clean, lager like ale

ok, i need a few tips how to get lager-like beer without lagering

-is it better to use lager yeast at higher temperatures for lager yeast, or ale yeast at lower temperatures for ale yeast? Let's say I got 61 F in the room - should I use ale or lager yeast?
-of course I can not lager because I haven't got a fridge yet, but i can store it quite cold (50-60 F) for a longer time
-what about mashing - I suppose lower temperatures - longer mashes....
-grain? can I use pilsner with ale yeast (I know I can, I'm just asking what kind of final product I'll have in the end)
-If I use ale yeast at lower temps for ale yeast what strain should it be and vice versa if I use lager yeast what strain should it be for higher temps for lager yeast?
-any proven recipe for what I'm looking for?


if you think I missed some questions, please ask instead of me

thanks

The California Lager yeast works up to 65, but you want to make sure you don't exceed that. Pacman Ale attenuates well and works down at some pretty low temperatures as well. Some have had really good success with Nottingham in the 59-60 range too, which is what I'm using right now for a red ale at about 62 so it shouldn't throw off many esters.

Also, don't use the lager yeast at higher than recommended temps... you'll get some really fruity esters, and I mean really fruity. I accidently grabbed the wrong yeast instead of California and pitched before I realized it was the wrong yeast. It fermented at 62 and totally changed the character of the beer. It was drinkable, but not anything like what I was shooting for - full of fruity esters.

thanks for your response...

I wonder - what if I can ferment lager yeast at recommended temperatures, let's say 53 F...but then I can't lager it at freezing temperatures - lowest I can go is 60 F...

What would I get this way?

I would go with the California lager yeast strain from Wyeast with those perameters. Ferment as cool as you can go, but then lager as you wish. That strain can handle the higher temps.

kammee said:

I would go with the California lager yeast strain from Wyeast with those perameters. Ferment as cool as you can go, but then lager as you wish. That strain can handle the higher temps.

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What about fermentis safelager S-23 dry yeast? I read that it can handle high lagering temps, but I'm not completely sure

You may want to also look into Kolsch yeast.

Wyeast 2565

I just made 2 1gal batches using Pacman in a minifridge that keeps a steady 55*F. Both of them took about 12 hours for krausen.

Check the specs on the Wyeast California Lager like mentioned above.

I think it will do exactely what you are shooting for. It is a lager yeast that mantains lager qualities up to 65 degrees. I don't think you have to treat it like a lager at all. Just ferment in that range and you should be good.

I am about to do a california common aka steam beer with the california lager yeast. I don't have a great setup, but i think it will be good enough. the room is ~70 degrees and i will put it in a plastic storage bin with water and I will drop a couple of frozen water bottlesd in everyday. Alot of guys have had good results with this.

I remember getting some fruitiness from the Cali Lager yeast in a beer. I think given the temps I would go with a Cali Ale or the Kolsch yeast. The Cali Ale (WLP001) can ferment very clean, especially at low temps. When I want a nice clean ale, I use 001 and ferment at 60F.

what attracts me the most by now is kolsch yeast....

if you compare this kolsch yeast with california lager what would be better to achieve what I want?

I aim for fermentation at 60 degrees when I make my Kolsch's. You should try making a kolsch. They are pretty straight forward and my BMC drinking freinds love it. It has become one of my staple styles.

Kolsch yeast does have a distinctive flavor though. It works well with Kolsch's and Altbier's.

I find that WLP060, when fermented in the low 60s, can produce very lagery tasting beers.

steinsato said:

I aim for fermentation at 60 degrees when I make my Kolsch's. You should try making a kolsch. They are pretty straight forward and my BMC drinking freinds love it. It has become one of my staple styles.

Kolsch yeast does have a distinctive flavor though. It works well with Kolsch's and Altbier's.

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would you share your recipe for kolsch? thanks

at those temps kolsch yeast will make a nice, clean and dry beer. I am told the same for US-05, which I am trying for the first time right now, also at around 60deg

As for kolsch recipes, take a look at northernbrewer's kits, they all have the ingredients listed in the instructions on their website.

I would go with the kolsch yeast. I have used and achieved very lagerlike beers in the exact temperature range you are talking about. California Lager is for steam beer and IMO doesn't ferment as cleanly. Kolsch yeast is designed to be fermented around 60 and cold conditioned around 50. That's what you are looking for.

Lately I've been fermenting US-05 California ale yeast at low temps with very nice lager like results. Nice, clean, and great mouthfeel. Give it plenty of time in the primary.

TB

Kolsch yeast works great for a lager-like ale. It will be very, very smooth tasting and neutral, but it won't have that sharp lager crispness.

Also, you could make a lager with the San Fran lager strain, bottle it as normal, then "lager" the bottles in your fridge. So ferment it in the 55-60F range for 3 weeks or so, bottle like like an ale, let the bottles condition at room temp for 3 weeks, then throw a 12 pack into the back of your fridge and don't touch it for 1-2 months. That will get you something closer to a real lager. After 1-2 months, throw another batch in the back of the fridge as you start drinking the first.