (and no personal attack intended) lawyers are no better than the electricians here who send every newbie running and screaming from HBT for simply asking how a heat stick is built.
 
Nobody expects an IP lawyer to rack up billable hours here but a statement like "a written recipe IS copyrighted as soon as it's written down" definitely warrants some layman level clarification. Otherwise (and no personal attack intended) lawyers are no better than the electricians here who send every newbie running and screaming from HBT for simply asking how a heat stick is built.

Fair statement. Sometimes we lawyers get a bit cerebral...and no offense scruffy... particularly IP lawyers.
 
Entirely fair point, and I probably did come off a bit harsh - had my morning grump on.

Out of genuine curiosity however, I've done some serious searching and cannot find a single example of a copyrighted name / logo...

When threads go off the rails like this, it's generally best for everyone to go back and re-read the OP's question. We wouldn't be here otherwise:



Conventional brewing wisdom says no. Individual beer recipes are not copyrightable and cloning is fine. This wisdom is not HBT exclusive. It has also been written in numerous brewing publications, and echoed over and over by some of the most respected persona in this hobby. Heck, homebrew stores across this country SELL clones. BYO regularly does entire issues of clone recipes.

Nobody expects an IP lawyer to rack up billable hours here but a statement like "a written recipe IS copyrighted as soon as it's written down" definitely warrants some layman level clarification. Otherwise (and no personal attack intended) lawyers are no better than the electricians here who send every newbie running and screaming from HBT for simply asking how a heat stick is built.


I found you a logo --


U.S. Copyright Office


THE MINUTE MAID COMPANY


VA 000830879
Document Status: NEW
June 15, 2007

Type of Work: Visual Material

Registration Number/ Date:
VA0000830879 / 1996-11-12

Copyright Number:
VA0000830879

Year of Publication:
1996

Title:
The Minute Maid Company.

Copyright Claimant:
Coca-Cola Company

Date of Creation:
1996

Date of Publication:
1996-10-14

Description:
Advertising logo.

Name(s):
Coca-Cola Company ; author ; claimant

Basis of Copyright Claim Code:
S Art work

Copyright Registration Class:
Visual arts

Monograph Type:
Published


But I agree that recipes are generally not copyrightable, see 2 Patry on Copyright § 4:23 (2011), and names generally aren't as well, see 1 McCarthy on Trademarks and Unfair Competition § 6:19 (4th ed., 2011).
 
I want to mainly address some potential confusion among what seems to be a lot of people, despite previous posts by others which I thought clarified these issues. To the OP and anyone who just wants my opinion, for what it's worth, regarding what you can or can't do with respect to clone beer, just skip to the last paragraph. The paragraphs between contain explanation, which at this late hour will probably be less-than-equisitely-conveyed.

Initially, I should have been more clear about my statement that Jkarp quotes above. I said “...a written recipe IS copyrighted as soon as it's written down” but this was entirely too thin and I should have expanded. As this link (provided by Jkarp) to the Copyright Office's website points out, a mere listing of ingredients is not enough, but “...where a recipe or formula is accompanied by substantial literary expression in the form of an explanation or directions...there may be a basis for copyright protection”. My point was: writing the recipe down will automatically create whatever copyright protection it deserves, and that that protection may be something more than 'no protection' (provided it contains, what the Copyright Office terms, 'substantial literary expression'). Some posts appear to take the stance that a beer recipe could never be copyrighted, and my point (albeit not so-well conveyed in my earlier post), was and is that that stance is improper. BigBlueDog made this point earlier as well.

Also, I think Jkarp's most recent post exemplifies a misconception that perhaps a bunch of people have: Jkarp writes: “Conventional brewing wisdom says no. Individual beer recipes are not copyrightable and cloning is fine. This wisdom is not HBT exclusive. It has also been written in numerous brewing publications, and echoed over and over by some of the most respected persona in this hobby. Heck, homebrew stores across this country SELL clones. BYO regularly does entire issues of clone recipes.”

Whether the brewing community respects this or not, as noted above: beer recipes are not per se uncopyrightable. In practice, it might be difficult to see how/why anyone would want to, or be able to, successfully inject 'substantial literary expression' into a beer recipe, but that isn't significant to the inquiry whether the subject-matter of “beer recipe” is or is not copyrightable. Putting that point aside, there's another issue I have with jkarp's quoted language above, which I read as saying 'the brewing community holds that copyright in a beer recipe doesn't exist, and so cloning a beer is fine. This is a popular stance; look at what homebrew stores do and even BYO magazine does, in selling clones and publishing entire magazine(s) of clones.' This statement implies, to me, that BYO and homebrew stores are comfortable with selling cones and publishing recipes since they hold the belief that copyrighting a beer recipe is not possible. [If this reading of jkarp's post is incorrect or inaccurate, point it out.] I would be surprised if BYO operates on the false premise that publishing a recipe is OK 'because the recipe is not and cannot be copyrighted”. My statement in this regard is: “The legality of cloning a beer, selling a clone of a beer, or publishing a clone recipe of a beer does not rest on the inability to copyright a beer recipe.” This is because: (i) a beer recipe might be copyrighted (see above), and also because (ii) copyright protection would not protect against these activities anyway. So, while the conclusion that 'cloning, selling a clone, or publishing a recipe of clone beer is not illegal' is correct (in my opinion), the reasons that the homebrew community uses to justify this, assuming we take jkarp's alleged (by me) implication as accurately representing the stance of the homebrew community and BYO, are erroneous.

