Closed-system pressurized fermentation technique!

Mad scientist:

I see photos showing you using a oxygen pumping station set up on a stool. Have you abandoned that?

(I use a recirculating pump on the Sanke and inject the oxygen into a tee and run for 5 minutes. Then unplug the oxygen tank and "suck" in the yeast and fermcap)

Tom

I gotta say since I stopped using pressure fermentation my beers don't show the quality I expect anymore. It was awesome fermenting at 10 psi and having the beer almost ready to drink at 2 weeks. Now with the plastic fermenters I bought (55 gallon), beer comes out flat and estery.

Trying a Bavarian Hefe fermenting at 12 psi. First proper pressure ferment. Not sure how pressure will affect ester production so I'm letting temp free rise. It's just over 75. :-/

View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1429384515.279782.jpg

Got my parts in today, pressure testing, checking pressure changes per turn of knob. Big thanks to Wortmonger, 1MadScientist, Tegra, Poindexter, Kaiser, and everyone else that has contributed to this thread. I heard about spunding valves from a Home Brewing friend of mine in Germany and did a search and found this great thread. I can't wait to try this out this weekend! Thanks again everyone for taking the time to make your posts!

Looks great. Please let us know how it works out. I'm a few parts short before I give it a try

One thing I might add...

It may help to take frequent tests from the liquid port during the ferment and the cold crash/clearing stage. When I first started I did this out of curiosity but then stopped. I then got plugging dip tube.

I was playing around with a trub trap (same as the cap on the end of a siphon tube) and found I needed to put some spacer in the bottom of the cap to keep it from getting stuck to the bottom of the dip tube. Not sure if it is worth the effort as it may waste more beer than just discarding the first bit.

(Actually on my last sanke ferment I did not test at all and the first opening of the tap was full of congealed yeast. Barely got it cleared. Next time it will be sure to do at least one clearing before crashing)

Tom

Thanks Tom, I will keep that in mind. I was going to try the idea you had in your sketches with the copper cap, but hadn't thought about adding some type of spacer, I'll leave them off. Thanks for taking the time to post your experiences.
Today is brew day here, I will add my experiences as the fermentation unfolds.

View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1430091004.299253.jpg
Here is the set up in action. At 3 psi
Ambient temp is 65 F
On keg at 65. OG 1.046
Other 68 still cooling 1.048
Both pitched with US-05

Anyone have advice for adding a thermowell to a corny? I drilled a hole in the lid and put in a grommet. Dropped the thermowell through that. It leaks very slowly. Will hold pressure for a few days, but not much longer. Is there a better way?

FuriousE said:

Anyone have advice for adding a thermowell to a corny? I drilled a hole in the lid and put in a grommet. Dropped the thermowell through that. It leaks very slowly. Will hold pressure for a few days, but not much longer. Is there a better way?

Click to expand...

seal the grommet to it with a little food safe silicone, maybe the same between the thermowell and grommet too?

Could you solder the well to the lid?

I imagine the hole is now too big for that, but maybe you could flare the end of the well to be bigger than the hole. I have a couple spare lids (they go on sale for a couple dollars each) and may try this on one with a copper well.

Tom

Permanently mounting a TW to a corny lid may be problematic... you need to maneuver the lid to get it out of the corny.
Maybe check Brew Hardware for a weld-less kit: https://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/mwl12thermowell.htm
That way you can pull the TW to remove the lid.

FuriousE said:

Anyone have advice for adding a thermowell to a corny? I drilled a hole in the lid and put in a grommet. Dropped the thermowell through that. It leaks very slowly. Will hold pressure for a few days, but not much longer. Is there a better way?

Click to expand...

Is there a compression fitting that you could use with it? Have you thought about silver soldering it in place? Please post how you solve this.

The lid goes on and off fine with the thermowell in place, so permanently mounting it is not problematic.

The hole is now too big to solder the well in place.

I have though of silicon - that might be the way I go.

The kit from Brewer's Hardware looks good - anyone know if it would work with this thermowell, which is the one I have?

