Is it ok that I don't really feel like going all grain?

joety said:

What the heck am I doing wrong? When I started AG a couple years ago, it took me 7 hours. I've since got it down to 5, including prep and cleanup. Extract brewing never took longer than 2 1/2 hours.

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5 hours seems really long. Literally the only difference between an extract + steeping brew and a BiaB all-grain brew is that I control the BiaB temperature more and it goes a full hour instead of 1/2 hour. So it's pretty much exactly 1/2 hour longer for an AG brew day than an extract + steeping day, by definition.

If you don't have specialty grains, then the difference gets a bit bigger (at least another 1/2 hour).

A few months ago I was convinced I wouldn't do extract anymore and was going to try a sort of BIAB mashing in a cooler type AG setup. I was so convinced I took my two remaining extract kits and just combined them into a 10 gallon batch that we brewed on my buddy's keggle, just to "get rid of them".

I've done two more extract batches since then so I don't really know what happened with that plan, but both batches have been really, really good.

I think the main thing that's keeping me doing extract batches is that I always end up brewing during the week for some reason, and I'm to the point now where I can get home from work and get going around 5pm and get a batch done and totally cleaned up by 9.

I definitely believe both methods can produce excellent beers!

wildwest450 said:

Just because people choose not to go all grain, that doesn't make those of us who do, pricks.

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*sigh*

I am specifically referring to a certain class of people who claim that AG is the only way to go because it makes better beer.

Or do you really think I'm calling myself a prick?

weirdboy said:

Or do you really think I'm calling myself a prick?

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Maybe, I know I did.

I still do extract after going AG....like every other batch. I don't have time to do AG all the time, and my extract beers have been perfected (uses term loosely). I have about 4 to 4.5 hrs for an AG compared to about 2 to 2.5 hrs for an extract for the complete session with cleanup, etc.
In the immortal words of Chuck Berry "It's a free country Baby, live like you want to live"

I'm sure you can brew a fine beer with this:



But if you like brewing, do you think this is getting the most out of the experience?

It's still a better deal than buying store bought.

5 gallons of the partial mash Orval clone I'm getting ready to brew will come to about $60

5 gallons of store bought = roughly $325

SumnerH said:

5 hours seems really long. Literally the only difference between an extract + steeping brew and a BiaB all-grain brew is that I control the BiaB temperature more and it goes a full hour instead of 1/2 hour. So it's pretty much exactly 1/2 hour longer for an AG brew day than an extract + steeping day, by definition.

If you don't have specialty grains, then the difference gets a bit bigger (at least another 1/2 hour).

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Measuring and milling grain while strike water is heating - half hour
Mash in - hour to ninety minutes, recipe dependent
mash out - ten minutes
Fly sparge - half hour
boil and beyond - maybe half an hour longer than extract if you weren't doing a full boil before, no difference if you were

That's anywhere from two hours and ten minutes longer on up.

For me the question is more like, "Why wouldn't I want to go AG?"

If you like fast and simple, then extract is both and can make a damn fine beer (nothing I've ever made, but a friend has and I've come close right before going AG).

If you want to get a bit more hands-on, and be able to adjust the flavors in your beer, do PM. It's just about the same as extract.

If you want to do a full-on AG, then BIAB is the real deal, just easier and with no real additional cost.

If you want to spend a bit, to a bunch, more money, then buy or build an MLT, Burner, Mill, etc... The sky is the limit.

A "standard" AG setup should cost less than $150 if you go cheap. Corona Mill, like $25, Cooler MLT, $50. Turkey Fryer, $50. Skip the mill if you buy your grain pre-crushed (but buying bulk grain can save a bunch!)

So cost should not be a factor. Fun should be the factor. Frankly, if I didnt' have all day to enjoy my brewing, I'd rather not brew at all (until the beer runs out!). But I enjoy the 6 hours of brewing. Planning the recipe, measuring, crushing, mixing, sparging, etc. It's all fun for me.

So do what you like, but I think you really owe it to yourself to read up on and try your hand at AG, even if it's the simple BIAB method to start with. It's fun!

Homercidal said:

For me the question is more like, "Why wouldn't I want to go AG?"

If you like fast and simple, then extract is both and can make a damn fine beer (nothing I've ever made, but a friend has and I've come close right before going AG).

If you want to get a bit more hands-on, and be able to adjust the flavors in your beer, do PM. It's just about the same as extract.