If you had a copyright on a beer recipe it would prohibit basically duplication and distribution of the recipe, and perhaps recitation of the recipe in public, assuming that the duplication/distribution/recitation captured the artistic elements that spawned copyrightability in the recipe. It would not prevent someone from making the beer; making the beer is the act of following the recipe to produce the beer, and neither the act, nor the beer is copyrighted, the recipe is copyrighted. It would also not prevent someone from distributing a clone recipe kit of the beer, because the kit (assembly of ingredients in their proportions) is not copyrighted. The potentially sticky area, as I see it, is in the publishing of the recipe. The recipes I typically see in BYO and in homebrew books, shops, and kits consist of a listing of ingredients with some brief process steps which include some temperature and timing directions. A mere listing of ingredients is not enough, and a listing + procedure/directions is also generally not enough (see qbst's previous post). Therefore, those who disseminate an ingredient listing and process steps of a copyrighted beer recipe have almost nothing to worry about, since it isn't those isolated aspects which attain copyright protection. I say almost nothing to worry about because if that dissemination captured the artistic elements of the copyrighted beer recipe, then that would potentially be cause for problems. The only example I can immediately think of that could get BYO in trouble is if they photocopied into the magazine the copyrighted beer recipe.

The above paragraph assumes that we're dealing with making, selling, and publishing the actual recipe. If we're talking about a “clone” beer in the sense that the recipe was independently formulated, perhaps even using tidbits from the brewers/insiders, such as hop variety, grain bill ratio, etc., then there is even less potential of unlawful activity, as I see it. Isn't this independent formulation what BYO and the other sources for clone recipes actually do? Formulation usually just produces an ingredient list and the process (right?) – generally not copyrightable (see above and qbst's post). Any incorporation of the artistic elements (of the copyrighted original) into the formulated clone that are relevant to copyrightability would almost certainly be coincidental and from independent creation (a defense to an allegation of copyright infringement). And, since we're dealing only with ingredient list and a process in the typical formulation anyway, the chances of nailing the artistic elements of the copyrighted original is so slim, by virtue of the fact that it is difficult for the list and/or process to encompass any of the salient artistic qualities in the first place.

For those wondering about whether they need to worry when dealing clones, I say: If you aren't under contractual obligation to refrain from developing or making the clone, you didn't receive misappropriated trade secret information on which you now act, and you don't take a copyrighted beer recipe and photocopy it, you are probably good to go. Making your own recipe that tastes exactly like some other beer that happens to be made from a copyrighted recipe or happens to be marketed using a trademark, without more, is not unlawful, and neither is following a kit you get at the HBS.
 
I think it's important to emphasize the distinction that ANY COPYRIGHT ON A RECIPE FOR BEER HAS NO IMPACT ON WHETHER OR NOT YOU CAN BREW THAT BEER FROM THAT RECIPE, IT ONLY PROHIBITS UNAUTHORIZED DUPLICATION OF THAT PARTICULAR PRINTED RECIPE FOR BEER.

Copyright protects original works in a tangible medium of expression, it's not anything resembling a substitute for trade secret protection.
 
seems like the best protection is branding and marketing... copyrights and trademarks can help protect your brand... the idea of a secret recipe is really part of that branding and marketing message- you create the idea that you have something special that nobody else has. It is highly unlikely someone will be using the exact same recipe and process. There are way too many variables. So many that even your batches will not all turn out 100% the same every time.. maybe close but year after year your malt suppliers might change and the sugar contents could be a bit different.. or the hops AA values different so you tweak things.

ok.. I'm rambling now...
 
I think the can copywrite the names thats about it. I know that ab tried to sue dfh for naming punkin ale to generally.
:off:
AB Sued Dog Fish Head more than just over this because they are a$$ holes and don't like anyone taking any of their market share no mater how small a piece it may be. Go watch beer wars and you will see what the big guys do to the little guys.

Sorry not really relevant to this convo but I couldn't believe it went by without anyone saying anything about it :cross:
 
Back
Top