Newcastle, Fuller's, secret ingredient?

I've tried cloning Newcastle. Part of the challenge is to obtain that characteristic sweet flavor it has hiding in there. I just drank a bottle version of Fuller's ESB, and I realize it has that same sort of flavor to it. I can't say exactly what it tastes like, but if you've had either of these beers, you likely know what I'm talking about. I'm wondering, what do you think creates this flavor? Is it the particular yeast they're using, or is there a specialty grain I haven't thought to try... ? Any ideas?

Have you checked out any of the clone recipes on here? BYO did a clone of this so that should probably be your first resource. BM did one as well based off that recipe but simplifying it some:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f67/aberdeen-brown-ale-newcastle-clone-ag-36912/

The sweetness in Fullers is simply British Crystal malt.

Gremlyn1 said:

The sweetness in Fullers is simply British Crystal malt.

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I don't think it's as simple as that. I use British crystal all the time and it doesn't have that taste. I think it's the British crystal after fermentation with their yeast. Combine the two and I think you'd get this. (Wyeast 1968). I've only used that yeast with a Mild recently though, so can't say for sure.

And, Fullers ESB *tastes* like it has much more crystal than it does, so be careful to not overdo it. Look up some recipes online.

Only way to get that sweet/plum aroma is to take your time and brew the Old Ale to mix with the Amber. That is whole secret to Newky. The BYO recipe calls for a 3:2 ratio, which leaves some Old Ale. I just rack this leftover into the smallest carboy I can find, and cover it with a cardboard box and let it get older, when I make my next Old Ale, I mix this "older ale" in the secondary. If you don't want to do that, you can just prime and bottle leftovers, each ale is a good ale by itself.

If it's not just crystal malt, then it's kettle caramelisation taking place. Yeast can't create sweetness.

Gremlyn1 said:

If it's not just crystal malt, then it's kettle caramelisation taking place. Yeast can't create sweetness.

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No, but it can change the perceived flavo(u)r of sweetness. I don't think anyone is claiming that the yeast creates the sweetness.

Could be a different base malt: Maris Otter, Optic, Golden Promise, Pearl, Halcyon. Of those I think Optic and Golden Promise are both UK malts known for "sweetness"

There's also water profile to consider.

On the Fuller's ESB.....It has a kind of orangey thing going on, I think that's the yeast rather than the malt.

Yeah, there's a particular "fruit, but not really fruity" thing that I've been trying to re-create in my milds/ESB's for a while now and it lies solely in the yeast.

My last batch I tried WLP022 with my best results yet, but it's still not what I remember from my pub visits while in UK.

Gremlyn1 said:

If it's not just crystal malt, then it's kettle caramelisation taking place. Yeast can't create sweetness.

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Yeast can affect the ultimate level of sugar present; less attenuating yeasts will leave more sugar behind than ones that are highly attenuating.

And sweetness isn't the same as sugar; yeasts can certainly produce sweeter tasting beers or less sweet tasting ones even with the same level of residual sugars left behind.

slowbie said:

No, but it can change the perceived flavo(u)r of sweetness. I don't think anyone is claiming that the yeast creates the sweetness.

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Agreed, yeast does not 'create' sweetness but it does bring out malt character in various ways. My US-04 bitter (english yeast) tastes MUCH sweeter than my us-05 bitter (american yeast). Same exact recipes. I also get a sort of - FULLER crystal malt character - if that makes sense, from the US-04. I am sure the same could be said about liquid british yeast strains.

I did a fullers-esque clone the other month and its starting to taste similar to the fullers.

I've made a clone using very small amounts of Black, Brown, and Chocolate malts with Wyeast 1098. I think part of the secret to the sweetness is the temp at serving. It's a very subtle range. Too cold and use lose the malty sweetness. Too warm and it starts to taste a little flat.

I think one of the reasons this can be a little hard to hit dead on is that Newcastle brown is a blend of 2 beers. One is produced commercially, and the other is produced just to blend to make the brown. I can't remember what the 2 beers are called though.

I thought the secret ingredient was 1000 island dressing....

No.....that's the Whopper. Two all be patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun.

SumnerH said:

Yeast can affect the ultimate level of sugar present; less attenuating yeasts will leave more sugar behind than ones that are highly attenuating.

And sweetness isn't the same as sugar; yeasts can certainly produce sweeter tasting beers or less sweet tasting ones even with the same level of residual sugars left behind.

