Ethics Thread

CGVT said:

I'd save Kim too. Then she could make me a sandwich.

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Not only does the dumb hoe not know how to make a sammich since she's never had to, but I'd be willing to wager she's also way too dumb to figure out how.

Crito said:

Just mention/create a conversation that you took the "be prepared" from the FEMA/CDC advertisements seriously. And see how many coworkers and friends will say that they will not 'be prepared' and even state they will steal stuff from other people.

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gratus fermentatio said:

Interesting. Just to play devil's advocate for a minute, what if it was you who was starving? Maybe you & your wife in desperate need of food, or maybe medical treatment? I'm not saying you would or wouldn't, I'm just saying desperate people tend to do desperate things. Would you really choose to starve slowly, knowing your neighbor had a surplus of food, but refused to share with you?
Regards, GF.

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Good points.

Not sure whether to post this in this thread or to revive and post it in the CG advice columnist thread found here https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f19/i-think-id-make-excellent-advice-columnist-another-rant-320113/ but decided on this one because it seems to get more traffic.

Dear CreamyGoodness,
Oh Chieftain of Ethical Quandaries. As I mentioned in the "Things that a Homebrewer Thinks" thread I have an ethical dilemma. (Somewhat) Hypothetically, I have received about once monthly for several months a check from my contracting company for $100 labeled Employee Expense Reimbursement. I have not filled out any reimbursement forms nor spent any money that to me deems the need to get reimbursement. I know I should bring it up to HR, and honestly feel really bad that I would have (again hypothetically) deposited said checks as they arrived. While these monies have allowed for homebrew purchases, I feel I should be honest and inquire as to the reasoning behind said checks. Especially since I really do not want to get anyone in trouble for what may have been an honest mistake. Since I am not one of the people who live check to check I can afford to not receive said check, and can pay back any erroneous amount, should I inquire as to the reasoning behind said monetary 'bonuses', for fear of them being cut off? I mean the last thing I want to have happen would be to be accused of embezzlement (though I am a low rung on the totem pole).
Dearest Regards,
Buzzed and Confused


Edit: Haha, I said 'Pole'

I'm not CG, but I do try to live an ethical life. I have 'honor' tattooed in Gaelic on my arm as a reminder, so ask yourself what the 'honorable' thing to do would be? If this were a movie, would your actions be that of the hero or that of the villain, or maybe just the actions of the slack jawed yokel or 'Milton' of the group?

By the very nature that you're asking the question, it would seem that you already know the answer. Maybe the money is legitimately yours, but you don't feel like it is. Bring it up, ask the question - best case, you get to keep it and can sleep comfortably knowing all is well. Worst case - you have to give it back and get asked "why didn't you say something sooner". Or you ignore it, and best case is you get a few extra bucks a month at the expense of your personal self-worth and honorability. Worst case in THAT scenario is that someone eventually figures it out and you have to pay it all back and get fired.

I know I wouldn't want to... but I'd bring it up and say "hey, am I _SUPPOSED_ to be getting these checks - just asking..."

Good luck,
-Kevin

DrunkleJon said:

Not sure whether to post this in this thread or to revive and post it in the CG advice columnist thread found here https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f19/i-think-id-make-excellent-advice-columnist-another-rant-320113/ but decided on this one because it seems to get more traffic.

Dear CreamyGoodness,
Oh Chieftain of Ethical Quandaries. As I mentioned in the "Things that a Homebrewer Thinks" thread I have an ethical dilemma. (Somewhat) Hypothetically, I have received about once monthly for several months a check from my contracting company for $100 labeled Employee Expense Reimbursement. I have not filled out any reimbursement forms nor spent any money that to me deems the need to get reimbursement. I know I should bring it up to HR, and honestly feel really bad that I would have (again hypothetically) deposited said checks as they arrived. While these monies have allowed for homebrew purchases, I feel I should be honest and inquire as to the reasoning behind said checks. Especially since I really do not want to get anyone in trouble for what may have been an honest mistake. Since I am not one of the people who live check to check I can afford to not receive said check, and can pay back any erroneous amount, should I inquire as to the reasoning behind said monetary 'bonuses', for fear of them being cut off? I mean the last thing I want to have happen would be to be accused of embezzlement (though I am a low rung on the totem pole).
Dearest Regards,
Buzzed and Confused


Edit: Haha, I said 'Pole'

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Well my conscience got the best of me and I fessed up. It was intentional and is to help in commuting/parking for us contractors. Dang. It was more fun when I thought it was illicit funds.

