Another spa for wort

I don't understand do I make the spa panel or does it come pre made. For 1 220-volt element is 50 amp GFCI too high they come pre made in this size right. Do I just install a GFCI breaker in the box and run that to an outlet or do I need a sub panel I don't understand I just have one element and one PID

You buy a spa panel with a 50A GFCI breaker already installed from HomeDepot/etc and you run it to a 30A standard breaker in your box. The whole purpose of the spa panels is to get GFCI without having to spend over $100 for just a 30A GFCI breaker for your panel, which is also another option and the one i went with...requires less wiring and was only another $20 or so for me total and worth it not to have to wire and mount another box.

FuzzeWuzze said:

You buy a spa panel with a 50A GFCI breaker already installed from HomeDepot/etc and you run it to a 30A standard breaker in your box. The whole purpose of the spa panels is to get GFCI without having to spend over $100 for just a 30A GFCI breaker for your panel, which is also another option and the one i went with...requires less wiring and was only another $20 or so for me total and worth it not to have to wire and mount another box.

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thank you so much.... am I missing something those boxes don't seem cheap either. So you did GFCI breaker to an outlet or did you make a box of some kind

Also 50 amp will fry before I fry right because I think the system is less than 25

applescrap said:

Also 50 amp will fry before I fry right because I think the system is less than 25

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The circuit breaker (the 50A part) protects the wiring from getting too hot, but only if the wiring is rated to carry the amp rating of the circuit breaker (or higher.) It does not protect you. It's the ground fault circuit interrupter that protects you. It will trip with just a few milliamps of fault current.

Brew on

applescrap said:

thank you so much.... am I missing something those boxes don't seem cheap either. So you did GFCI breaker to an outlet or did you make a box of some kind

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it depends on how you want to wire the system but also the rating of your heating elements. assuming a 5500 watt element running at 240 volts, most guys who use a spa panel will install a 30 amp, 2-pole 'regular' circuit breaker in their panelboard. from there, they will run #10 awg conductors to a 50 amp gfci spa panel. from the spa panel, it is another set of #10 conductors to a 30 amp receptacle, something like this:



the receptacle is sold as 'naked' and needs to be placed in a box of some type. a single-gang box will work but is typically a very tight space to install the receptacle and terminate all the conductors. often, a two-gang box is used (twice as wide as a single-gang). below is a single-gang installation:



and this is a two-gang installation:



from the receptacle, it is a cord to your brewing panel. some guys omit the 30 amp receptacle and run the conductors directly from the spa panel to the brewery panel.

all of the above assumes a single 5500 watt, 240 volt element. if you have a 4500 watt, 240 volt element, many folks wire that up with a 20 amp breaker and #12 awg conductors. some smaller elements are 120 volt as well. different situations call for different installation techniques.

it really depends on your setup... if your main breaker box is nearby it makes more sense to just spend extra for a 30a gfci breaker but if not there are advantages to having a sub box with a main disconnect in your brew area... for me this made more sense because my main box is in a closet on the first floor and my brew room is upstairs. also from what I have read the GFCI breaker should be close to the actual load being protected (main reason spa boxes have to be within 10 ft of the spa where I live)
anyway I use the spa breaker as a main power switch to kill my whole setup when not in use...
As others have mentioned the breaker has to be sized for the circuit not the load and the GFCI function works the same regardless of the size. My 50A spa box was $60 at the home depot were a single gfci breaker for my main box was $100... remember the style of breaker vary and they are not all compatible with each other... there are different types of ways they latch onto the main buss bars inside the box... you need to make sure you have the correct type of breaker or it just wont fit.

augiedoggy said:

also from what I have read the GFCI breaker should be close to the actual load being protected (main reason spa boxes have to be within 10 ft of the spa where I live)

