Coopers doesn't mention secondary

Hello,
I just bought a can of "Coopers Bitter". When I read the instructions it does not mention a secondary fermentor. It just says to leave in the primary for 4-6 days and then bottle. SHould I put it in secondary?
Thanks in advance.

4-6 days??? That can of extract is trying to make you fail.

Let it ferment until it's done and the krauesen (foam on top) has dropped to the bottom. Then wait 2-3 more weeks. No need for secondary. Crash cool if you can (meaning put the fermenter in a fridge or in an icewater bath for a few days), then bottle.

It won't because those kits are basic.

They want you to be able to have success in a small time-frame with minimal equipment.

Bitter is a style of beer that argueably does not require bright tank time (secondary).

It's all up to you.

And by success, I mean made a beer. Not necessarily the best beer you can make. cf Evan!

Coopers kits have useless instructions.

they have you add 2 lbs of sugar too!

I'd let it sit in primary a full 3 weeks, then rack and bottle it.

it will taste better if you add the 2 pounds of sugar or dextrose instead of getting convinced you've got to add malt extract - if you add malt extract instead it won't taste like beer it will taste like malt extract.

And the beer will be done in 4-6 days if you ferment at the temperature they tell you too. Cooper's instructions work just fine, the only thing I would modify is keep the temperature lower than what they suggest unless you like hot alcohol flavored beer.

Also, stick with the simple kilo of extra fermentables like the brewing sugar or the dextrose - DME or LME will throw the flavor of the beer off balance and it won't taste right - if you're averse to using sugar and you're just determined to add malt extract instead then don't use Light DME or LME like is often suggested - just get two Cooper's kits and brew 6 gallons with 2 cans. Even Cooper's Brew Enhancer 1 and Brew Enhancer 2 is mostly dextrose with only a little extra DME - if you make the whole kilo DME it will be all ****ed up out of balance.

And no I totally wouldn't bother with putting a Cooper's kit in the secondary. If you bought their beer making kit it came with a hydrometer - use it and when its the same 2-3 days in a row you're done - bottle it and don't trouble yourself with a secondary. It will clear up just fine in the bottles while it carbonates.

Don't fall for the Cooper's kits have useless instructions line - the instructions are fool proof and designed to guarantee you easy success, be careful with the temperature when you ferment, don't let someone convince you that you need to use DME or something instead of the brewing sugar, keep everything clean and you can't miss.

Also, it might interest some of you to know that when Cooper's kits suggest a kilo of sugar - they aren't talking about white table sugar - the brewing sugar that they sell to go with the kits won't be cidery like you're thinking.

I usually brew a Cooper's kit each time I do an All Grain batch and they turn out just fine if you keep them clean and cool and don't get tripped up with the bad advice like use 2#s of DME instead of the sugar. 2#s of dextrose or rice syrup - yeah that'll be fine. 2#s of DME and it will be too sweet to enjoy and not crisp at all, you might like that if you're making their stout kit or something but It won't be good in Cooper's Bitter - stick with the kilo of Cooper's Brewing sugar.

Mutilated1 said:

it will taste better if you add the 2 pounds of sugar or dextrose instead of getting convinced you've got to add malt extract - if you add malt extract instead it won't taste like beer it will taste like malt extract.

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You do realize that beer is made from malted grain...that sugar is an adjunct, and should only be added to appropriate beer styles?

That many people only use sugar to prime the bottles, NEVER in their wort, unless its a saison or an american light lager?

add 2 lbs of sugar and you'll thin out the beer because sugar ferments completely while malt extract leaves behind some malt flavor and adds to the body of the beer. add 2.5 lbs of malt extract and you'll have just as much alcohol, but more flavor and more body to the beer.

My first two batches were 6 gallons with 2 cans of coopers. The first was one can of bitter and one can of dark ale. It is really dark, but it's really good now that it has aged for a while (although not the right style for a hot summer day). It was really hoppy and syrupy at 3 weeks, but has mellowed out a lot since then.