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Well sure, attenuation will definitely dictate the level of sugar left over. Yeasts that leave more of a malt character I believe (just an educated guess) stop cleaving the maltose into two glucose molecules at a certain point, so the residual sugars are more maltose than it's monosaccharide components. And sweetness is absolutely the same as sugar... the type of sugar left over, whether it's been caramelised, and how much sugar the yeast didn't eat is all a part of the sweet flavour left over after fermentation. That's not to say that esters and other flavour/aroma compounds won't affect the perception of that sugar... I guess I wasn't very clear in my previous posts in what I read and what I said. That's what I get for posting as I fall asleep on the couch

Gremlyn1 said:

If it's not just crystal malt, then it's kettle caramelisation taking place. Yeast can't create sweetness.

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While it can't *create* sweetness, yeast can leave behind more sweetness. Which Fullers yeast definitely does. It's a low attenuator. And yeast certainly has a helluva lot to do with how the malt flavor comes through in the final beer.

Fuller's ESB uses only 3% crystal (as per The Real Ale Almanac, which admittedly could be out of date as it was written in 97, but I doubt the recipe has changed much). It *tastes* like it has way, way more than that though. They could be caramelizing, I have no idea. I'll ask them when next I see them if I can make the Great British Beer Festival in August. Last year they were pretty forthcoming about stuff. Anyone interested in Brit beer should attend if they can. It's loads of fun.

Gremlyn1 said:

And sweetness is absolutely the same as sugar.

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No, it isn't. Sugars are a very common source of sweetness, but sweetness is a flavor that many chemicals have. Saccharine, stevia, sucralose (Splenda), aspartame (Nutra Sweet/Equal), lead acetate, cyclamate, neotame, acesulfame potassium, and plenty of other common compounds are far sweeter than any sugar.

Aldehydes and ketones are also sweet substances that are non-sugars, and many yeasts can produce aldehydes.

Saying "sweetness is the same as sugar" is like saying "sour is the same as lemon".

MattHollingsworth said:

While it can't *create* sweetness, yeast can leave behind more sweetness. Which Fullers yeast definitely does. It's a low attenuator. And yeast certainly has a helluva lot to do with how the malt flavor comes through in the final beer.

Fuller's ESB uses only 3% crystal (as per The Real Ale Almanac, which admittedly could be out of date as it was written in 97, but I doubt the recipe has changed much). It *tastes* like it has way, way more than that though. They could be caramelizing, I have no idea. I'll ask them when next I see them if I can make the Great British Beer Festival in August. Last year they were pretty forthcoming about stuff. Anyone interested in Brit beer should attend if they can. It's loads of fun.

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Ooooh, where's that festival held? I'm planning on moving to Liverpool this Fall for school... Perhaps I should relocate a bit early so I can catch this?

Do Scottish & Newcastle/Heineken/whoever and Fuller's use Yorkshire Squares by any chance?

paint_it_black said:

Ooooh, where's that festival held? I'm planning on moving to Liverpool this Fall for school... Perhaps I should relocate a bit early so I can catch this?

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It's in London in early August.

http://gbbf.camra.org.uk/home

BUT, there are beer festivals in the UK throughout the year. While I haven't been to these others, here are some links:

St. Albans Beer Festival, Sept. 29-Oct. 2.

http://www.hertsale.org.uk/beerfest/

Nottingham Robin Hood Beer Festival, on the ground of Nottingham castle, October 14th to the 17th.

http://www.nottinghamcamra.org/

That Nottingham one looks to be bigger than the GBBF. Says they had 698 real ales last year, while GBBF is somewhere around 500. I made it through around 100 of them last year in 4 days. If you make it to one of the festivals, you'll see flyers around for a bunch of other festivals and people will tell you which ones they liked if they've been to any if you ask around. I heard that the St. Albans one is great.

BTW, for anyone who *does* wanna go to the GBBF, make sure to book some tutored tastings. I attended the Champion Beers of Britain tasting with Roger Protz and the Meet the Brewers one. The Meet the Brewers one is the best for homebrewers as you can then ask them questions. Basically, it's a large-ish room with maybe 60 or so guests and around 6 or so brewers or company owners or reps and they walk you through a tasting of their beer and take questions at the end. You don't get to ask a lot of questions, one if you're lucky or persistent, but it's a good chance to hear more about the beer. I managed to get a number of questions in and became "that guy" in the room who the brewers were commenting on because I was asking them technical questions. I mean, not overly technical, but brewing questions whereas the average drinkers in the room generally ask much simpler questions.