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must be a local amendment, this is not a nec requirement. the main reason for having the spa panel 'close' is that it serves as the maintenance disconnecting means and doesn't have anything to do with the protective operating characteristics of the gfci. the disconnect doesn't need to be the spa panel (e.g. could be an additional, separate switch) but is typically what is used. the disconnect (spa panel) needs to be within sight of the equipment being disconnected, which is defined as less than 50 feet. this is so service folks can easily see that the equipment is shutoff. nec actually dictates a minimum distance of 5' from the disconnect to the walls of the spa, pool, hot tub, etc. (so the disconnect must be located between 5 and 50 feet away)

Thank you gentlemen very much. So 30 amp 2 pole in panel wired to a $60 50 amp GFCI spa box from Home Depot and then wired to the plug. Yes I am running 5000 element 240. what about putting the plug in the spa box? Also I open my panel and it seems the negatives and the grounds share the same bus bar and it's full the plug coming out of my PID and going to element is 3 wire or at least 3 pin and the main power plug for the PID is for prong

So questions are I guess
Do I wire 3 wires to Spa panel from main and 4 wires from spa panel to plug or wire 4 wires from main to spa and 4 wire to receptacle
Also plug in box
Thanks again guys

applescrap said:

Thank you gentlemen very much. So 30 amp 2 pole in panel wired to a $60 50 amp GFCI spa box from Home Depot and then wired to the plug. Yes I am running 5000 element 240. what about putting the plug in the spa box? Also I open my panel and it seems the negatives and the grounds share the same bus bar and it's full the plug coming out of my PID and going to element is 3 wire or at least 3 pin and the main power plug for the PID is for prong

So questions are I guess
Do I wire 3 wires to Spa panel from main and 4 wires from spa panel to plug or wire 4 wires from main to spa and 4 wire to receptacle
Also plug in box
Thanks again guys

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do you have a brew panel with pids or pump controls? do you need 120 volt as well? if you need 120 volt, you will need four conductors between you main panel, spa panel and your receptacle: two hots, one neutral and one ground. if you ONLY need 240 volt, you will only need three conductors from the spa panel to the receptacle: two hots and one ground. you MAY need four conductors from your main panel to the spa panel, however. some gfci breakers need a neutral connection back to the main panel to operate properly. my advice would be to pull four conductors between your main panel and the spa panel.

it is possible to install the receptacle in the spa panel but you would need to cut an opening into the panel. also, consider space, it may be a tight squeeze inside that spa panel.

Yes pid has pump switch and 110 receptacle ... so run 4 from main panel to spa and 4 to receptacle. What about the fact that the neutrals and ground are on the same bus bar in main box and there are no spots left do I double a couple

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neutral and grounds should be tied together at your main panel (service) equipment but not tied together downstream. this would include any downstream sub-panels, receptacles, control panels, etc.

if i understand correctly, your main panel is full and you do not have any available spaces to add additional breakers. if that is the case, you may be able to free-up two pole positions by replacing a couple of your single pole breakers with a tandem breaker, below is a breakdown:



basically, you would remove two adjacent single-pole breakers (middle breaker in above image) and replace with your 30 amp two-pole breaker (like on the left). remove another two single-pole breakers in the panel and replace with two tandem breakers, re-terminating the circuit conductors on one of the tandem breakers. relocate the wiring from the breakers removed for the 30 amp two-pole breaker to the other new tandem breaker. only certain tandem breakers are compatible with certain panelboards, look on the inside door of your panel for a list of model numbers. and when rearranging the breakers in the panel, you need to make sue #14 awg conductors stay on 15 amp breakers, #12 conductors go to 20 amp breakers, etc.

itsnotrequired said:

neutral and grounds should be tied together at your main panel (service) equipment but not tied together downstream. this would include any downstream sub-panels, receptacles, control panels, etc.

if i understand correctly, your main panel is full and you do not have any available spaces to add additional breakers. if that is the case, you may be able to free-up two pole positions by replacing a couple of your single pole breakers with a tandem breaker, below is a breakdown:

basically, you would remove two adjacent single-pole breakers (middle breaker in above image) and replace with your 30 amp two-pole breaker (like on the left). remove another two single-pole breakers in the panel and replace with two tandem breakers, re-terminating the circuit conductors on one of the tandem breakers. relocate the wiring from the breakers removed for the 30 amp two-pole breaker to the other new tandem breaker. only certain tandem breakers are compatible with certain panelboards, look on the inside door of your panel for a list of model numbers. and when rearranging the breakers in the panel, you need to make sue #14 awg conductors stay on 15 amp breakers, #12 conductors go to 20 amp breakers, etc.