The second was one can of bitter and one can of real ale. I just bottled it last week so i can't make a final judgement, but it tasted pretty good at bottling. It's also a perfect colour. I have some in a newcastle brown ale bottle (clear bottle), and the colour is pretty close to the original. I can't wait.

You do realize that beer is made from malted grain...that sugar is an adjunct, and should only be added to appropriate beer styles?

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Yes, I realize that. You do realize that Cooper's is an actual brewery that no doubt has brewed much more beer than you or I have ?

Bottom line is, its their recipe - they put whats in the can in the can in the first place. If you read the instructions they will plainly tell you whats suggested to add and its not 2#s of DME.

Make it however you want, no skin off my nose - I drink a lot of these, I'm just passing on what tastes good and what doesn't - and the typical 'wisdom' that gets passed out on these forums about don't use sugar - well it doesn't taste good.

add 2.5 lbs of malt extract and you'll have just as much alcohol, but more flavor and more body to the beer.

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Yeah and it will have such an overpowering sickly sweet malty falvor with no hops to balance it out and you won't want to drink it.

1# of DME in one of those Cooper's kits is a lot - 2# or more and you definitely will not drink it - maybe in one of their Brewmaster's Series where you're recommended to Add 1.5 Kilo of Their LME, but in their basic kits - I'm telling you it doesn't taste good - its waayyyy over malty.

Mutilated1 said:

Yes, I realize that. You do realize that Cooper's is an actual brewery that no doubt has brewed much more beer than you or I have ?

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Wow, that's a bit of a hostile tone. Budweiser is a brewery too and I don't use their instructions either.

Back to the OP. I have to cast my vote for the good advice you got from Evan!, OlllllO, and Malkore. There are tons of bad instructions out there but you've come to a good place to get good instructions and you've gotten it. In the end, it's your beer and you can make it how you like but following good brewing practices is NEVER a bad idea. Bottling any brew at 6 days is a really bad idea! Also, adding a couple pounds of sugar will get you beer but so will fermenting bread and fruit in a toilet but it doesn't make it GOOD beer.

Sorry - not trying to be hostile - I apologize if it came across that way.

I'm just trying to prevent someone from being led astray by the conventional wisdom which is quite wrong in this case.

I've made a ton of these Cooper's kits, the first couple I made with 2#s of brewing sugar or 2# of Rice Syrup and then I started listening to the "Use 2#s of DME instead crowd" ( most of which I bet don't even brew can kits anymore ) and I made several sweet yucky batches that weren't fit to drink before I figured out to ignore the advice on the forum and make it according to the directions on the can.

But hey make it however you like.

i don't get it...DME doesn't taste good? it's grain extract. it's the same thing you do with all-grain. do you add sugar to your all-grain batches?

do a side by side batch, one with dme and one with sugar. they'll be two different beers and you may like the one with sugar, but youre certainly not going to hurt things using the same ingredients that's been in beer thousands of years before coopers opened.

EDIT: I don't see how it ended up sweet and yucky from the dme, either. dme should ferment out just fine and give nice malt flavor. sounds like the problem was with something in your process or your dme brand choice.

Mutilated1 said:

Yes, I realize that. You do realize that Cooper's is an actual brewery that no doubt has brewed much more beer than you or I have ?

Bottom line is, its their recipe - they put whats in the can in the can in the first place. If you read the instructions they will plainly tell you whats suggested to add and its not 2#s of DME.

Make it however you want, no skin off my nose - I drink a lot of these, I'm just passing on what tastes good and what doesn't - and the typical 'wisdom' that gets passed out on these forums about don't use sugar - well it doesn't taste good.



Yeah and it will have such an overpowering sickly sweet malty flavor with no hops to balance it out and you won't want to drink it.

1# of DME in one of those Cooper's kits is a lot - 2# or more and you definitely will not drink it - maybe in one of their Brewmaster's Series where you're recommended to Add 1.5 Kilo of Their LME, but in their basic kits - I'm telling you it doesn't taste good - its waayyyy over malty.

