Great read...regarding mashing

Can't argue with the sources. Great info here, folks.

Pay particular attention to #11.

http://www.draymans.com/articles/arts/14.html

Nice write-up, saved to favorites and #11 noted. Some people just like to work harder.

desertBrew said:

Nice write-up, saved to favorites and #11 noted. Some people just like to work harder.

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Yep me too. Thanks for posting it.

With the great excess of enzymes in modern malt, conversion can be achieved a lot faster than once believed (remember almost all fully modified malts are designed for big brewers with high cereal adjunct rates). The less time spent mashing the better. 20 Minutes maximum at conversion temperature. The underlying principal is to create maximum extraction with minimum grain contact time.

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Holy crap! NO WAY! That goes against everything I've read here and in my brewing books.

The often reputed advantages of thicker mashes are a lot of baloney. Enzymes might survive longer in thicker mashes but do less useful work – so what’s the point? Thinner mashes generally convert faster, have higher extract yield, and are less prone to darken. When mashing thinner cut back on sparge-water quantity to avoid over-extraction. Thicker mashes do cause more caramelization and Maillard reactions but is far less efficient than when the maltster creates it.

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I actually have been doing pretty thin mashes and not having a ton of sparge. I posted about it a while back... good to know I was doing something right

seefresh said:

Holy crap! NO WAY! That goes against everything I've read here and in my brewing books.

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A brewpub I frequent only does a 10-15 minute rest and then he does a 90 sparge. He states he's noticed no reduction in efficiency. I haven't tried that...

I have seen conversion in some of my malts (Briess Pale Ale Malt in particular) in about 20 minutes, but I was always to skittish (early on when I was using recipes with those malts) to just sparge and brew then (now though, I sparge as soon as conversion is ending).

I think for the homebrewer, it is sufficient to say when it is converted it is ready. If I see that conversion is nearing completion, I start the sparge knowing that by the time I am done sparging and my wort comes to temp it will have finished. You need a high dp malt though to make it happen that fast. I have seen conversion creep along because of malt choice and some of the European malts I can't seem to figure out what their dp is beforehand, which leads into the need for experience with a particular malt.

Unless you have a good feel for the malt you are using, it would be hard to anticipate how short of a time you could get away with. Unless I am misunderstanding, they are basically saying that you mash in and then immediately (or soon after) start the sparge, timing it so that by the time you boil you're fully converted.

It is a great find though, Dude. Thanks for that. Now we have some more ammo against the decoction purists

Of course, the short-rest approach requires that you have a fly-sparging setup, which I'm temped to explore anyway since my efficiency has been in the crapper lately...

the_bird said:

Of course, the short-rest approach requires that you have a fly-sparging setup, which I'm temped to explore anyway since my efficiency has been in the crapper lately...

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That sucks. My setup gives me roughly mid 80's on a normal range OG. I have been really happy with it. I think I am going to give the short-rest a try on my next batch of APA, whenever that will be.... Gotta brew...no time.

the_bird said:

Of course, the short-rest approach requires that you have a fly-sparging setup, which I'm temped to explore anyway since my efficiency has been in the crapper lately...

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Isn't the short rest based on conversion? So why does it matter if you batch or fly sparge?

What is the best method to test conversion? I've seen Iodine but had trouble determining the color.

Todd said:

Isn't the short rest based on conversion? So why does it matter if you batch or fly sparge?

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yea, what he said... If conversions done in 20 minutes, its done, no? Then how ever you sparge effects rinsing the sugars, right?

I only skimmed the article, but the impression that I got was that the bulk of conversion occurs in the first 15 minutes, but that it finished out during the sparge. Correct me if I'm wrong.

If that's the case, I can't only convert for 15 minutes and then batch sparge, since I'm essentially doing a mash-out by using sparge water that's hot enough to denature the enzymes.

It says 20 minutes mash time MAX for complete conversion, with the modern malts.

Fair enough.

Still not sure that I would trust to do only 20 minutes, though (and I'm usually busy doing other things at the time, anyway). I'd have more comfort taking the shorter approach if I were fly sparging and knew there was "extra" time for conversion to finish up anyway.

It's not clear to me what the disadvantage is of a longer mash - he says that less contact time with the grain is better, but I'm not sure why...