If you want to do a full-on AG, then BIAB is the real deal, just easier and with no real additional cost.

If you want to spend a bit, to a bunch, more money, then buy or build an MLT, Burner, Mill, etc... The sky is the limit.

A "standard" AG setup should cost less than $150 if you go cheap. Corona Mill, like $25, Cooler MLT, $50. Turkey Fryer, $50. Skip the mill if you buy your grain pre-crushed (but buying bulk grain can save a bunch!)

So cost should not be a factor. Fun should be the factor. Frankly, if I didnt' have all day to enjoy my brewing, I'd rather not brew at all (until the beer runs out!). But I enjoy the 6 hours of brewing. Planning the recipe, measuring, crushing, mixing, sparging, etc. It's all fun for me.

So do what you like, but I think you really owe it to yourself to read up on and try your hand at AG, even if it's the simple BIAB method to start with. It's fun!

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Great post! All the pros and cons in a nutshell!

joety said:

Measuring and milling grain while strike water is heating - half hour
Mash in - hour to ninety minutes, recipe dependent

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I buy premilled grain. Measuring it out doesn't add any time since that's done while the water was heating, which was previously dead time (actually if you buy from brewmasterswarehouse it shows up pre-measured for you, plus you're only buying exactly the needed amounts instead of in full lb increments).

My typical mash is an hour, but replaces the 1/2 hour steep so it's only 1/2 hour longer. Some recipes (e.g. my saisons) do have a 90 minute mash, though.

mash out - ten minutes
Fly sparge - half hour

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"Fly Sparge" doesn't apply to BiaB brewing which is what I was talking about. There's no real separate mashout step either--the grain's pulled directly from the mash to the 170F sparge (to fix the enzymes in the grain/sparge), where it batch sparges while the brew kettle (nee mash tun) is heating (which fixes things there).

Basically, by eliminating the wort transfer you can overlap the sparge time with the heating of the brew kettle and not lose any time.

No extra time here, so still just 1/2 hour longer total for a typical brew.

boil and beyond - maybe half an hour longer than extract if you weren't doing a full boil before, no difference if you were

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Yeah, moving from partial boil to full boil can add a bit more time (or save it, if the burner you use is much more powerful than the stovetop burner you were using before); that's independent of all grain vs. extract.

Certainly some of my all-grain brews, when I'm doing a complicated decoction with my 3-vessel setup, can take a lot longer than a typical extract day. The point is, though, that all-grain doesn't have to take a lot longer or use a lot of equipment; for 80% or so of my brews, I go BiaB to save time and effort and it's only marginally different from extract + steeping grains.

SumnerH said:

I go BiaB to save time and effort and it's only marginally different from extract + steeping grains.

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Yeah, I probably should "add back" some time for steeping specialty grains, so I'm probably looking net/net at two hours flat. BiaB does sound quicker.

I stock five base grains (MO, Domestic 2-row, Munich, Belgian Pils and Golden Promise), over 30 specialty grains and a dozen hop varieties in bulk. I do it because I have the room and I like to be able to just pick up a package of yeast at NB and brew on a couple days notice, but it does take extra time on brew day to do all the measuring and such.

Ok, you need to leave now, get out!!!


.....just kidding.

I'm 7 months and 15 batches of extract (save for 3 versions of EdWort's apfelwein) in and I'm considering going AG - for a few reasons:

1. the primary one being that I have a pipe-dream of becoming a professional brewer someday, and having at least a base knowledge of AG is an absolute must,

2. Like others have said, I enjoy the extra steps that go into AG - I always brew on Friday nights or during the weekend, so I've got the time and space, and

3. Control over my variables/ingredients/overall batch costs/etc.

If I didn't dream of someday owning my own brewpub, I'd probably be extremely content with extract brewing and maybe a PM here or there. With that said, as others have stated in this thread (and I'm sure you've got their point by now), there are different strokes for different folks. I'm sure you wouldn't ask your friends if you should "like" watching sports live as opposed to at home or in a bar, would you? Personal preference is everything. Do what feels most comfortable to you. If you do things right, you'll almost always make good beer.

As others have noted, staying extract has it's advantages of ease and convenience. But having switched over not that long ago, I can't imagine going back. I am a bit of a kit collector, so of course I welcomed the opportunity to expand my equipment inventory, but the control over factors like subtle flavors, color, and IMO complexity is something that sets it apart for me. Being able to brew a more varied set of styles with similar base ingredients is a big factor.