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In my 13 plus years of home brewing, you are the first person I've ever heard suggest that adding sugar to the wort will make the beer better. There are some exceptions to this like some Belgian beers but for most extract kits that are made, adding sugar does not make the beer better. You are incorrect to state that adding more DME or LME will make the beer taste like extract. Malt extract will ferment out nicely and not give the beer a malty sweet flavor. It will provide more malt flavor for sure which makes the beer better to most home brewers. It WILL NOT make the beer sweet.
I think your taste in beer is different than many home brewers and for you that is fine. Don't assume though that everyone wants to brew thinner beers.

What I am suggesting is that following the instructions when you make a Cooper's kit is the best way to proceed. Some of their kits call for DME, some do not. In this case, I assume we are talking about the Cooper's Bitter kit which according to the instructions doesn't call for DME, it calls for Cooper's Brewing Sugar.

If you make it with DME, it will not be a Bitter and it will not taste good. With 2#s of DME it will be a liquid malt bomb not a bitter.

If you've made the kit with 2#s of DME before - raise your hand. Am I the only one with a hand raised ? Thought so. I'm telling you will not want to drink it. This kit is much better when you stick to the suggested 2#s Brewing sugar.

In your 13 plus years of brewing, did you ever read any of Charlie Papazian's books ? If you had you'd see I'm not the first person to suggest adding sugar.

Anyway, you guys do what you like - I'm in a bad mood today anyway, so I'm done with the convo 'cause I don't want to get everyone upset about something so stupid and silly,

You all have a nice day. Cheers.

yes i've read them, and i would say that charlie papazian's older books are pretty outdated. adding sugar is appropriate some places and i would even say that a bitter could use some sugar to lighten the body.

i just think you're mistaken on it being "sweet and yucky." it doesn't make sense...it would give it more of a full body, maltier flavor, but many bitters are made with all grain. i very rarely see bitter recipe with sugar and most bitter recipes are mashed high to give them a nice malt flavor to give them a full flavor with a small amount of alcohol.

if the brewing sugar is not just dextrose, which would give it that cidery flavor, then that would help, but it's still sugar and not made from malt.

again, i think you probably had a different problem. no worries, just don't dismiss everyone else's opinion because you have a different preference and had a bad experience once.

The Complete Joy of Home Brewing is the first book I read about the hobby. I have read it cover to cover many times. I still use it to this day for reference. Here's how my first copy looks.


Here's an excerpt from the chapter on adjuncts. I'll use corn sugar as it is the most common sugar used in home brewing:

"The addition of corn sugar to home brew recipes will lighten the body and flavor of the beer and at the same time contribute to the alcohol content. Its use in excess of 20 percent of the total fermentable sugars will often contribute to the flavor characteristics of the finished beer, lending what most home brewers will refer to as a dry "cidery" flavor. While some desire this character, it does not contribute to a true malt beer character. Its use, although economical, should be carefully considered by the home brewer who values the time spent brewing and waiting for beer to mature and be fully enjoyed"

This is on page 84 of the newest edition of the book.

I'm not sure what is in the Coopers Brewing Sugar but I'm betting it isn't much different than corn sugar. If I remember right Coopers extract is about 3.3 pounds. If you add 2 pounds of sugar to the wort that would be over 37 percent of the total fermentables. Way more than the 20 percent maximum Charlie recommends.
Now I'm not saying you are wrong for adding sugar to your brews. If that's the way you like your beers then that's good for you. What I am saying though is that most home brewers make beer because they enjoy beers with more flavor and mouth feel. You just can't get that if you add sugar.
OK Enough of that. Let's agree to disagree.