I'm brewing this weekend and I'm going to try this short mash. I will test with iodine to ensure conversion. I'll let you all know how it goes.


Dan

the_bird said:

Fair enough.

Still not sure that I would trust to do only 20 minutes, though (and I'm usually busy doing other things at the time, anyway). I'd have more comfort taking the shorter approach if I were fly sparging and knew there was "extra" time for conversion to finish up anyway.

It's not clear to me what the disadvantage is of a longer mash - he says that less contact time with the grain is better, but I'm not sure why...

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Just a couple ideas, may be way off base here. Longer it soaks the more "grain" you get? More of the stuff you're trying to keep out of your beer? He mentions a thicker mash causing a darker color, maybe soaking for too long could do this as well?

the_bird said:

It's not clear to me what the disadvantage is of a longer mash - he says that less contact time with the grain is better, but I'm not sure why...

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It isn't that long of a read....#7 clearly states this. Shorter mash, less contact time with oxygen, less chance of polyphenols and oxidized qualities in the wort.

It talks in hours though--which I guess wouldn't apply to most of us.

But still--the point of the short mash times is that the super modified malts jsut don't need that long to convert.

I guess if it makes you feel better, keep mashing for 60-90 minutes. Just makes for a longer brew day!

Dude said:

It isn't that long of a read....#7 clearly states this. Shorter mash, less contact time with oxygen, less chance of polyphenols and oxidized qualities in the wort.

It talks in hours though--which I guess wouldn't apply to most of us.

But still--the point of the short mash times is that the super modified malts jsut don't need that long to convert.

I guess if it makes you feel better, keep mashing for 60-90 minutes. Just makes for a longer brew day!

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Yes, it mentions that as we pour our grains into our MT from the top, that it traps air in the husks so less time in contact with the grains, less oxygen. At least thats what i got from it, and I think it makes sense.


Dan

It usually takes me at least 30-40 to heat up my sparge water. Don't think I'll be able to cut it short right now because of that and no HLT so I have to use the same brewpot to heat my strike and sparge water. Probably not a big deal, but still cool to know that when I can have sparge and strike water ready I can reduce my brew time. Allow for multiple brews in the same day

From personal exp. I can say that when I rushed a sparge (25min) as opposed to my normal time (60) I noticed conciderably less Eff. I am used to getting around 75% to 82% from my AG brewing techniques but the time my inlaws were coming over and i hurried the sparge I only reached 55% Eff.

Rev JC - batch or fly sparge? I'd think that if not complete the slower fly would probably address that. I'm not sure if I'll ever try 20 but an interesting conversation. I like that 60 minute time window for prep, coffee, HBT.

EDIT - you stated rushed a sparge, not rest... so I assume fly was your rush then.

Another question, won't conversion continute in the bk?

Todd said:

Another question, won't conversion continute in the bk?

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Yup, it should, unless you've done a mash-out.

Willsellout said:

Yes, it mentions that as we pour our grains into our MT from the top, that it traps air in the husks so less time in contact with the grains, less oxygen. At least thats what i got from it, and I think it makes sense.


Dan

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I guess that's what I don't get, or that I'm not convinced about, the amount of air that's actually trapped by the husks. I tend to add a little water, add some grain, stir, add some more water, add some more grain, stir - and I stir enough where I'm pretty sure the amount of air that's left in the mash is pretty minimal. Could be wrong, though, maybe there's more than I think.

the_bird said:

I guess that's what I don't get, or that I'm not convinced about, the amount of air that's actually trapped by the husks. I tend to add a little water, add some grain, stir, add some more water, add some more grain, stir - and I stir enough where I'm pretty sure the amount of air that's left in the mash is pretty minimal. Could be wrong, though, maybe there's more than I think.

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Yeah I do the same thing..who knows though. There's no real way to tell. My beer still comes out good and I have no problems with stability so it can't be too much


Dan

Is the KMS he talks about in #7 Potassium Meta-bisulphate? Might have to try that out.

Chairman Cheyco said:

Is the KMS he talks about in #7 Potassium Meta-bisulphate? Might have to try that out.

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I was wondering the same thing. Sounds right.

Chairman Cheyco said:

Is the KMS he talks about in #7 Potassium Meta-bisulphate? Might have to try that out.