Sorry for the necro bump but I have a good one.

In my neck of the woods there are people who hand out paper things on the street. Free newspapers, advertisements for salons, churches, massage therapists, you name it.

If these people are being paid a set amount of money (ie, I'll give you $50 when you are done handing out this stack of papers") as I assume, is it ethical to take a pamphlet or newspaper I have no intention of ever reading in an effort to get this person one handout closer to the end of their shift?

And if I am operating under this assumption, and it turns out later that this person was hired for a set amount of TIME (ie, if you hand out these papers for the next 5 hours I'll give you $50 no matter how many people are taking), have I been unknowingly unethical?

I'd say if you take it with you and dispose of it properly (preferably recycle it) then I would say you have no moral dilemma. Anyone who is marketing this way should realize that 50% (probably even more) of what gets passed out will either be dropped on the street or in the nearest garbage can. If it wasn't profitable for them to advertise this way, then they wouldn't have hired the person in the first place.

If you used the paper to learn origami, you could bank some morality.

Ethical question. I bought something from someone on EBay. The item was ~$130 including shipping.

The item arrived damaged. I contacted the seller. Because of the expense of shipping the item back, he didn't want the item. He gave me a full refund and told me to just keep the item.

I was able to repair the item. I bought some parts and spent a few hours. I did spend some money that I wouldn't have if the seller hadn't told me to keep the damaged item.

I feel like I should send him something, but on the other hand he sent me a broken item to begin with. Do I owe this guy anything?

Nope - at $100+ you should assume that he insured it. Tough titties if he didn't.

No. When he gave you the refund he had the opportunity to have you return it, upon which he might have been able to repair it, but chose to cut his losses instead. You don't owe him anything, other than positive feedback for standing behind his product by giving a refund when his buyer informed him there was a problem.

I'd say what you owe him is goodwill. Like LLBeanJ I say give him a positive review, and put him on the short list of sellers to do business with in the future.

b-boy said:

Ethical question. I bought something from someone on EBay ... didn't want the item. He gave me a full refund and told me to just keep the item ,,, Do I owe this guy anything?

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Though he may have been motivated by saving costs ... in your eyes he did you a good deed and that's the important part.
Now, you have the obligation to pass it along. Any ethical or moral dilemma will be satisfied in this way ...

I think it's an important opportunity.

If you'll bear with me for a moment:
I find the opportunity regularly to "pass it along" ... and this is the story I relate to people whom I help ... in particular those I help "out of the blue".

It's a much longer story but, briefly ... Long long ago a Canadian long-haul trucker pulled us out of gulley about 50 yards off the I-75 Interstate when we were in the middle of BFE Michigan, about 50 miles north of the Zilwaukee Bridge on a Sunday morning at 2am in the middle of a snowstorm. We'd left the road when my buddy fell asleep at the wheel (btw about 5 minutes after I'd seen him nodding and demanded he pull over and let me drive ... anyhow).
After leaving the road when we came to a stop, having no idea how far we'd gone off the road, and the windshield being completely snow covered, I said to him, "keep your foot on the brake" maybe I can push us back onto the road".
When I pushed the door open the snow was half way up the door.
I stepped out ... because we had gone into a gully and the highway was up on the crest and it was in a heavy snowfall; it looked as though we'd had our car dropped into the middle of the north woods by helicopter. Just pine trees ... stillness ... snow falling ... a few stars showing from behind the clouds ... wind in the treetops ... the whole thing.
We did not see a single automobile for about 40 minutes and were facing having to walk miles to the nearest civilization and knock on a door. Finally we saw lights far in the distance. The trucker just happened to have a hundred yards or so of heavy duty chain and in 20 minutes we were back up on the road.
Though we repeatedly tried to give him cash, he would not take any money but did allude to that HE had once-upon-a-time inherited the obligation when someone helped him - though did not go into details ... and so, he further explained to us that now WE had inherited the obligation also, to pass it on.