OMG, is there a summary of experiences and process I can read, the OP link on first page does not work...

sifting through 214 pages... no way....

Whats everyone setting initial fermentation pressure at? I have my valve set to about 4-5psi

mag00n said:

Whats everyone setting initial fermentation pressure at? I have my valve set to about 4-5psi

Click to expand...

I'm following the schedule that mad scientist has in his post a few pages back. This is what I'm following.
On page 187 you will find this post:
Fermentation Temperature and Pressure schedule:
Pitched: 7-16-2013 at 10:30 AM

Day 1 (0 - 12 hours) - 3 PSI @ 65 F
Day 1 (12 - 18 hours) - 4 PSI @ 65 F
(turned knob 1.5 turns)
Day 1 (19+ hours) - 7 PSI @ 65 F
Day 2 - 7 PSI @ 65 F
Day 3 - 7 PSI @ 65 F
Day 4 - 7 PSI @ 65 F (10 Brix)
Day 5 - 7 PSI @ 67 F (9.4 Brix)
Day 6 - 7 PSI @ 67 F (8.7 Brix)
(turned knob 2.5 turns)
Day 7 - 12 PSI @ 71 F
Day 7 - 16 PSI @ 71 F
(turned knob 2 turns)
Day 8 - 20 PSI (estimated)
Day 13 - 19.5 PSI
7-29-2013 8.7 Brix
(turned knob 1/2 turn, to determine if pressure will increase)
Day 14 -
(turned knob 2 turns)
Day 15 - (estimated as crash chill day)
Day 16 - started crash chill
(pressure was 21.5 psi @ 71 F, 1.74 volumes of CO2)
Day 33 - pressure transferred to serving kegs
(pressure was 10.0 psi @ 33 F, 2.63 volumes of CO2)

OG: 1.068
FG: 1.016
Apparent Attenuation: 76.5%
ABV: 6.8%


Also, fermenting in a corny, you can generally get by by filling it up to the welded seam, that is 4.88 gallons or 1 quart less than 5 gallons, and add your Fermcap-S and try to get to 7 psi after the first day (4 psi might do it too).

I would say that most of us use some method of trapping any blow off from getting into our spunding valve, some use clear water filter housings.

And a BIG WARNING, use a hop spider to contain those pellet hops, hops will block the poppets and build up extreme uncontrolled pressure.
__________________
In Cat Beers - I've Only Had One

BIABrewer.info / Closed-system pressurized fermentation technique

Brewing with MS; http://www.flickr.com/photos/madscie...473769/detail/



[emoji482]

BrewdogSC said:

I'm following the schedule that mad scientist has in his post a few pages back. This is what I'm following.
On page 187 you will find this post:
Fermentation Temperature and Pressure schedule:
Pitched: 7-16-2013 at 10:30 AM

Day 1 (0 - 12 hours) - 3 PSI @ 65 F
Day 1 (12 - 18 hours) - 4 PSI @ 65 F
(turned knob 1.5 turns)
Day 1 (19+ hours) - 7 PSI @ 65 F
Day 2 - 7 PSI @ 65 F
Day 3 - 7 PSI @ 65 F
Day 4 - 7 PSI @ 65 F (10 Brix)
Day 5 - 7 PSI @ 67 F (9.4 Brix)
Day 6 - 7 PSI @ 67 F (8.7 Brix)
(turned knob 2.5 turns)
Day 7 - 12 PSI @ 71 F
Day 7 - 16 PSI @ 71 F
(turned knob 2 turns)
Day 8 - 20 PSI (estimated)
Day 13 - 19.5 PSI
7-29-2013 8.7 Brix
(turned knob 1/2 turn, to determine if pressure will increase)
Day 14 -
(turned knob 2 turns)
Day 15 - (estimated as crash chill day)
Day 16 - started crash chill
(pressure was 21.5 psi @ 71 F, 1.74 volumes of CO2)
Day 33 - pressure transferred to serving kegs
(pressure was 10.0 psi @ 33 F, 2.63 volumes of CO2)

OG: 1.068
FG: 1.016
Apparent Attenuation: 76.5%
ABV: 6.8%


Also, fermenting in a corny, you can generally get by by filling it up to the welded seam, that is 4.88 gallons or 1 quart less than 5 gallons, and add your Fermcap-S and try to get to 7 psi after the first day (4 psi might do it too).

