Table Saison Questions

While I wait for my LHBS to bring in more Wyeast 3724 (Belgian Saison), I'm reading "Farmhouse Ales" and planning my first Saison. I have a few questions bouncing around my head that aren't answered by the book and I haven't found the answers anywhere else. So I turn to you knowledgable people.

1. I want to make a table Saison of 1.035 OG, with an expected FG of about 1.005 and ABV of about 4%. How should I hop that? I was thinking about 20 IBUs, with most coming from a bittering charge at 60, a few IBUs from a .25 oz addition of Willamette at 15, followed by .75 oz of Willamette at flameout. ("Farmhouse Ales" has tons of detail on different Saison options, but there is scant info on table Saisons, other than gravity figures, and nothing specific about hopping them.)

2. For the bittering charge, I was thinking Magnum, since I have some to use up. Sound good?

3. I'm planning to brew this beer with 100% pilsner, a la Saison Dupont. I'm curious how that would work in such a low-gravity version of the style. I'd like to avoid adding wheat (my wife has trouble with it), but I'm open to other suggestions, if folks think that 100% pilsner would be too bland.

4. I use DME for yeast starters and bottle priming. Is there any point in buying pilsner DME for this beer, or will the regular light DME I have on hand yield the same results?

5. I hope to coax a lot of bubblegum aroma out of the yeast, and I wonder--with a low OG of 1.035, will there be decreased ester production?

6. Here's where things get crazy. After I brew this plain Saison, I'm planning to brew a version with the same OG, but with a portion of darker base malts to achieve an orange color. I will use the same hopping schedule as the first version, but I'll also add 3oz of nasturtium flowers to the boil at 5 minutes, and dry hop with at least an ounce of nasturtiums. Here's my question: is there reason to worry about bacteria or wild yeast infections from the dry hopped nasturtiums, any more than there would be from regular hop flowers? Remember, there will be less alcohol in this beer to inhibit infection (4%) than there would be in a standard or "super" Saison. On the other hand, if it's half as delicious as I envision, I'll be drinking this beer fast!


So that's a lot of questions. If any of you folks care to weigh in on one or more of them, I'd be much obliged.

check out Northern Brewers recipe for their Petite Saison. It's hopped quite well. I did it last year. Only mod i did was add a hint of orange peal to the boil but it's quite tasty on it's own and comes to about 4%.

HadesX said:

check out Northern Brewers recipe for their Petite Saison. It's hopped quite well. I did it last year. Only mod i did was add a hint of orange peal to the boil but it's quite tasty on it's own and comes to about 4%.

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Thanks, that was helpful!

1. If you're not looking for much hop aroma/flavor, I'd say your hop plan is perfect. I inverted the charges in my Spring Citrus Saison, but I wanted citrus flavor/aroma and used Cascade. (Maybe my favorite home brew to date!)

2. Don't see why not.

3. For my money, wheat is key. But if it's a nightmare for your process, I don't think 100% Belgian pils would be bland.

4. regular light DME is what use for pretty much all starters.

5. Check mrmalty.com for pitch rate? Off the cuff, I'd pitch a little low and start fermentation a degree or two higher than usual and just let 'er free rise after the first 24 hours of activity.

6. My gut says 1oz in 5gal isn't much of a risk, even @ low ABV. Maybe rinse the petals briefly?

I hope you'll take lots of notes & report back. Sounds fascinating! I've been moving toward lower alcohol beers myself.

Piratwolf said:

I hope you'll take lots of notes & report back. Sounds fascinating! I've been moving toward lower alcohol beers myself.

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Thanks for your input, PW. I will report back.

3. Not sure if this would cause a similar situation as wheat, but you could always throw a little rye in there. I've enjoyed the saisons I've tried that have some rye in malt bill. I guess it comes down to your opinion of rye in beer.

WhenInMinnesota said:

3. Not sure if this would cause a similar situation as wheat, but you could always throw a little rye in there. I've enjoyed the saisons I've tried that have some rye in malt bill. I guess it comes down to your opinion of rye in beer.