We would have been walking for hours in periodic blizzard conditions and two feet of snow.
He saved our asses.

That somewheres around 1986.
I've been "working it off".
I've helped many people in need since then ... both on and off the road.
I go out of my way, sometimes way out of my way, to do so.
And each one of them hears the unabridged story of how I inherited the obligation and that I'm "still working it off" - and that now they have the obligation too.

I'm sure I "worked it off" long ago ... but it also permanently changed me.
Truth is, I do it because I like helping people when the chips are down.
For the psyche, the spirit ... I consider it a luxury to find the opportunity to do such things.

There are I estimate probably around 50 or 60 people who I've passed on the obligation to (estimating that I was managing about 2 or 3 or so a year for quite a while). I still watch for the opportunity all these years later.

In finance it's called "the magic of compounding" ... in a shampoo advertisement it was "I told two friends, and they told two friends and so on, and so on ..."
I sometimes have wondered how many good deeds and how much help all those I'd charged ... knighted, if you will ... have done.
Did they explain the obligation? ... In theory, the numbers get pretty profound pretty quickly.

As a sort of practical definition ... Ethics are with what you do with situations as they are handed to you ... and your morals, are what inform your ethical behavior. Both are strengthened by "passing it on". For me at least it's a good framework that has become part of who I am ... I guess part of my character.

If I might be so forward ... I think it would work for the good deed you received too.

(and to those who stuck with this not so brief story ... thanx)

b-boy said:

Ethical question. I bought something from someone on EBay. The item was ~$130 including shipping.

The item arrived damaged. I contacted the seller. Because of the expense of shipping the item back, he didn't want the item. He gave me a full refund and told me to just keep the item.

I was able to repair the item. I bought some parts and spent a few hours. I did spend some money that I wouldn't have if the seller hadn't told me to keep the damaged item.

I feel like I should send him something, but on the other hand he sent me a broken item to begin with. Do I owe this guy anything?

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I feel this is pretty simple.

He made a business decision that it wasn't worth it for him to get it back and try to repair it, but wanted to preserve his reputation by refunding you 100% (I did this exact thing once with an LCD monitor I sold to someone on eBay). In all likelihood, a quick value of one's own time guess-timation.

You, OTOH, were clever, and took the necessary time to effect a repair. This increased the value of the thing with your own sweat equity.

So he's okay, and you're okay. No worries.

b-boy said:

I feel like I should send him something...

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It may not be as much of a question of whether you "owe" him or not as it is following your gut. If this were me and the thought above crossed my mind, then I think I'd follow through. At the end of the day, no one can tell you what to do better than your own conscience.

If you think that you owe the seller something, send him a payment, most of ebay is paypal friendly and you should have the information in your account somewhere. Go ahead and send him/her what you feel is fair with a note saying that you managed to get it to 100% and felt it was only fair to pay him what the base part was worth. Otherwise, sate your honor by paying it forward, or in whatever way it is that you feel makes you even. Or don't do anything and accept the windfall as a 'thank you for your patronage I am sorry for the inconvenience, and an attaboy for making lemonade out of a lemon.'

The sellers ethics dictated a full refund and he did not want to have to bother with a broken product. You can accept it at face value, or you can make yourself even however you feel works.

Perhaps you could send the seller (or me, or both the seller and me.) some homebrew.

You're only obligated to send him something (and it's a stretch even then) if your time is worth literally zero. If he lived down the street and had zero cost to get the product back, he's still looking at the cost of getting it repaired. In this scenario, he may have very well taken it back, given you your money, and then tossed it into the trash can. At that point, if you were to take it out of the trash, and fix it as you have - you would be under no obligation to pay him, morally, ethically, or otherwise. This is a similar case, only he had you throw it away for him.

By researching the issue (time), sourcing the parts (time and cost), and performing the repair (time) you put effort into it that he did not feel was enough for him to put into it or to pay someone else for it.

