American Rye session ale

Hello everybody,

I'm looking to brew a good American style session-able ale next weekend. I've never experimented with rye but enjoy the beers that I've had that use it. After looking through the recipes this https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f70/light-rye-ale-82611/ seems close to what I want, but I'm not interested in the wheat or corn because I'm wanting to experiment with the rye, and would prefer a different type of hops.

I've looked at the founder's red rye ipa clone and it uses some crystal, carapils and aromatic malts. I'm not going for a beer that big and aggressive, but does working in a small amount of crystal and carapils sound like a good idea?

I don't -quite- have all grain capacity, but I can do large partial mashes around 7-7.5 lbs. of grain. I'm looking for something fairly well balanced, but as I said I still want the rye to come out a bit and have that spiciness/rye bite.

Initial thoughts...

About 5 lbs. American 2 row
1.5 lbs. US rye malt
8 oz. crystal 60
8 oz. carapils
1 lb. Briess light DME

Mash high. Amarillo hops (not sure on quantities yet) and Safale US-05 or WLP 001 California Ale.

What do you folks think? Thank you in advance!

I'd get rid of the crystal and the high mash, I think rye stands out better when its drier.

dcp27 said:

I'd get rid of the crystal and the high mash, I think rye stands out better when its drier.

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Thanks for the input. The reason I was considering a higher mash temperature was concern for body/mouthfeel, but highly attenuated/dry makes sense to me. Same reason for getting rid of the crystal?

Thanks again!

I made a partial mash rye pa a while back that I really liked.

2# munich
2# rye malt
Marris otter for the rest (sub out all but one lb for dme our lme)

I mashed at 152, and used white labs cali yeast.

Hopped with willamette only, with lots of late additions.

I think it needed more rye, so I'm going to put in two more lbs of flaked rye for that spiciness you mentioned. Its not a session beer, but if you dropped the base malt so you hit a lower sg, and don't hop aggresively, it might work out for you

Also, session beers, like english milds, do well mashed high, imo

I recently did a rye ale, used 3 lbs (25% of the whole bill), mashed high with amarillo hops and it came out great. Thought I might get too much rye, but what's the point if you can't taste it. The spiciness was definitely there, but not over-powering. I say add a pound or two. I also used a bout 5oz of Special B, rounded it out nicely so I don't see the need to drop the crystal.

lowtones84 said:

Thanks for the input. The reason I was considering a higher mash temperature was concern for body/mouthfeel, but highly attenuated/dry makes sense to me. Same reason for getting rid of the crystal?

Thanks again!

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ya same reason, plus i think higher crystal clashes with rye. a lighter one would prolly go well with it. rye is packed with protein so body isn't much of a worry.

so when I first saw this idea, i envisioned a smaller rye version of gumball head. not sure if thats what you want, but heres one of the various clone recipes out there: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/gumball-head-questions-66939/#post3213244

dcp27 said:

I'd get rid of the crystal and the high mash, I think rye stands out better when its drier.

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i'd be concerned about lack of mouthfeel and feeling thin/watery

IME rye will dry out the beer and mouthfeel

session beers can be hard to get a solid mouthfeel and can feel watery if you don't have many unfermentables or dextrin in there

i use crysal 60 in my Rye Pale ale and Denny's Wrye IPA uses 7.69% crystal 60 as well and his gets rave reviews

Wow, lots of conflicting opinions, but all good ideas nonetheless. I almost feel like making two batches now, one mashed low without the crystal and one mashed high with the crystal. I am definitely not thinking gumballhead, I really don't want wheat in this recipe.

How about around a pound of flaked oats? I've only used them in a stout, but I've heard that it doesn't contribute much flavor while adding to mouthfeel.

Thanks for all the ideas everyone!

lowtones84 said:

Wow, lots of conflicting opinions, but all good ideas nonetheless. I almost feel like making two batches now, one mashed low without the crystal and one mashed high with the crystal. I am definitely not thinking gumballhead, I really don't want wheat in this recipe.

How about around a pound of flaked oats? I've only used them in a stout, but I've heard that it doesn't contribute much flavor while adding to mouthfeel.

