Yeast Starter Hiccups

So I decided to try using a yeast starter for the first time today, and to call my fermentation active would be an understatement. I was using a 2000 mL starter kit to use in a 5 gallon batch of American IPA I made.





The wort was even a bit below the 5 gallon mark in my 6.5 gallon carboy at pitching time.




Three hours later, this is what it looks like.

The thing blew the airlock and the bung off the carboy and had Krausen leaking all over the place by the time I had noticed the problem. I rigged up a makeshift bowoff tube setup out of my racking cane and some tubing I had, but I'm a little concerned. This is an estimated 6% ABV recipe, and I didn't expect fermentation to be even close to this active. Did I just overpitch, or is there some infection or something I should be worried about?

Help Please?

In case it's relevant, I used dry yeast with the starter. Would that be a problem?

I have 2 questions 1.How warm is it in the room your trying to ferment in? 2. How much yeast did you use The reason I ask is because if the wort is to warm and you over pitched you can have a very active fermentation.

My secondary is fermenting in the same room at 72 F. However, the fermometer on this one is not giving a reading. Not sure if that's because it got wet from the Krausen overflowing on it, or because it is too warm, but the carboy feels a bit warm to the touch (fermentation can give off heat, right?). I put several ice packs on it to hopefully cool it down.

I used one packet of Safale 04 with the starter kit. I think it was like 1 1/2 lbs of DME and some yeast nutrients in a 2000 mL solution?

My secondary is fermenting in the same room at 72 F. However, the fermometer on this one is not giving a reading. Not sure if that's because it got wet from the Krausen overflowing on it, or because it is too warm, but the carboy feels a bit warm to the touch (fermentation can give off heat, right?). I put several ice packs on it to hopefully cool it down.

I used one packet of Safale 04 with the starter kit. I think it was like 1 1/2 lbs of DME and some yeast nutrients in a 2000 mL solution?

With dry yeast you should almost never do a starter (I say almost because if I said "never" I'm sure someone much smarter than I would correct me). Rehydrate (or not) only. You have overpitched and are fermenting at around 80 degrees F. Cool down to range slowly (Ideally 60-68 degrees F IIRC) and give this some extra time to clean up after itself before bottling. This was certainly not ideal, but this is a relatively forgiving yeast, so it may not be too bad.

invictusbrew said:

With dry yeast you should almost never do a starter (I say almost because if I said "never" I'm sure someone much smarter than I would correct me). Rehydrate (or not) only. You have overpitched and are fermenting at around 80 degrees F. Cool down to range slowly (Ideally 60-68 degrees F IIRC) and give this some extra time to clean up after itself before bottling. This was certainly not ideal, but this is a relatively forgiving yeast, so it may not be too bad.

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+1

Yeast can create up to 10 degrees (in this case maybe more!) of heat above ambient temps. So its possible your fermenting well into the 80's. For S-04 I would recommend low-mid 60's. Also, I have read many times that not only is making a starter for dry yeast unnecessary, it can actually be detrimental. Finally, if the numbers you gave were correct, you used waaay too much DME. Generally 3-4 oz per liter of water is recommended. You used 3 times that amount. This means you have massively overpitched and also pitched unhealthy yeast because they were being poisoned by their own alcohol.

Not trying to beat you up here, just save your future batches from the same fate. There's a decent chance this beer will be horrible, but there is a chance that the overpitch will counteract the hot ferment and it might turn out ok. Either way let us know.

amcclai7 said:

+1

Yeast can create up to 10 degrees (in this case maybe more!) of heat above ambient temps. So its possible your fermenting well into the 80's. For S-04 I would recommend low-mid 60's. Also, I have read many times that not only is making a starter for dry yeast unnecessary, it can actually be detrimental. Finally, if the numbers you gave were correct, you used waaay too much DME. Generally 3-4 oz per liter of water is recommended. You used 3 times that amount. This means you have massively overpitched and also pitched unhealthy yeast because they were being poisoned by their own alcohol.

Not trying to beat you up here, just save your future batches from the same fate. There's a decent chance this beer will be horrible, but there is a chance that the overpitch will counteract the hot ferment and it might turn out ok. Either way let us know.