If I buy a junked car off someone, put time and money into fixing it, I don't owe the original seller the cost difference between the junker and the newly refurbished car as I'm the one who got it there.

The only way I could see you having any moral, ethical, or other responsibility or guilt is if you lied to the seller about the condition or did something to put it into that condition. Sometimes Amazon sends you too many of something you ordered and it's not worth it to them to ship it back and put it back on the shelves - basically the same situation here.

In short - you're good. And good on you for fixing it vs tossing it into the dump.
-Kevin

Thanks for the opinions. I think my problem is not looking at this as 2 distinct things:

• The transaction with the seller.
• Fixing the item.

They really are completely separate things.

Originally I asked for a replacement as opposed to a refund. He couldn't provide that, so I took the refund. I spent several hours running around and working on the item, so I'm fine with the outcome. If the situation were reversed I guess I wouldn't expect any compensation.

Hypothetical question. You find yourself travelling to a foreign country, where the local currency is very weak in relation to your own. You find out that for a ridiculously small amount of money, say, $1 USD, a person could eat several meals. In short, a single dollar goes a long way.

Is it unethical to tip a single dollar at a restaurant, knowing it is a lot of money for the person receiving it?

CreamyGoodness said:

Hypothetical question. You find yourself travelling to a foreign country, where the local currency is very weak in relation to your own. You find out that for a ridiculously small amount of money, say, $1 USD, a person could eat several meals. In short, a single dollar goes a long way.

Is it unethical to tip a single dollar at a restaurant, knowing it is a lot of money for the person receiving it?

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It depends on how you look at it. If the person is poor and you are the type who donates $100 to OXFAM then you should probably tip more.

If you are an economist you would say that rapidly increasing an areas wages without allowing the whole economic system to catch up can cause problems of its own so don't mess with the system.

You could be the type of person who tips large and so you throw the person a $10 spot and make their month.

Or just tip them a dollar and know that is the way things work.

I don't think there is a wrong answer really.

I say tip whatever is customary for the culture/region and leave it at that.

Tip based on the total bill and tot means. If that means the server can feed their family for a week, then all the better.

Nope, it sounds like you are glad to help, but I would check to find out what the normal amount or percentage is.

In some cultures (Japan) tipping is not expected, and can even be taken as an insult. Like I mentioned, I think it's important to follow the local rules.

http://www.oncallinternational.com/...ntry-by-country-guide-for-business-travelers/

CreamyGoodness said:

Hypothetical question. You find yourself travelling to a foreign country, where the local currency is very weak in relation to your own. You find out that for a ridiculously small amount of money, say, $1 USD, a person could eat several meals. In short, a single dollar goes a long way.

Is it unethical to tip a single dollar at a restaurant, knowing it is a lot of money for the person receiving it?

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Interesting question, and one I have never really thought about. I just returned from Punta Cana, DR. Even though we stayed at an all inclusive resort, every few drinks, I would give the waiter or bartender a few bucks, any where from $1-$10, depending on how long I had been drinking. There was no "tab" from which to base a tip, but I felt the service deserved something. The USD is worth considerably more than the DR peso. I think I did the right thing.

CreamyGoodness said:

Hypothetical question. You find yourself travelling to a foreign country, where the local currency is very weak in relation to your own. You find out that for a ridiculously small amount of money, say, $1 USD, a person could eat several meals. In short, a single dollar goes a long way.

Is it unethical to tip a single dollar at a restaurant, knowing it is a lot of money for the person receiving it?

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Why would it be? It's not a question of ethics. It's a question of a culture's societal norm.

If a person from this same poor country came to the US and had a meal here and only tipped five cents, that wouldn't be unethical. It would be a violation of our societal norm, but not unethical.

According to my waiter cousin down in the deep south, they don't tip down there. Like, hardly ever.

This explains why the southern waitresses were always so very happy to see my Illinois family pull in to their restaurant.

I would slap her in the stupid face and steal the tip jar.

LandoLincoln said:

According to my waiter cousin down in the deep south, they don't tip down there. Like, hardly ever.