Thanks for all the ideas everyone!

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i think if you add the crystal that you would want to mash on the lower side or mash higher if you don't add it

i like rye in my PA/IPA beers because it gives a great crisp/dry mouthfeel - i've never tried it in a session ale though

but it really depends on what your target beer is though - like most things HB related there isn't a wrong way, just a different way

I have a Rye Pale both on the recipes at left and also my blog. One of my best ever.

My general insights are (1) spicy hops mesh really well with the rye and (2) Wyeast American Ale II really brought out the character. My Rye APA finished at about 1.010 which was just perfect and refreshing.

lowtones84 said:

I am definitely not thinking gumballhead, I really don't want wheat in this recipe.

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I meant a rye version of gumballhead, i.e. swap out the wheat for rye

dcp27 said:

I meant a rye version of gumballhead, i.e. swap out the wheat for rye

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That's an interesting idea.

Personally I like spice/pine hops with my rye (Chinook, Simcoe). Maybe I will adapt this idea and do an all Simcoe rye next summer.

dcp27 said:

I meant a rye version of gumballhead, i.e. swap out the wheat for rye

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Ahh, I gotcha. That seems like it would be way too much rye though, right? That would be more than 50% of the grain bill. I'd rather start off somewhat small. I would like to use Amarillo hops, but after reading kyleobie's posts and his rye ale recipe I'll probably try some chinook for FWH and/or 60 minute additions. I don't think I'm going to use munich or honey malts this time, but if I'm not pleased with my recipe I may try something more along those lines.

Interesting discussion. I guess I'm sort of targeting an APA but really I'm just looking for a slightly hoppy but still well balanced American ale featuring rye. Interesting because I don't think there are any specific style guidelines to go by, so thanks to everyone for their input!

I recently started drinking a rye american pale that I'm really happy with, i brew 4 gallon batch sizes so it'll be in % not lbs, but it might give you a starting point:
53% 2 row
38% rye malt
6% carafoam
3% American 60l

I think my only thought would be to increase the 60l a bit to get a bit more color, say something like ~5% each carafoam and 60l.

hop schedule was equal parts centennial at 60min and 10 minutes to ~32 ibus

You could certainly amp up the hops a bit in the late addition if you wanted something with more of a hop flavor, though I enjoy the balance of it as it was.

edited to add: I targeted a 1.041 OG and fermented with US-05

You could also mash .5 - 1 pound of flaked barley to increase body/head if you are worried about it being too thin.

lowtones84 said:

Ahh, I gotcha. That seems like it would be way too much rye though, right? That would be more than 50% of the grain bill.

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ya, its a bit high, but rye can be done up to 100% (i've done it, but don't recommend it). if you were going for something gumball ish id half the rye. in general, I like rye in the 20-30% range.

Dang, you guys are awesome. So now this is what I'm thinking, still considering whether I want the crystal 60 or not...

5 gallon batch:

4 lbs. US 2 row (about 53%)
2 lbs. US Rye Malt (about 27%)
8 oz. Flaked barley (6-7%)
8 oz. Crystal 60 (6-7%)
8 oz. Carapils (6-7%)
1 lb. Briess DME

Mash grains 60 min. @ 148F

.5 oz. Chinhook FWH
.5 oz. Chinhook, .5 oz. Amarillo @ 60 min.
.5 oz. Amarillo @ 15 min.
.5 oz. Amarillo @ 2 min. or flameout

WLP 001 California Ale yeast.

Still all theoretical, of course. Maybe tone down the flaked barley, crystal, or carapils? What do you all think? Or is it time to brew, see what I get and report back? Thanks again!

i'd ditch the carapils and just mash @152F (148F is pretty low in a session). its kinda counterintuitive to add carapils and mash low. plus all extract has a lil carapils in it to begin with (can you really not fit the 2lbs more grain? - Green Bay Rackers--Mash Calculators )

out of curiousity, why a FWH and 60min add?