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Thank you no I think there's room the neutral bus bar is full in main

There are actually two black plastic space holders I think that just pop out for the new 30 amp 2 pole but it will be right across from a 50 amp 2 pole does that matter thank you again

applescrap said:

There are actually two black plastic space holders I think that just pop out for the new 30 amp 2 pole but it will be right across from a 50 amp 2 pole does that matter thank you again

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ha, that's even easier! you'll need to remove the entire face of the panel to add a new circuit breaker. you should do that anyway, just to confirm there isn't anything funky behind the covers that would prevent adding an additional breaker (e.g. damaged components).

no worries with a 50 amp breaker across from a 30 amp breaker.

AS if this is not your area of expertise I suggest you hire a pro to do your wiring. It's not worth the danger of doing it yourself with just basic advice off a forum, no matter how correct it may be. Better safe than sorry.

-BD

yeah, i should have mentioned that. if duders have any doubts or are uncomfortable performing electrical tasks, get the pros in there.

Yeah only problem pros I have hired any more are a bunch of hacks.... I had to repair the furnace guys work and then I had to tighten the gas line from the earlier guys furnace work. The pro flooring guys screwed everything up and I would have been better off to do my floors myself... but I appreciate you looking out I might call someone but I feel pretty comfortable slapping 2 pole in there.... I think the way to go is to find someone who knows their s*** and have them help you

itsnotrequired said:

yeah, i should have mentioned that. if duders have any doubts or are uncomfortable performing electrical tasks, get the pros in there.

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Thank you for all of your help

itsnotrequired said:

must be a local amendment, this is not a nec requirement. the main reason for having the spa panel 'close' is that it serves as the maintenance disconnecting means and doesn't have anything to do with the protective operating characteristics of the gfci. the disconnect doesn't need to be the spa panel (e.g. could be an additional, separate switch) but is typically what is used. the disconnect (spa panel) needs to be within sight of the equipment being disconnected, which is defined as less than 50 feet. this is so service folks can easily see that the equipment is shutoff. nec actually dictates a minimum distance of 5' from the disconnect to the walls of the spa, pool, hot tub, etc. (so the disconnect must be located between 5 and 50 feet away)

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It could be a local code yes... and thanks for clarifying... I was going by the excuse they gave me when I asked them at city hall why it had to be so close to the spa.

augiedoggy said:

It could be a local code yes... and thanks for clarifying... I was going by the excuse they gave me when I asked them at city hall why it had to be so close to the spa.

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i've had my local inspection office tell me all kinds of stuff is 'code' but when i press them and cite specific articles, they back off. especially in smaller jurisdictions, the code official is often a single person. it is very difficult to be on top of all the electrical, plumbing, energy, building, etc. codes. i can't fault them too much. if you work with them, they more than often will work with you. my local official was actually receptive to my commentary and mentioned that they had learned something new.

itsnotrequired said:

i've had my local inspection office tell me all kinds of stuff is 'code' but when i press them and cite specific articles, they back off. especially in smaller jurisdictions, the code official is often a single person. it is very difficult to be on top of all the electrical, plumbing, energy, building, etc. codes. i can't fault them too much. if you work with them, they more than often will work with you. my local official was actually receptive to my commentary and mentioned that they had learned something new.

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I wish mine was the same... When I replaced my front porch I ended up discovering the existing center support for the floor joists was off a few inches making my floor joists 10ft 2" span on one side. even though my code books from school (I went to Boces for carpentry in the mid 90's) said the span was within code for that dimensional size lumber to actually support a live and dead load (this is a 5ft by 20ft porchwith supports running the long way.). The inspector explained that the rules had changed and my porch still needed to support the same weight as the floors in my house even though it would never see the weight. I ended up having to double up all those joists because of the 2" increase.(which BTW was way more support than the original nominal 2x8s that ran the original 20ft with the center support for 100 years). Then because I have a cracked side walk at the base of the steps, after everything was done they wouldnt pass inspection because of the sidewalk which was never mentioned previously.