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Hey now Elwood .. some of us tip as well here as we would in Crest Hill, New Lenox, or Lockport

Elwood - that's a Joliet town too, no? Where the race tracks are? I was thinkin' Jake and Elwood up top there.

soccerdad said:

Hey now Elwood .. some of us tip as well here as we would in Crest Hill, New Lenox, or Lockport

Elwood - that's a Joliet town too, no? Where the race tracks are? I was thinkin' Jake and Elwood up top there.

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It's a tiny town very close to Joliet. Yeah, the race track is kinda between Joliet and Elwood.

CreamyGoodness said:

Hypothetical question. You find yourself travelling to a foreign country, where the local currency is very weak in relation to your own. You find out that for a ridiculously small amount of money, say, $1 USD, a person could eat several meals. In short, a single dollar goes a long way.

Is it unethical to tip a single dollar at a restaurant, knowing it is a lot of money for the person receiving it?

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Nowhere in the world is $1 a life-changing amount of money unless there are extreme circumstances (i.e. someone is going to starve now without a dollar to buy food). That's not a very satisfying answer, because it ignores the question of where to draw the line, but one-dollar tips aren't crossing it.

As someone else mentioned, tipping isn't always acceptable in the first place. A Mexican restaurant I used to eat at in college had a sign up: "Tipping isn't a city in China." Well it's also not a custom in China, and if you do it here in a non-Western-run establishment, it's often going to be viewed as an insult. I've had taxi drivers wait for me while I ran quick errands before and even help me on said errands (particularly bottle runs from a local bar), and they outright refuse to accept any more than what it says on the meter even though they're losing potential income by waiting for me (there is a timer on the meter, but it pays very little).

CreamyGoodness said:

Hypothetical question. You find yourself travelling to a foreign country, where the local currency is very weak in relation to your own. You find out that for a ridiculously small amount of money, say, $1 USD, a person could eat several meals. In short, a single dollar goes a long way.

Is it unethical to tip a single dollar at a restaurant, knowing it is a lot of money for the person receiving it?

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"Unethical" as in being too little money for a tip? I'd say no, certainly not. What is the accepted tipping standard in the US, about 10% or 15% of the total bill? In the scenario you posed, it would seem that a single US dollar would be far more than that & would be a very welcome tip by the wait staff.

I've actually done something similar to this. Back in the 80's when the Mexican peso was something like 800 pesos to 1 US dollar, I used to go down to Mexico for a nice evening of food, drink & such. Two of us could eat a really great meal, shoot pool & drink for several hours, get gloriously drunk, call it a night & still have money left in my pocket; all from a $20 dollar bill. I tipped a couple of dollars at both the restaurant & the bar.

Should I have tipped more? No. Those tips were far above the accepted average. Should I have tipped more simply because I could afford to do so? No. Would you expect Bill gates to tip a waitress $5000 when all he ordered was a burger & fries? Of course not. Tipping the poor waitstaff in the poor foreign country a single dollar is certainly acceptable IMHO.
Tho, if you got the meal with a happy ending, your tip should be commensurate with the quality of service provided.
Regards, GF.

Here's a question:
Is it unethical to keep a stray cat/dog? No collar, no microchip ID, no clues whatsoever as to their owner, but it's obvious that until very recently the animal was taken care of by somebody. You like the animal a lot, maybe your kids like the animal a lot too. The animal is well behaved & seems to settle into your home like it's lived there for years.

Do you take it to the pound? Do you put up flyers? Do you simply keep it & love it like your own? What do you do? What should you do?

gratus fermentatio said:

Here's a question:
Is it unethical to keep a stray cat/dog? No collar, no microchip ID, no clues whatsoever as to their owner, but it's obvious that until very recently the animal was taken care of by somebody. You like the animal a lot, maybe your kids like the animal a lot too. The animal is well behaved & seems to settle into your home like it's lived there for years.

Do you take it to the pound? Do you put up flyers? Do you simply keep it & love it like your own? What do you do? What should you do?

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No, as long as you make a reasonable attempt to find the owner.