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Rye would be fine for me, but my wife has a slight gluten intolerance. Barley causes no problems for her, but wheat can cause migraines and nausea. After doing a bit of research (unfortunately, it was a year ago and I didn't note the source), I learned that on the continuum of grains that contain gluten proteins, rye is closer to wheat than it is to barley. So my plan is to avoid rye as well as wheat.

Honestly, with the small amount of wheat OR rye that's in many beers, my wife would probably be fine. She has unwittingly taken swigs of beers that have 10% wheat, and suffered zero reaction. But because she has shown interest in a low-alcohol Saison, I want to place a priority on brewing something that she can confidently drink in quantity.

But I appreciate the suggestion! When I asked about supplementing the grain bill, I was thinking along the lines of Vienna, Munich, maybe oats, or a small amount of light crystal. Right now, I'm still leaning toward 100% pils.

3. I'd add 4-8 oz of aromatic malt, get a little more body and maltiness to what will be a dry beer.

5. To get those "bubblegum" esters, you need to stress the yeast by under pitching. Either make a small starter, or just toss in the yeast and let it go.

beerkrump said:

3. I'd add 4-8 oz of aromatic malt, get a little more body and maltiness to what will be a dry beer.

5. To get those "bubblegum" esters, you need to stress the yeast by under pitching. Either make a small starter, or just toss in the yeast and let it go.

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Thanks, BK. 1/4 lb aromatic sounds like just the sort of subtle mod I need.

Maybe I'll go with a 500 - 750ml starter of the Belgian Saison. (I can't bring myself to not make a starter!)

You probably don't want to make a starter for this beer. You want to stress a little flavor out of the yeast -- this is a low gravity beer you're making here. I'd pitch the vial and let nature take its course. YMMV, IMHO etc etc.

bigbeergeek said:

You probably don't want to make a starter for this beer. You want to stress a little flavor out of the yeast -- this is a low gravity beer you're making here. I'd pitch the vial and let nature take its course. YMMV, IMHO etc etc.

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I'm with you on this, but I have other reasons for making a starter...

When I get a smack pack, here's what I do: I make a two-liter starter a week or so in advance of brew day, cold crash and decant, and then divide the yeast into 3-4 mason jars, topped off with sterile water. It's like saving the yeast *before* fermentation. There's no hops to wash out, and much less non-yeast material than there would be in fermenter trub. However, I get a bit less than 100 billion cells per jar. (My guestimation, based on Mr. Malty's calcs.) So on brew day, I make a 1 liter starter from one of the jars, just to get a healthy pitch.

For this Saison, making a 500 ml starter from one of my jars would probably get me right up to 100 billion cells, the amount in the original smack pack. So I'll still be underpitching slightly.

I would plan on using a little biscuit, vienna or aromatic. I am a fan of all base malt, esp. pils, but for such a low OG im not sure. I am planning to do something very similar after I step up dregs from a bottle of Dupont I have in the fridge. Then I will pitch the washed cake into a Dupont clone-ish (if i like it) and then a BGS. O yeah!!

ashplub said:

I would plan on using a little biscuit, vienna or aromatic. I am a fan of all base malt, esp. pils, but for such a low OG im not sure. I am planning to do something very similar after I step up dregs from a bottle of Dupont I have in the fridge. Then I will pitch the washed cake into a Dupont clone-ish (if i like it) and then a BGS. O yeah!!

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You understand my thinking about the low OG. It's funny, I was also planning to step up dregs from a bottle of Dupont, because I've heard that it's got multiple strains (as opposed to the single isolate in the Wyeast and White Labs versions). But then I decided just to go with 3724, so I can have something to compare it to.

Is it brewed? How did this turn out for you? I am going to pick my grains and hops for mine right now.

I am curious about the outcome of this as well!

Sorry to leave you folks hanging! My Dupont yeast just arrived at the LHBS, and before I brew this Saison I'm need to propagate a few jars to use throughout the summer and fall. Plus, I have a Berliner Weisse in one of my two carboys, and I need to leave the other open for at least another week so I can secondary the BW. I'll brew the Saison around June 1.

I am doing mine today.