The Champion Beers of Britain has the winners of each of the categories, something around 8 or so and at the end they tell you who (already) won.

The Fullers rep was there and he answered questions pretty openly, for instance.

Last year, the tutored tastings were mostly sold out by sometime in late May, but then they added seats and opened them up again around July 1st. Just so you know.

I've only taken one shot at Fuller's: this recipe, NOT MINE, attributed to Larry Bristol. I definitely got the "sweet" flavor, but decided I didn't need to dry hop. I'll definitely do that next time. In his recipe, he kegs. I bottled. I like the beer fine, but it definitely needs more hops.

Fuller's ESB Clone

Beer Style: pale ale, bitter, E.S.B., Fuller's
Recipe Type all-grain
Description:
Fuller's ESB is by far and away my favorite (commercial) beer, and it has always been a high priority with me to find a way to clone it. Several attempts have brought forth some very pleasing beers, but they never quite matched up to the taste of the commercial variety.

Until the most recent attempt, that is! I think I have a very close clone on tap right now. I keg rather than bottle, and I am comparing this brew to the draught Fuller's that is available in the Houston area; I would suspect (hope, anyway) that the same recipe, if bottled, would be comparable to the bottled Fuller's ESB species.

Incidentally, I am just about 125% sure that Fuller's does *NOT* use centennials in their ESB. This recipe is not an attempt to duplicate their processing or ingredients, just the flavor of the finished product. So no flames about how this could not possibly be an authentic recipe, please! A reasonable substitute (and probably closer to reality) would be to use all fuggles (about 2.75 oz for equivalent bittering).
Ingredients:
12# British pale ale malt
1.5# British light carapils
1# British medium crystal
1oz Centennial hops (11.2% AA)
1oz British fuggles (4.0% AA)
0.25oz Kent Goldings (5.2% AA)
1/3 oz Burton water salts (treatment for very soft water)
Wyeast #1968 (London ESB)
OG: 1.060 FG: 1.016
Procedure:
Mash at 154F (high temp to promote dextrins) for 60 mins or until starch test negative. Sparge to collect 6 gallons. Boil for 20 minutes before hop addition. Boil centennials for 60 mins; add fuggles when 15 mins remain; goldings for dry hopping in secondary. I calculate the hop rate at 12.2 HBU.

kegged and force carbonated at 8psi/40F, tapping after 18 days. At first, I was concerned that the dry hops had given it too much of a hop character, certainly more than present on the target. But after a few more days, the hops had blended and softened quite a bit and seems to . be about right. If anything is wrong with the recipe, I think it gives a bit more body than Fuller's, so I will probably cut back slightly (maybe reduce the carapils from 1.5# to only 1#) next time. A
Submitted by: Larry Bristol

Thought I would revive this thread, as brewing our own Newky is the only place we’re going to get it again.

I believe there is more to the whole story.

It is my assertion that the sweet taste of the original Newcastle is from Coca Cola or Pepsi. I have always felt like there was more of a caramel characteristic to the taste, however caramel color was all that was admitted to being added.

Check this out, 4-MEI was the chemical in the caramel coloring that some people were so concerned about, the same chemical in the caramel coloring of Coke and Pepsi. Coke didn’t stop making Coke. Pepsi didn’t stop making Pepsi. They just found a different caramel color...but Newcastle had to completely change the beer! Why? Because the executives knew that if they ever got found out for using another trademarked flavor, they would get buried, and the 4-MEI mess was the perfect reason to extricate themselves from having a popular cola in their recipe once and for all.

Did they care that we all loved it? No! They were concerned with their company, and who could blame them really.

Anyways, I am beginning an experiment to prove my hypothesis. You can bet I will have a 2-liter bottle of Coke sitting next to my brew stand when I do my next Newky clone. The question is when to add it. Should it go in with the yeast? How about in a secondary? Perhaps it should be added to the boil.
I will keep this thread updated, and I will post the exact recipe that tastes exactly like the original Newky.

In the meantime, I have clone recipes for one brew, but I haven’t been able to find separate recipes for the original Newcastle dark ale or the original Newcastle amber ale that were blended. It would be great if someone could add those recipes if they have them.

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