As you said MOST guys will work with you, I just got unlucky... I believe this inspector was bitter because we had plans garage approved by the previous inspector and built by a contractor. during this time the inspector retired and this Guy took over, When it was time for him to do the final walk through to approve the work he told us we had to fill the attic with truss supports. (Now the previous inspector had us use more 2x8s and a high pitch with 4 main supports to avoid having to do this because we wanted an attic above the garage.) I refused to re-engineer and drastically change the already built garage that had been approved 6 month earlier. There were other examples too like the fact that some guy that was in line after me at the inspectors office voiced his belief that he though hot tubs needed to be on an 8" thick concrete slab which the inspector then took for gospel. This led to a lot of work for my since I had planned on pouring a 6" so my hottub would line up with my new deck (the documentation my hot tub came with sites a 4" minimum foundation)

They wont even allow bathfitters to reline the bathtub/shower surround without requiring all the wiring be updated and hardwired co2 and smoke alarms be installed in my city.

Needles to say with a 175+ year old house its an uphill battle to get anything done on a budget without it exploding into something else.

Here's a picture inside the main I double check to confirm that yes indeed every single ground is taking up so I'll have to double dip what I need to go get is a GE 2 pole i dont think the generic will work

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This is really holding me up is it cool to double dip one neutral and one ground into that bus bar or should I install a new one. Here is a picture of the full panel if I need to put a new one can you tell me where it goes. I got the wrong 2 pole a generic one

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BrunDog said:

AS if this is not your area of expertise I suggest you hire a pro to do your wiring. It's not worth the danger of doing it yourself with just basic advice off a forum, no matter how correct it may be. Better safe than sorry.

-BD

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You need to take this advice. That is one wacky panel, and you are clearly in over your head. If you can't/won't go to an electrician, then you need to at least find someone that is experienced to help you, in person.
I don't know codes, but I doubt that doubling up neutrals is OK. The panel may already be expanded beyond it's design limits with all the double breakers, and that's why there are no wire spots left. Since there is no main shutoff, you'd have to work live, and if you loosen a neutral there is a good chance it's got current flow, and that makes it potentially deadly. It's possible that you could add another neutral bus bar, but again maybe not to code.

So my wife decided at the last minute right as I was about to begin that she didn't want brewing in the laundry room. I can't blame her really so looks like I'll be outside. It will save some money on cord anyways. It was a really slick setup the compression fittings out of the Knockouts in the panel to the elbow to the laundry room all water tight compression fittings then ran to the spa panel in the laundry room. I'll just be outside no big deal I ll use an extension cord to a receptacle

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So help what now do I install the spa panel under the covered patio or do I install it next to the main panel and run a extension cord to it. Should I even go with the spa panel or should I just put GFCI in the box now some how I like the idea of the spa panel being between the box and the brewing. Are the spa panels waterproof I guess I need a waterproof receptacle any help much much appreciated

Any thoughts on Electric Brewing outside

i don't believe you can get a spa panel that does not carry at least a nema (national electrical manufacturers association) rating of 3R. these are designed for outdoor use. they provide protection against falling and wind-driven rain, snow, sleet, etc. they are not designed to protect against hose-directed water so as long as you are not spraying it down, you will be fine. to maintain the weather resistant capabilities of the panel, you need to make sure you use the appropriate weatherproof fittings to attach conduits or cables.

in regards to mounting the spa panel under a covered porch, be advised that the nec dictates clear working space requirements for electrical equipment 'likely to require examination, adjustment, servicing, or maintenance while energized'. this would include a spa panel. the working space is defined as a 'box' that is 30" wide, 36" deep and 78" high in front of the panel. this is to provide a safe working area for someone who is exposed to energized conductors/equipment, so the individual isn't contorting themselves into odd positions to work with tools, etc. this increases the likelihood of an accident. this working space gets violated all the time and violation doesn't automatically create some dangerous situation but something to keep in mind if you want a compliant installation.

most folks that go the spa panel route due so for cost. a 50 amp spa panel costs around $60 and includes the gfci breaker. a 50 amp gfci breaker on its own can cost double that! of course, the breaker in your main panel makes for a cleaner installation, ,less conductors to terminate, etc. pros and cons, ymmv, etc.