You know, if the manufacturer says add 100% fermentables (i.e., sugar and not DME), maybe it is because the manufacturer includes an appropriate amount of non-fermentables to flavor the beer properly all by itself. That, in fact, seems pretty likely to me. I don't understand why people who have never used a product chime in with opinions, contrary to those of the manufacturer, as to how to better use that product.

jhs said:

You know, if the manufacturer says add 100% fermentables (i.e., sugar and not DME), maybe it is because the manufacturer includes an appropriate amount of non-fermentables to flavor the beer properly all by itself. That, in fact, seems pretty likely to me. I don't understand why people who have never used a product chime in with opinions, contrary to those of the manufacturer, as to how to better use that product.

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Maybe Coopers is gearing there product to folks who like lighter bodied beer. I can tell you that I have brewed with Coopers extract and I added 2 pounds of DME every time and made some very good beers. One of the best extract brews I made used Coopers Draft extract.

I will not knock someone who chooses to add sugar to their wort. I'm just saying that it isn't for most home brewers.

Here's the Coopers web site that explains what is in their brewing sugar.
http://www.coopers.com.au/homebrew/hbrew.php?pid=7
It is basically dextrose (corn sugar) and maltodextrin. Maltodextrin from my understanding is already in malt extract and gives the beer better head retention and mouth feel.

Anyone out there want to do a side by side taste test? Brew 2 batches. One with DME added and one with Coopers brewing sugar. See which one makes the better beer. I'll volunteer to be a taste tester!

Quite frankly I think it comes down to personal taste. As someone who also has made dozens of coppers kits I tend to agree partially with mutulated. I have made those kits with all malt extract and no sugar and they turned out way too malty sweet for me. I on the oher hand have made the kits with only dextrose and no malt and I found the beer to be a bit too thin.

Mutilated is quite right though - you can produce good beer following the coopers instructions and adding just dextrose. Personally I add a mix of dextrose and malt extract.

I think why mutilated may have been fustrated is people telling he is wrong who have not even tried making a cooper kit in their life. Alot of guys know the theory behind brewing and make great all grains and custom kits but the pre hopped no boils are a different beast. Mutilated isnt making it up when he says using all dme makes the beer too sweet and out of balance - I find the same thing. I dont know why it is - im just a casual beer maker - so im not sure about the science - my theory is that the ammount of hopps included in the can isnt measued to take into account the addition of all malt extract. I dont even know if that makes sense lol

Anyway I guess what im trying to say dont be scared to experiment thats half the fun - there is no right way or wrong way to make he kits - its what ever tastes good to you. Me and mutilated find that all DME makes it way sweet and out of balance - others may like it? That being said it can be a little fustrating sometimes when people who have never made a coopers kit in their life insist they know the best way to make them

cheers

Hi. I'm Kurt. Jeep fanatic, beer enthusiast and photographer.

I ordered a starter kit from mountian home brew, that arrived yesterday. I am gathering up stuff today, to make sure I have all I need to start it up this evening.

With my kit came a 3.75lb can of hopped extract (with a wee envelope of yeast), a 3.1lb can of unhopped extract, and about 4oz of corn sugar (i assume for carbonating). Reading their website, it indicates using 500g Light Dry Malt + 300g Dextrose with the can of hopped. Mountain Brew stated that they had everything I needed for my first batch.

So, I suppose my question is: Am I supposed to substitute a portion or all of the unhopped wheat extract (both are wheat kits) for dme and dextrose?

Man, am ever I confused.


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PoorBoy said:

So, I suppose my question is: Am I supposed to substitute a portion or all of the unhopped wheat extract (both are wheat kits) for dme and dextrose?

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Hi Kurt, no the wheat extract is fine. DME stands for Dry Malt Extract - what they're suggesting is to use some form of malt extract instead of a lot of sugar. Your canned unhopped wheat extract is LME (liquid malt extract) which is just another form of extract. It sounds like your kit is fine.

What lots of us are down on is kits that include sugar/dextrose as a large part (over 30%) of the fermentable sugars.

PoorBoy said:

Hi. I'm Kurt. Jeep fanatic, beer enthusiast and photographer.

I ordered a starter kit from mountian home brew, that arrived yesterday. I am gathering up stuff today, to make sure I have all I need to start it up this evening.