I would say that most of us use some method of trapping any blow off from getting into our spunding valve, some use clear water filter housings.

And a BIG WARNING, use a hop spider to contain those pellet hops, hops will block the poppets and build up extreme uncontrolled pressure.
__________________
In Cat Beers - I've Only Had One

BIABrewer.info / Closed-system pressurized fermentation technique

Brewing with MS; http://www.flickr.com/photos/madscie...473769/detail/



[emoji482]

Click to expand...

Thanks for elaborationg on your initial response, very informative. I actually do 2-3 gallon batches of 1.070 or less gravity in a 5 gallon corny so Im not overly concerned with blow off. I havent decided if Im going to let it naturally carb or leave it 4-5 psi for the duration and force carb after transferring and dry hopping.

Hello:

It seems I am almost double the pressure on my schedule.

Start at 5 (to make sure it is all sealed)
After fermentation has started (gas releasing at a good pace) I crank it up 2 psi and then up to 10 6 hour later.
By the second day of active ferment it goes up to 24, to begin collecting co2.

(I have waited for day 4 or 5 but, with Nottingham, most of the fun is over buy that time and I have a hard time reaching my collection pressure)

Tom

Thanks Tom. I would really appreciate seeing your pressure schedule. I found the sketches you shared on harvesting CO2 for later use in carbonating very informative. It's on my list of things to try in the near future. Thanks for taking the time to share your experience!
[emoji482]

Are you guys sanitizing the valves regularly? If so, how? Mine was an absolute btch to get leak free and Id hate to disassemble it frequently...

mag00n said:

Are you guys sanitizing the valves regularly? If so, how? Mine was an absolute btch to get leak free and Id hate to disassemble it frequently...

Click to expand...

Early on in the thread, I saw a post of someone who put NRS in a keg, then pushed it out through the valve to sanitize it. This is what I plan to do, but haven't tried it yet.

mag00n said:

Are you guys sanitizing the valves regularly? If so, how? Mine was an absolute btch to get leak free and Id hate to disassemble it frequently...

Click to expand...

No I do not sanitize mine. My thought process is that there is never anything flowing from the valve to the keg. I use a water filter as an air lock so I only sanitize up to and including the filter housing.

BrewdogSC said:

I'm following the schedule that mad scientist has in his post a few pages back. This is what I'm following.
On page 187 you will find this post:
Fermentation Temperature and Pressure schedule:
Pitched: 7-16-2013 at 10:30 AM

Day 1 (0 - 12 hours) - 3 PSI @ 65 F
Day 1 (12 - 18 hours) - 4 PSI @ 65 F
(turned knob 1.5 turns)
Day 1 (19+ hours) - 7 PSI @ 65 F
Day 2 - 7 PSI @ 65 F
Day 3 - 7 PSI @ 65 F
Day 4 - 7 PSI @ 65 F (10 Brix)
Day 5 - 7 PSI @ 67 F (9.4 Brix)
Day 6 - 7 PSI @ 67 F (8.7 Brix)
(turned knob 2.5 turns)
Day 7 - 12 PSI @ 71 F
Day 7 - 16 PSI @ 71 F
(turned knob 2 turns)
Day 8 - 20 PSI (estimated)
Day 13 - 19.5 PSI
7-29-2013 8.7 Brix
(turned knob 1/2 turn, to determine if pressure will increase)
Day 14 -
(turned knob 2 turns)
Day 15 - (estimated as crash chill day)
Day 16 - started crash chill
(pressure was 21.5 psi @ 71 F, 1.74 volumes of CO2)
Day 33 - pressure transferred to serving kegs
(pressure was 10.0 psi @ 33 F, 2.63 volumes of CO2)

OG: 1.068
FG: 1.016
Apparent Attenuation: 76.5%
ABV: 6.8%


Also, fermenting in a corny, you can generally get by by filling it up to the welded seam, that is 4.88 gallons or 1 quart less than 5 gallons, and add your Fermcap-S and try to get to 7 psi after the first day (4 psi might do it too).