Thank you so much its not required. Is it better for the main panels Health to have the spa panel inbetween? So if something goes its not in the panel . It would be less installation work to just have the GFCI breaker in the panel running to a receptacle. I don't know where this 50 $60 spa panel comes from mine was 87 at Home Depot and I haven't found much better online. Any thoughts on the receptacle. It seems they sell a weatherproof box that the receptacle goes inside of . I don't have any problem putting the spa panel right by the main panel at Home Depot they sell a weatherproof outdoor whip with wires included that looks pretty slick well I guess another whip from the spa panel to the receptacle. From there an extension cord could run the rig anywhere could it not. I think I could run an extension cord around my house and into the laundry room anyways if I wanted to brew in there

no worries about the gfci breaker in your main panel, this is what i did for my installation. i found a breaker on sale so it was only about $20 more than the spa panel but it saved me the effort of mounting the panel, additional terminations, one less thing to go wrong.


yes, weatherproof boxes/covers are available. here is one from menards:

http://www.menards.com/main/p-1444451265330-c-6432.htm?tid=-7042359561445582654

the above is for a single-gang box. you might want to consider a two-gang box for the receptacle, makes the wiring easier (more room to work). you would need to get a two-gang cover though.

Thanks for all your help . I need the weather proof box because it's brick so it will be a mounted weatherproof receptacle. I think the GFCI breaker will be better so there's not all this junk on the back of my house. I may have to call an electrician because since the bus bar is full it will be better for the GFCI breaker that have a new busbar. What do you think about the extension cord idea I guess I'll probably have to make it out of 10 gauge

looking at the picture above, it doesn't appear as if your panel is full. looks like those are some protective covers over the busbar in the open slots? you will need an electrician to take a look. without a main breaker, the utility company will need to pull the meter or similar to make the panel safe to work in. there are various lug/bar combinations available which could expand the capability of the neutral/ground bars, your electrician can advise.

for this extension cord, how about mounting the receptacle inside the house and running the cord through a window? you will need #10 as a minimum for a 30 amp circuit. you could make your own out of SO cord.

Yep thats the plan.... make my own extension cord with 10 gauge. I think I would rather mount the receptacle outside and run it inside then vice versa mostly drilling through the brick is not easy and its permanent. With a long enough cord I could brew in any room in the house or in any place outside right? So in the winter maybe I run the cord inside and brew in the kitchen and in the summer brew outside. Yeah ground and neutral bus bars extension kits are available. A master electrician told me it was okay to double the neutral and ground for just this. But if I want to call electrician to do the job it shouldn't be too much because it's all right there there is no long cord run or anything.

So the question is is it better to have the plug inside and run the extension cord outside or have the plug outside and run the cord inside

Electrician is coming Friday so finally I think I'll be getting hooked up

So here's the update I finally did it. Didn't get the whip clamps on yet but it went well . Wish I would have gone with three quarter that way I wouldn't need two gang extender. Didn't not get the in use cover just a waterproof cover. No spa panel GFCI is in box. Good thing I went in there one of the Breakers wasn't even attached right which was a clear sign to me that I was glad I was doing the job. Thanks everyone for the help except for.... Think I'm going to silicone the box a little overkill but seems like a good idea. When I pulled one neutral to double it it came straight out and that left a nice little spot for the breaker and then it slid into another spot nicely. The green one was more difficult but I got it in well and I take pictures because I'm obsessive and will second guess which is my main hesitation when I do anything anyways.

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