With my kit came a 3.75lb can of hopped extract (with a wee envelope of yeast), a 3.1lb can of unhopped extract, and about 4oz of corn sugar (i assume for carbonating). Reading their website, it indicates using 500g Light Dry Malt + 300g Dextrose with the can of hopped. Mountain Brew stated that they had everything I needed for my first batch.

So, I suppose my question is: Am I supposed to substitute a portion or all of the unhopped wheat extract (both are wheat kits) for dme and dextrose?

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Hi Kurt, welcome to HBT!
Sounds like your LHBS is looking after you and put your kit together quite nicely. I would use the whole can of unhopped in place of the dme and dextrose the website directs you to use.

I would mix and add the water that the directions indicate but please ignore the directions if they say your beer will be ready to bottle in 3 - 7 days. Give it 2 or 3 weeks in the primary. If you have an hydrometer, use it. Please jump in and ask questions if you have them. Start a new thread if you need to ask questions so they don't get lost in an old thread.

ifishsum said:

Hi Kurt, no the wheat extract is fine. DME stands for Dry Malt Extract - what they're suggesting is to use some form of malt extract instead of a lot of sugar. Your canned unhopped wheat extract is LME (liquid malt extract) which is just another form of extract. It sounds like your kit is fine.

What lots of us are down on is kits that include sugar/dextrose as a large part (over 30%) of the fermentable sugars.

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Nurmey said:

Hi Kurt, welcome to HBT!
Sounds like your LHBS is looking after you and put your kit together quite nicely. I would use the whole can of unhopped in place of the dme and dextrose the website directs you to use.

I would mix and add the water that the directions indicate but please ignore the directions if they say your beer will be ready to bottle in 3 - 7 days. Give it 2 or 3 weeks in the primary. If you have an hydrometer, use it. Please jump in and ask questions if you have them. Start a new thread if you need to ask questions so they don't get lost in an old thread.

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thanks fellas. i was going to let it sit in there for a while, and i do have a hydrometer (i realize newbs may not need it, but if i ever made undrinkable beer, i'd cry myself to sleep).

thanks for all the help, i'll start it up this evening!

PoorBoy said:

thanks fellas. i was going to let it sit in there for a while, and i do have a hydrometer (i realize newbs may not need it, but if i ever made undrinkable beer, i'd cry myself to sleep).

thanks for all the help, i'll start it up this evening!

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I'm NOT a fella!

Jesus, such hot beer opionions in here.

I am brand new to the game as well. I made the Cooper's Dark Ale as per instructions for my first batch ever. No secondary, nothing like that.

A can of Cooper's is the easiest way to make beer, and a great way to learn crucial parts of the home brewing process. It's a beginner's forum......you don't have to spew out all your personal brewing teories out on this thread. He just wanted to know if you need a secondary for Cooper's. The answer is no.

As a noob myself, I can safely speak for other noobs in saying that homebrewing isan intimidating process. The main reson we are in here is for basic, simple advice and to hear the occasional "don't worry about it, your batch will be fine."

Insted of arguing about how much you love or hate the instructions of Cooper's, why don't you try helping a new guy out.

Again, I made my first batch ever using the Cooper's dark ale, and followed the instructions. Everything has gone as expected so far.

Just an update... I made this kit.. put it in the secondary.. drank all of it.... nothing compared to other kits I make (Brewhouse, festabrew)... I used the dextrose like it said.. and well... I didnt find it very good.. I may try one again but I think Ill try it with DME..

Nurmey said:

I'm NOT a fella!

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if you own a jeep as well as brew your own beer....

now, more on the secondary. my primary is a 6.5g carboy, and i do have a 5g secondary, and was wondering if i would receive any benefit from racking it in there after a week or so in the primary? again, i'm working with the Coopers Wheat. also, i was going to put in a little raspberry extract. not so much as to make it sweet, like SA cherry wheat, but lighter, like Abita Purple haze. this was my biggest reason for considering the secondary, i was going to put the extract in that, rather than wait until bottling. insight?