I would say that most of us use some method of trapping any blow off from getting into our spunding valve, some use clear water filter housings.

And a BIG WARNING, use a hop spider to contain those pellet hops, hops will block the poppets and build up extreme uncontrolled pressure.
__________________
In Cat Beers - I've Only Had One

BIABrewer.info / Closed-system pressurized fermentation technique

Brewing with MS; http://www.flickr.com/photos/madscie...473769/detail/



[emoji482]

Click to expand...

Hi all -

I'm relatively new to this thread and don't have the capacity to read the full history. I'm wondering if there's a reason that there's a "schedule" to the release pressures at all. Why is it necessary to keep tweaking it upward?

My initial thought when I read about the spunding valve concept was to set the lid with 5psi or so and then allow the pressure to build up to the final spunding valve setting, 30psi or so.

Sorry for what I'm guessing is a repeat question...

Best,

Chris

Well depending on your yeast you could reach 30psi over a week or it could happen overnight.

You need to check it, kinda like a smoker. If it goes over, it's harder, or more difficult, to go down than to go up. Also, it allows the beer to not be saturated with CO2 until later in the process to allow volitiles to get out. Think of it like a meat smoker and you'll be fine.

Chris:

When I first started I was very concerned about a pressure profile as well. Not it just let the yeast get started and the up to pressure over a day. I look at it the same as not shocking the yeast with a large temperature change. Don't let the temperature go up more than 10 Psi over a 12 hour period and let it adapt a bit before going higher. Does this have any science behind it? No, it just seems to make sense and allows me to keep a pulse on the progress. (Especially if you are storing some co2 for later carbonation)

Tom

512brew-com said:

My initial thought when I read about the spunding valve concept was to set the lid with 5psi or so and then allow the pressure to build up to the final spunding valve setting, 30psi or so.

Click to expand...

The beer will hit that 30psi very quickly, and the majority of the fermentation will occur at that elevated pressure. High pressure like that during highly active fermentation stresses the yeast and can cause off flavors. I generally do just as you describe, but my final pressure setting is 12-15psi. The 30psi many people raise to at the end is to carbonate the beer, and this should be done after the majority of the fermentation is done.

Ahhh, thanks so much, I think I get it now. Off flavors w too much pressure at first..so, I set to around 10psi for the ferment, then go to 30 at the very end, hope it gets there. If not, I top it off. I'll prob wait a week to turn the pressure valve up, sound about right? I'm sure it depends on the beer..

512brew-com said:

Ahhh, thanks so much, I think I get it now. Off flavors w too much pressure at first..so, I set to around 10psi for the ferment, then go to 30 at the very end, hope it gets there. If not, I top it off. I'll prob wait a week to turn the pressure valve up, sound about right? I'm sure it depends on the beer..

Click to expand...

It depends on the yeast, the yeast starter, how well oxygenated the wort is and temperature. Most of the time I am 100% done fermenting after 7 days. I usually crank it up to 30psi after 4 or 5 days when fermentation has slowed down. Sometimes I don't get all the way up to 30psi and end up in the mid 20s cause it fermented so fast.

BrewdogSC said:

View attachment 273980
Here is the set up in action. At 3 psi
Ambient temp is 65 F
On keg at 65. OG 1.046
Other 68 still cooling 1.048
Both pitched with US-05

Click to expand...

Just an update, the first batch is aged and ready for drinking. This works great!! I will be using this method on all my future brews. Beer is nice and clear, carbonated perfect. Thanks for all the posts sharing your experiences!

I'll keep saying it with the same little cracked smile, "I told ya so." Lol, glad you guys are still posting with your results. Spread the word, and remember it doesn't brew better beer... it makes brewing beer better.