I guess I could technically fit 2 more pounds of grain as my mashing pot is 20 quarts, but when I did 7.5 lbs. of grain in my last recipe it really seemed like that would be about the limit with stirring space (Not that I stir much, just to make sure there aren't doughballs etc.). According to that mash calculator 9.5 lbs of grain @ 1.25 qts./lb. will be 3.73 gallons. 3.73x4= 14.92 quarts, leaving me about 5 quarts of spare room.

While the numbers make sense, when I did 7.5 of grain@ 1.25 qts./lb. in my 20 quart mashing pot there really wasn't much room. Perhaps an experiment is in order. If you were to stick close to the grain bill I just posted but drop the carapils as you said, what would your grain bill look like with a total of 9.5 lbs? The carapils was mostly in consideration of mouthfeel and head retention.

As far as first wort hop and 60 minute addition, I've read many people that say a FWH does not take the place of a 60 minute addition, though some disagree.

Thank you for the input once again!

lowtones84 said:

As far as first wort hop and 60 minute addition, I've read many people that say a FWH does not take the place of a 60 minute addition, though some disagree.

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ha, guess i'm one of those. its still boiled 60mins so I dunno why it wouldnt, but only you can decide which side you believe. If I'm making a hoppy brew, I use FWH as my bittering cuz I like having my bittering hops add a lil more flavor.

you can certainly keep the carapils if you want, but the C60 does the same thing. IMO, its an over-used and unnecessary malt. plus your adding the flaked barley in there to do that as well so you don't really need both. the rye, like wheat, is great for head retention so that won't be an issue anyway.

I'd just sub in 2lbs of 2-row for the extract. I've done up to 12lbs in a 20qt pot (was to the brim) so I wouldn't expect you to have any issues. btw, if this isn't BIAB, make sure to add rice hulls.

Yeah, don't really need the carapils with the flaked barley and the rye and crystal.
Looks pretty good to me, I made several rye pale ales and IPA's over the summer, kept upping the rye % every time.....
I love Chinook with rye, and I have used Amarillo too (Founder's Reds Rye uses a ton of it)
I like to use FWH method, seems to be a "smoother" bittering than a straight 60 min addition, works well for certain recipes

Thanks guys, I really appreciate the help. I'm pretty new to formulating recipes and getting to know grains so all of your knowledge and experience is very helpful to me. So take out the carapils, mash a little higher, add a couple more pounds of 2 row (and another 8 oz. of rye perhaps since I'm taking out the carapils?) and take a closer look at my hop schedule? Dustbow, did you enjoy the Amarillo, or would you say go all Chinhook, even for flavor/aroma additions?

WLP 001 California Ale sound good? I've used it in other beers and found it to be pretty neutral and well attenuating.

If it turns out well maybe I'll drive a couple of bottles over to Cincy. Thanks again guys!

Amarillo vs Chinook is really just personal preference - totally different beers when using them for flavor additions. Do one now and the other later and see what you prefer.
Cheers

Brewing with a few modifications to the last recipe I posted. Wish me luck!

necrobump - how did this turn out?

what did the recipe end up looking like?

Whoa, definitely necro bump It turned out very well! It is, sadly, long gone now. The rye taste was a little light in my opinion but definitely there. One of my favorites in my short (2 year, 4 month) brewing career.

Recipe as far as my notes say was:

6 lbs. US 2 Row
2.5 lbs. Rye malt
8 oz. Flaked Barley
8 oz. Crystal 60L

.5 oz. Chinhook FWH
.5 oz. Chinhook, .5 oz. Amarillo @ 60
.5 oz. Amarillo @ 15
.5 oz. Amarillo @ Flameout

Unfortunately I wasn't keeping great notes at the time. Definitely single infusion mash for about 60 minutes, I think at about 150 F. My efficiency at the time wasn't great either, probably only around 70% brewhouse. I can't really think of anything else but if you have any specific questions you may jog my memory.

thanks for the reply

i'm going to brew an american rye in the next month or so

something like
70% 2row
30% malted rye

1-2oz mt hood at flameout - 30min hop stand

That sounds great, let me know how it turns out! It just so happens that I got a pound of Mt. Hood leaf hops in today! I like the look of the simple grain bill.

ive brewed with rye several times but always with a lot of hops - trying to get the rye to standout more with this one