Put up flyers. If nobody responds, it's yours, and better off for it. Screw the pound.

gratus fermentatio said:

Here's a question:
Is it unethical to keep a stray cat/dog? No collar, no microchip ID, no clues whatsoever as to their owner, but it's obvious that until very recently the animal was taken care of by somebody. You like the animal a lot, maybe your kids like the animal a lot too. The animal is well behaved & seems to settle into your home like it's lived there for years.

Do you take it to the pound? Do you put up flyers? Do you simply keep it & love it like your own? What do you do? What should you do?

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I quite literally have a cat sitting in my room staring at me right this second, that came to be from this very scenario. Friends in the city had a stray start to show up. Asked around for a while, checked for a microchip, looked for Lost Cat signs - nada. A week or two after he first started showing up, we took him in, thinking he was ferral. When he came RUNNING at the sound of a cat food can opening, and his generally positive disposition around people - we knew he had been someone's pet.

Our options: 1 - Return him to the streets and hope his owners find him before he froze to death or died of some other cause.
2 - Post signs throughout the city hoping someone saw them and actually wanted him back, and actually owned him in the first place.
3 - Take him to the vet, get him checked out, and take care of him.

The obvious answer is #3 in my book. #1 is cruel, and #2 is a pipe dream. The friends that found him looked for missing cat signs, none were to be found. If you lost your cat and don't care enough to put up a few signs in the area, then you're probably not the best owner to begin with.

He's now chipped and collared, you know - responsible pet ownership.
-Kevin

People choose their pet dogs, cats choose who they will tolerate.

If you feed a cat they will most likely stick around. They do tend to have a rather large territory where they will wander. If signs dont result in anything and you are willing to take on the responsibilities, do adopt the animal.

gratus fermentatio said:

Here's a question:
Is it unethical to keep a stray cat/dog? No collar, no microchip ID, no clues whatsoever as to their owner, but it's obvious that until very recently the animal was taken care of by somebody. You like the animal a lot, maybe your kids like the animal a lot too. The animal is well behaved & seems to settle into your home like it's lived there for years.

Do you take it to the pound? Do you put up flyers? Do you simply keep it & love it like your own? What do you do? What should you do?

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First thing you do it call the local police departments and ask if they have any lost pet calls fitting that description.
The police won't confiscate the animal. They don't want a dog or cat. Nor do they want to send it to death row.
Then, call the local pound and ask whether anyone has called looking for such an animal (tho I don't know if the pound keeps track of such inquiries).

Take a drive around looking for flyers posted by the owner.
Check online "lost pet" resources. Tho I have not checked one before, I've heard they are out there.

Finally, check the feet of the pet (dogs in particular) to try and determine the distance it may have traveled.

If you do your due diligence and don't find an owner, certainly you could keep the pet ... understanding that if an owner becomes known, you have the obligation to return the pet if so requested ... even after a long period of time.

I was getting ready to go to work early in the morning a few weeks ago, and went out to go warm up the truck. I open the door, climb in and start the engine, and then suddenly, out of nowhere, this dog just climbs in the truck with me and sits down in the passenger seat, ready to go. Super excited and friendly.

It had a collar, but no tags. I kinda wanted to keep the dumb bastard, but I've already two cats and a snake that I don't want, so I couldn't justify another pet in our tiny house. Perhaps if the dog "took care of them" for me....

I made a brief attempt to locate the owner, but this was about several hours before dawn so nobody else was roaming the neighborhood. Had to wish him the best of luck and kick him out of the truck. Hopefully he found his way back home.

You took a pass on a truck dog? You heathen! I kid, sounds like a good dog though. I do hope it found its owners.

gratus fermentatio said:

Here's a question:
Is it unethical to keep a stray cat/dog? No collar, no microchip ID, no clues whatsoever as to their owner, but it's obvious that until very recently the animal was taken care of by somebody. You like the animal a lot, maybe your kids like the animal a lot too. The animal is well behaved & seems to settle into your home like it's lived there for years.

Do you take it to the pound? Do you put up flyers? Do you simply keep it & love it like your own? What do you do? What should you do?

Click to expand...

You'd inform dog rescue and similar type organizations of the animal found with pictures. Post an ad on craigslist at the very least. 99% chance someone is looking for their pet. If you just keep it it's no different than stealing it.