Bag Squeeze Experiment

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Hegh

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There've been a few threads along the lines of, "Should I squeeze the grain bag?". Here are a few:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/dont-squeeze-grain-bag-21712/

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/should-i-squeeze-my-sack-46471/

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f37/specialty-grain-question-96290/

In fact, I myself used to believe that squeezing the specialty grains to get more liquid out would extract tannins and lead to astringent beer.

But I've heard others say that it's not true (again, see the threads above).

So which is it? I've designed this experiment to find out:

Overview:
Brew a small, split-batch using malt extract and specialty grains. Split the batch so that the liquid from squeezing the specialty grains only ends up in one half of the split. Conduct a blind taste test at the end to determine the results.

Ingredients:
1 lb Gold DME
1 lb Caramel 40L
0.25 oz Fuggle 4.6% @ 60 min
1 pkt Nottingham Dry Ale Yeast

Procedure:
Steep the caramel malt in a grain bag for 1/2 hour in 3qt of 155* water. Sparge with 3qt 165* water. Tea-bag and drain as usual. Place in a colander in a bowl and squeeze by placing another, smaller bowl on top and pressing down on it.

Pour all squeezed liquid into a measuring cup and note the amount (if very small, may not be worth the trouble and unlikely to cause any flavor changes; if very large, flavor changes are more likely, but so is the temptation to squeeze).

Save the squeezed water for the moment. Add the DME to the pot and mix thoroughly. Dip out 1qt at a time, first topping off the squeezed dregs. Pour these quarts into alternating pots, keeping them even at all times. Top off any remaining wort with tap water and split that between the two pots. The pots should each have an equal volume of wort, totaling about 2 gal (assuming 1.5 gal total after boil-off). Split the hops and add to the two separate pots.

Boil as usual.

Chill with an ice water bath; these will be small pots, so it should go quickly.

Aerate, dump into gallon-sized jugs, add 1/2 pkt of rehydrated Nottingham yeast to each. The other 1/2 pkt will be discarded. Note that this is a minor over-pitch, but is unlikely to cause any off flavors.

The jugs will be covered with sanitized aluminum foil while they ferment for 1 month.

End of recipe

Does anyone have any suggestions? Should I modify the recipe a bit? The point with using such a large amount of steeping grains is to emphasize any flavors that they may impart. Oh, and lastly, has anyone done this experiment before?

#tag#scienceofbrewing
 
Oh, I almost forgot. Here are the values from Beer Calculus . homebrew recipe calculator

OG: 1.046
FG: 1.011
Color: 11* SRM
Bitterness: 15.8 IBU
Alcohol: 4.7% by volume
Bittering:Gravity: 0.34 (relatively malty sweet)

I wanted a sweeter brew so that the bitterness of the hops wouldn't cover up any astringency extracted from the grain squeeze.

Also, the Nottingham was chosen for its high flocculation (less yeast in solution to mess with the flavor) and ease of use (less chance of infection with dry yeast as opposed to a starter).
 
This is a great idea. This is definitely one of those confusing areas that there is not agreement on. The only suggestion I would make is to leave out the irish moss. Fining agents have been suggested to help mitigate the effect of tannin extraction. The beer will not be as clear, but if tannins have been extracted, you might have an easier time judging/comparing.
 
... The only suggestion I would make is to leave out the irish moss. Fining agents have been suggested to help mitigate the effect of tannin extraction. The beer will not be as clear, but if tannins have been extracted, you might have an easier time judging/comparing.

Recipe updated. Thanks!

(for those new to the thread, the recipe contained 1/4 tsp rehydrated Irish moss)
 
No other suggestions? I'm not planning on making this for another two weeks or so, and I'd expected more criticism of my original recipe.

Last chance... I might have time to do this tomorrow. If so, I'll be using Caramel 40L instead of Crystal 20L since that's what the LHBS has.
 
will this be "professionally" judged, as well???

Looking forward to the results!
 
A lot of the LHBS owners (ok... all 3 of them) I've met are BJCP certified judges, ask yours if he is and see if he will help you out with the blind tasting.
 
I'm brewing this today. I updated the recipe to reflect what I'm actually doing based on what I have on hand.

I also added a tag to request that this thread be moved to the Science of Brewing forum. Not sure if I need to request the move, or if the tag will automatically pop up on an automated search... Anyone know?
 
Just finished squeezing the bag, and I got exactly three quarters of a cup out of the one pound of grains.

Since the steeping volume was 3qt, 3/4 of a cup is 6.25% of that volume. Not sure that it's really worth the effort to squeeze, and I have to say that I really tried to get as much out of that as possible. I weigh 217 (according to the scale this morning), and I put almost all of my weight into that squeeze.
 
Just finished squeezing the bag, and I got exactly three quarters of a cup out of the one pound of grains.

On the other hand, that 3/4 cup was very dark. Darker, even, than the wort was after adding the DME. So it must have contained quite a bit of stuff... But wouldn't tannins make it darker? Maybe good, maybe bad...
 
How did you squeeze? With your hands? Spoon in a collander? Tongs? Visegrips?
i have tried to squeeze by pressing the bag down into a collander, but it hasn't been very effective with larger bags of grain. Spoon bends or it is too hot to handle.
 