Additionally, the family/friend demand for my brews outgrew my extract setup and if I was going to go big and start doing larger batches, I might as well learn and figure out this whole AG dealio.

And I did the math for my setup in terms of cost per gallon. It turned out I could brew for about 1/3rd the material cost by going bulk-buy all-grain.

Randar said:

And I did the math for my setup in terms of cost per gallon. It turned out I could brew for about 1/3rd the material cost by going bulk-buy all-grain.

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I have no doubt you've been able to realize those kind of savings, but my guess is two factors are buying bulk hops from some place like Hopsdirect.com and washing yeast. Neither one of those has anything to do with all grain.

Do whatever works for you.

Time and space have dictated that I stick with extract (with a few PM batches thrown in here and there). I've brewed some great beers using both methods, so it's all gravy.

I think most people don't put in the opportunity costs when brewing beer, but it doesn't matter I say do what you like. Possibly someday I will go AG, but not anytime soon. I'm having a blast with PM and using Extract.

I know that from start to finish with an extract batch it takes me roughly 3 hours, that includes a quick cleanup at the end. I am guessing going all grain will bring that up to five hours just because of the additional time doing AG then you have the additional cleanup. Nice thread.. Makes you think.

I was perfectly happy brewing extract beers, but then due to a weird breakdown in communication, I bought all-grain ingredients for a group brew day before figuring out that my brew buddy was also an extract brewer and did not have all-grain gear. So, we went on a little field trip and bought a 5-gallon cooler and a cooler conversion kit, and I was an all-grain brewer.

I'll be honest. I love all-grain brewing 10x as much as extract brewing. But it does take me about 5 hours longer to finish a batch, and I'll do an extract brew every once in a while if I'm interested in keeping the pipeline alive without doing all the work.

TL;DR I became an AG brewer by accident. It's great, but do what works for you.

NBABUCKS1 said:

I extract brew. I appreciate the convienience of extract brew. I know I pay a premium on ingredients, but at the same time I don't have to invest a ton of money into the gear to go all grain.

Is it ok that I like extract brewing, or do I just need to see the light and go AG?

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Of course its fine, but the idea that you need to spend a ton of money on gear to go AG is ludicrous.

joety said:

I have no doubt you've been able to realize those kind of savings, but my guess is two factors are buying bulk hops from some place like Hopsdirect.com and washing yeast. Neither one of those has anything to do with all grain.

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No, but buying grain for $.60/lb vs $4/lb for DME does.

Synovia said:

No, but buying grain for $.60/lb vs $4/lb for DME does.

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Extract's definitely more expensive, but not by _that_ much. DME's more like $2.50/lb if you buy in bulk.

Also, given that it's only .6 lbs of DME to reach the extract potential of 1 lb of grain, that works out to about $1.50 for the same extract potential as the $.60 lb of grain.

I was on the fence about whether to start thinking about going to AG...
and I saw a mash tun and bazooka on Craigslist for $20, but the guy already sold it.

I work all week, and I play in a band on the weekends. Extract is as far as I plan on going, and I like the results. I just don't think I have time for AG.

I can't believe no-one has brought up fermentation control or buying bulk extract...

The two upgrades I would recomend for you are:

1. Get a controlled temperature fermentation figured out.
2. Ensure you are pitching a proper amount of good healthy yeast into a good wort environment.
3. Buy DME in bulk (purchase some air-tight containers from US Plastics) and save a crap load of mulah.
4. Buy bulk hops from hopsdirect or other source.
5. Start taking meticulous notes. I recommend braukaiser.com logbook.
6. Understand the limitations of extract and learn to formulate or use recipes that utilize the advantages of extract while avoiding the (relatively few) limitations.
7. Assess your beer. Are you happy with it? If not and your realize that the thing you would change about the beer can only be accomplished by cutting out the extract, then consider going AG.

That is the progression I would recommend. I love AG brewing for everything it offers. Tons of science and nerdery. I rarely brew with a single infusion mash schedule and am always tinkering to try and manipulate aspects of my wort. If that isn't something you are into, whats the rush?

I still brew extract+grain batches. I normally do them while I am brewing an AG batch. I can do extract in my sleep and the beers turn out fine. I use extract for super simple stuff like my American mild. The other factors have a larger affect (in general) for new homebrewers that the source of the wort sugars.

Above all, do what you want, this isn't your job. Have fun