6 gallons

6 lbs belgian pils
1lb wheat
8oz belgian biscuit
.5 ekg@ 60mins
.5 ekg@ 20mins

1/2 gallon starter of Dupont dregs stepped up over a week and a half

What temp do you guys think I should mash at? If I was doing a full sized sasion I would go for 148-150 but since this is low gravity I am thinking 152ish.

ashplub said:

What temp do you guys think I should mash at? If I was doing a full sized sasion I would go for 148-150 but since this is low gravity I am thinking 152ish.

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I planned to stick with 149; I want it to dry out completely. But maybe the Saison yeast could bring it down to 1.005 regardless. Perhaps others with more experience will chime in.

I'm drinking a premature 1.049 OG Saison right now. Still needs more carbonation and maturity. However, I wish I had mashed higher. I did a 25 min protein rest then mashed at 151-152 dropping to 149 over an hour. Mine was a pilsner base with 6% each of wheat, oats, rye, and sugar fermented with WLP550. Not happy with it at the moment. I thought the oats and wheat would have translated into more mouthfeel.

So don't fear a higher mash temp.

Quaker said:

I did a 25 min protein rest then mashed at 151-152 dropping to 149 over an hour.

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What was your FG?

I did my most recent Saison at ~151 and even with 3711 and ~71F finishing temps, it wound down at 1.009 & 5.25% ABV. (I wanted it about 1.005-6 but it tastes great.) So for my next round I'm definitely going with 148-9F mash temp.

My FG was 1.005. I used a fraction of a vial (I'm stingy since i rely on a stockpile brought from the US and i'm not equipped for slants) of WLP550 in a 2L stir-plate starter for 36 hrs. After decanting, I'd estimate it was a 250ml slurry which was pitched into 5.5 gallons of wort.

Mine got as high as 80F during fermentation. I just let it go.

I went with a 150 mash and I ended up with 6 gallons @1.037. I pitched @ 81 F.

ashplub said:

I went with a 150 mash and I ended up with 6 gallons @1.037. I pitched @ 81 F.

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All right! It'd be great if you could come back to let us know your FG and how long you took to get there.

I have been on vacation for the last few days so the AC in the house has been off. The electronic thermometer that was sitting on top of the bucket reads a min of 72 and a max of 84 over the last 3 days. Airlock activity is settled down to 1 burp/30seconds. I swirled the bucket a few times and put a heating pad under it.

I just bottled this Sunday. A little longer than I was planning on in primary but its fine. Gravity was 1.005 after 5 days and FG was 1.002. Samples taste great. A lot of the Dupont character is present.

I was going to bottle this past Sunday as well, but gravity kept moving downward. SG was in the neighborhood of 1.004, and would drop half a point every three days. It was fascinating to watch.

I have to go on a trip in the next few days, so my Saison will get at least 14 extra days to finish up. That will be six weeks total in primary. I'm interested to see exactly how close to 1.000 I end up, and how it ends up tasting.

My impressions, after tasting several samples over the last month: pitching at 85 and letting fermentation reach 95 produced perceptible higher alcohols. Maybe it's too soon to judge, and maybe after such a long primary and time in the bottle the higher alcohols will mellow out. However, with my next batch I will pitch cooler, say at 68, let it free rise to where it will (likely below 85), and give it as much time as it needs.

EDIT: I realized that I never posted my recipe. I went with 6lbs pils, and a half pound each of Aromatic, Vienna, and flaked oats. 90 minute mash at 149 F, 90 minute boil. 1.045 OG. 5 gallon post-boil volume. Bittered with .8 oz Willamette at 60, and a .75 oz aroma addition at flameout. Pitched a 500 ml starter.

I made my current Saison with an OG of 1.063, pitched a 1 liter starter of WL "Dupont" Strain at 90* F and put it on a brewpad for 30 days. FG was 1.009, I bottle conditioned half with coopers carb tabs at about 75* for 30 days, and WOW. Extremely close to Dupont, extremely close to the style, maybe a little more dry, but the flavor profile and aroma are all there. I have the other half on Brett B for about 30 days, nice little pellicle formed, can't wait to try them side by side!