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That's my guess. As a winemaker, one of the purposes for using K meta is to minimize oxidation during transfer. 20-30 ppm is a small amount- but then comes another question- would all the so2 be boiled off during the boil? If not, does it inhibit ale yeast? If so, then what purpose does it serve? (oops- that's three questions!)

I used the short mash and thinner mash technique, 30 minute mash and 1.5 quarts water per pound of grain batch sparged. My efficiency stayed the same and it made ok beer but they all finished on the high side FG wise. On beers with more specialty grains it seemed that I was missing the flavors from them. I did some psuedo lagers a couple of pale ales, scottish 60 and an IPA, they are good but not any better then when I used a thicker mash and a 60 minute rest. Now I'm trying the other extreme, I'm doing a 90 minute mash with 1.2 quarts water per pound of grain. I've done two beers so far and both finished on target FG wise and they have better flavor.

Denny Conn mentioned that while conversion may be complete in 20 minutes it takes longer to break down the sugars to a more fermentible wort hence the high FGs I experienced. But by all means give it a try, in my experience it work very well with batch sparging, like I said no loss of efficiency.

Waldo said:

Denny Conn mentioned that while conversion may be complete in 20 minutes it takes longer to break down the sugars to a more fermentible wort hence the high FGs I experienced. But by all means give it a try, in my experience it work very well with batch sparging, like I said no loss of efficiency.

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100% true.

Longer mash times = shorter chains = lower FG.

I'm guessing I'm gonna continue doing what I'm doing.
Thinner mash.
60 minutes.
Sparge to a 1.005-1.010 gravity.

Boy though, I'd sure love to look into a sparge arm.

Any DIY threads here?

http://www.draymans.com/articles/arts/02.html

give your kids beer. i've been saying this for years, but continue to get wierd looks...

great site dude!!!!

Waldo said:

Denny Conn mentioned that while conversion may be complete in 20 minutes it takes longer to break down the sugars to a more fermentible wort hence the high FGs I experienced. But by all means give it a try, in my experience it work very well with batch sparging, like I said no loss of efficiency.

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Just playing devils advocate here

I thought conversion technically was the breakdown of the longer chains. How could conversion be complete in 20 minutes and still have long chains of sugars?

If this document is really from weisenstaphen(sp?) university in Germany don't you think they ran test after test on this to achieve their results? Obviously if one of us lowly homebrewers try a short mash and don't get the same results, maybe there is another factor we aren't thinking about or we aren't using the most modern/modified malts. Like the short sparge Reverand_JC mentioned, wouldn't that effect how many sugars were rinsed and effect the OG? Where its easy to blame the short mash, I think, maybe, there are other issues at hand, dude. She kidnapped herself, man.

Conversion is complete when all the starches have been converted to sugars, but there are still many long-chain sugars that have several glucose molecules in the wort. These long chain sugars are broken down into shorter chain sugars by beta amylase over time. Generally, the fewer molecules, the more fermentable the sugar (thats why starch is unfermentable and corn sugar, one glucose molecule, is entirely fermentable). Hope that helps.

mew said:

Conversion is complete when all the starches have been converted to sugars, but there are still many long-chain sugars that have several glucose molecules in the wort. These long chain sugars are broken down into shorter chain sugars by beta amylase over time. Generally, the fewer molecules, the more fermentable the sugar (thats why starch is unfermentable and corn sugar, one glucose molecule, is entirely fermentable). Hope that helps.

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Very much so, learn something new everyday!

Actually I tried it on several beers, I had the best results using US 2-row and worst using Maris Otter. If saving 30 or 60 minutes on brew day is important to you then by all means give it a try it does work, I just wasn't that impressed.

the kms addition might be more of a wiiner, i can see the logic of this.
That said though, one of the reasons i think we homebrew is to keep the addition of additives etc to a minimum, who knows it could be the KMS in commercial beer that makes you feel like crap the next day (hard to tell though when the companies won't tell you what actual other stuff they are adding).

I've cut my mash times down from 90 minutes to 60 minutes and it's not affected my efficiency or my fermentability.

I can now brew in under 4 hours without rushing.

That's more than enough of a reason for me to have a short mash time. If I'm doing other things then I'll mash longer if it suits.

I use UK 2 row. Maris otter.

60 minutes is pretty standard on this side of the pond.