OK, I bit the bullet and decided to do the closed system fermentation in a cornie, I got the quick disconnects, made a spunding valve with a 30 PSI gauge and a CR25-100 pressure reliefe valve, brass tee and fittings, about $40 for the whole thing.

I decided to make a Bells 2 Hearted clone but I was concerned with the krausen that the Safale-05 makes so I let the fermentation work for the first three days in the ferm bucket and transferred it to the cornie last night. Already I have good pressure and carbonation.

I have to pour this beer next Saturday night for a big birthday party so this system is my only hope to get it in the serving can and cool it by then.

Thanks for the idea and working through all the problems, I will look for the thread with a catch that the krausen can be captured in, if you know which post that is, I would appreciate you posting it, there are just too many pages to go through.

Firewalker11 said:

OK, I bit the bullet and decided to do the closed system fermentation in a cornie, I got the quick disconnects, made a spunding valve with a 30 PSI gauge and a CR25-100 pressure reliefe valve, brass tee and fittings, about $40 for the whole thing.

I decided to make a Bells 2 Hearted clone but I was concerned with the krausen that the Safale-05 makes so I let the fermentation work for the first three days in the ferm bucket and transferred it to the cornie last night. Already I have good pressure and carbonation.

I have to pour this beer next Saturday night for a big birthday party so this system is my only hope to get it in the serving can and cool it by then.

Thanks for the idea and working through all the problems, I will look for the thread with a catch that the krausen can be captured in, if you know which post that is, I would appreciate you posting it, there are just too many pages to go through.

Click to expand...

Here is a post with how I use a water filter in between the gas out of the keg and the spending valve.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?p=6746469

Similarly you can use a second corny keg to collect blow off.

One of the snags of fermenting in a Sanke was getting the cake of yeast out as the first part of the cleaning process. I would have to run water for several minutes before the last bit came out.

This time I decided to try harvesting the yeast. I pumped 2 litres of filtered/boiled/cooled water (I possibly should have added 9g of salt per litre to make is isotonic) into the still cool Sanke keg through the liquid port (to also flush the tube as well) and swished it around for about a minute.

Since there was still co2 pressure in the keg (about 8 psi from the transfer to the serving kegs) all I had to do was hook up a disconnect and short open hose and the yeast was pushed into 4 waiting quart jars. (It was just short of filling the last).

I was then able to compete the cleaning of the keg, dealing with just a bit of residue.

Now I have yeast to use and give away!

Tom

Tegra said:

One of the snags of fermenting in a Sanke was getting the cake of yeast out as the first part of the cleaning process. I would have to run water for several minutes before the last bit came out.

Click to expand...

Sounds like you don't take the spear out to clean it? After removing the spear I use the spray nozzle on my garden hose to rinse it out. I will spray a half gallon or so in there, drain it and repeat. Pretty much all of the yeast is out after that. Then it goes on the keg washer.

Well, the 2 hearted clone is ready to serve and I got some good feedback on the nose and flavor but being cloudy, I'll serve it in dark cups.

Firewalker11 said:

Well, the 2 hearted clone is ready to serve and I got some good feedback on the nose and flavor but being cloudy, I'll serve it in dark cups.

Click to expand...

Did you cold crash it before transferring to your serving keg?

Yes, I ran it down to 30 degrees and let it sit at the party for 24 hours, I pulled a pint to clear the lines and cool the tower and Shazam! Clear beer!

One week from grain to glass, another award winning home brewer pulled a pint and asked where we got a keg of 2 hearted locally?

It's about 51 IBU with all Cascade but even non IPA drinkers liked it.

I am very happy with it and will be it again.

You often hear that you can't judge whether fermentation is finished by looking at airlock activity, but can you assume that fermentation is done when the pressure in your fermenter stops increasing (after you've closed your PRV all the way)? I really don't like taking periodic hydrometer readings.

Never mind, I think I had my idea about airlock activity backwards.