How did you squeeze? With your hands? Spoon in a collander? Tongs? Visegrips?
i have tried to squeeze by pressing the bag down into a collander, but it hasn't been very effective with larger bags of grain. Spoon bends or it is too hot to handle.

I pressed into a bowl on the bag in a colander in a larger bowl. Not sure it would work very well for large bags (more than 2.5 lbs), but it was quite manageable with the one pound bag.
 
Just took gravity readings (corrected to 1.036 for both versions) and tasted the samples. The experimental tastes more bitter, but not really astringent; more like there were more hops used in that version. Could turn into astringency later on, though...
 
Does it taste more bitter because there is 3/4 cup more wort in that half or was that amount factored in? Great idea.
 
The two sides had exactly the same amount of wort. The 3/4 cup was factored in as I was separating.
 
It sounds like you have a really good test going on. I am very interested in the results.

Also, I think that astringency would be perceived as a kind of bitterness. Here is how John Plamer describes it:
"Astringency differs from bitterness by having a puckering quality, like sucking on a tea bag. It is dry, kind of powdery and is often the result of steeping grains too long or when the pH of the mash exceeds the range of 5.2 - 5.6. Oversparging the mash or using water that is too hot are common causes for exceeding the mash pH range. It can also be caused by over-hopping during either the bittering or finishing stages. Bacterial infections can also cause astringency, i.e. vinegar tones from aceto bacteria."
 
Do a blind triangle tasting

I had been thinking about doing it that way, without even knowing that it was a standard method. I probably will go with that, now that I see it's an accepted method for determining whether there are discernible differences between samples.
 
Anyone know what the results of this experiment was? I recently made four AG beers and I squeezed the bag in all four of them. Now I've read that you're not suppose to squeeze the bag so naturally I'm a little concerned.

Also if squeezing the bag did release tannins did they ever go away with conditioning?
 
Sorry I haven't gotten back to this yet, but I haven't gotten around to bottling. I probably should soon, though, since it's been like 2.5 months in primary... I'll try to get to it this weekend.
 
I finally bottled this today, so I'll try to have a taste test in about a month, and then another one two months later.
 
On the other hand, that 3/4 cup was very dark. Darker, even, than the wort was after adding the DME. So it must have contained quite a bit of stuff... But wouldn't tannins make it darker? Maybe good, maybe bad...

I would think that the water that is trapped in the grains would have the highest concentration of flavor and color, because it has had the most contact with the grains.
 
I would think that the water that is trapped in the grains would have the highest concentration of flavor and color, because it has had the most contact with the grains.

Exactly why it's so tempting to squeeze the bag and get it out. But it's possible that you'll be extracting some bad with the good, which is why I'm doing this experiment.
 
Not yet, but I suppose it's probably about time for that, eh?

I'll try to do it sometime in the next week or two. Thanks for reminding me, I keep forgetting about this :drunk:
 
Wow, I'm sorry for leaving this hanging for so long. Anyway, I have taste test results from two people, one of whom is a long-time homebrewer. I think the other is just a friend of his. I wasn't around for the test, but we exchange beers once in a while and I included the control and experimental with the last six-pack I gave him.

Here's his exact response:

We both came to the same conclusion about the fact that 6a [the control] was nice and sweet and mellow throughout. be [I assume he means 6b, the experimental] was smooth in the beginning and then went to a bitter or a harsh type finish. There was definitely a difference between the two. In the latest BYO magazine, in the Mr. Wizard section he addresses a question regarding whether or not to squeeze the sack after steeping. He said definitely not because of the tannin release that you talked about.

And the interesting bit is that he told me that back when he was doing extract plus steeping grains, he would always squeeze the bag, since you get so much more sugar and color that way. So he was really coming at this from the other side.
 
Wow, I'm sorry for leaving this hanging for so long. Anyway, I have taste test results from two people, one of whom is a long-time homebrewer. I think the other is just a friend of his. I wasn't around for the test, but we exchange beers once in a while and I included the control and experimental with the last six-pack I gave him.

Here's his exact response:



And the interesting bit is that he told me that back when he was doing extract plus steeping grains, he would always squeeze the bag, since you get so much more sugar and color that way. So he was really coming at this from the other side.

What did the other guy say? (and this was blind right, they didn't know which one was the control?)?

Super cool idea by the way...:mug:
 
Did he know that 6a was the control?

Yes, he knew. I don't know if he told his buddy, though.

What did the other guy say? (and this was blind right, they didn't know which one was the control?)?

Super cool idea by the way...:mug:

This was not the blind taste testing that I was planning on. I had a full six-pack of each, so I figured I'd give a couple to him because I trust his opinion. The quote I posted was the only thing he said about it. I'll try to do the real taste test sometime soon, but I've been really busy lately (sister-in-law is getting married in a month).
 
Bumping this in the interests of science, did you ever get a finish on this which matched your enthusiastic beginning?
 
Bumping this in the interests of science, did you ever get a finish on this which matched your enthusiastic beginning?

Although I haven't done an "official" type tasting, the general consensus is that the squeezed beer is kind of dry and harsh tasting in a way that the non-squeezed isn't.

Not that either was very good, the recipe just wasn't particularly special :cross: But you could tell which was which, and the squeezed did definitely have some off flavors that most people expected would be there.
 
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