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Will do. Thanks for the feedback. The instructions that came with the starter were very bad then. That was the amount they told me to use, and dry yeast came with it. I did bring the temp down to around 70 this morning, but the stuff is still going crazy. I put more ice on it, but I won't be able to check it again until after work.

deerstream said:

Will do. Thanks for the feedback. The instructions that came with the starter were very bad then. That was the amount they told me to use, and dry yeast came with it. I did bring the temp down to around 70 this morning, but the stuff is still going crazy. I put more ice on it, but I won't be able to check it again until after work.

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Checked again, and it was actually a 1/2 pound of DME, but a full oz of yeast nutrients, which may be part of the problem from what I'm reading.

Update: My dad was willing to go by the house and cool the beer. It's now around 58-56. Overkill?

deerstream said:

Update: My dad was willing to go by the house and cool the beer. It's now around 58-56. Overkill?

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58 inside the fermentor or 58 ambient?

deerstream said:

Update: My dad was willing to go by the house and cool the beer. It's now around 58-56. Overkill?

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Yes. While you are still technically in the yeast's range (although not it's ideal range), you have dropped the temp a little quickly. Any temperature mishap, whether in fermentation or boil, or even mash (if you go all grain) should be handled slowly. In the case of fermentation, VERY slowly.

However, in saying this, I certainly don't think you have caused any more harm than over pitching and starting with such a high temp did. Learning lessons is all these are, and if I may say so, I believe we learn more from our mistakes than our successes - so in that regard, congrats!

Do what you can to stay within range for this yeast from here on out (looked it up, ideal range is 59-68 - try and stay in the middle of that as best as possible) and work on this aspect in the future. When I started brewing, I made lots of mistakes, and I am certainly not perfect now, but I always chose at least one thing to improve upon the next time. I would recommend you do the same and get used to the errors, it's a part of the hobby and makes it that much better when you do everything well.

Use the forums search function and do a search on swamp coolers. This is an inexpensive temperature controlling method that will do wonders for you in this regard. And as always, best of luck!

A few things...

What invictusbrew said about dry yeast - I am not a dry yeast guy.

I make starters all the time for my Wyeast paks. 1/2 pound of DME in a starter is still a bit too much. 200 grams in 2000 ml would be just about right (.44 lbs).

And a quarter tsp of yeast nutrient would be fine for 200ml.

But most importantly - it's dangerous to apply direct heat like that to your flask. It might not break this time, or next time, but you're introducing brittleness into it such that next time you mistakenly tap it against the sink while cleaning it will just shatter - hopefully not when it's full of boiling wort. Been though two already and got this advice from someone else on the board - hope this helps you.

philipmeese said:

A few things...

What invictusbrew said about dry yeast - I am not a dry yeast guy.

I make starters all the time for my Wyeast paks. 1/2 pound of DME in a starter is still a bit too much. 200 grams in 2000 ml would be just about right (.44 lbs).

And a quarter tsp of yeast nutrient would be fine for 200ml.

But most importantly - it's dangerous to apply direct heat like that to your flask. It might not break this time, or next time, but you're introducing brittleness into it such that next time you mistakenly tap it against the sink while cleaning it will just shatter - hopefully not when it's full of boiling wort. Been though two already and got this advice from someone else on the board - hope this helps you.

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Yeah, I actually ended up switching to a pan to boil and pouring it into the flask. Thanks for the new proportions. I'll be sure to use them next time.

invictusbrew said:

Yes. While you are still technically in the yeast's range (although not it's ideal range), you have dropped the temp a little quickly. Any temperature mishap, whether in fermentation or boil, or even mash (if you go all grain) should be handled slowly. In the case of fermentation, VERY slowly.

However, in saying this, I certainly don't think you have caused any more harm than over pitching and starting with such a high temp did. Learning lessons is all these are, and if I may say so, I believe we learn more from our mistakes than our successes - so in that regard, congrats!

Do what you can to stay within range for this yeast from here on out (looked it up, ideal range is 59-68 - try and stay in the middle of that as best as possible) and work on this aspect in the future. When I started brewing, I made lots of mistakes, and I am certainly not perfect now, but I always chose at least one thing to improve upon the next time. I would recommend you do the same and get used to the errors, it's a part of the hobby and makes it that much better when you do everything well.

Use the forums search function and do a search on swamp coolers. This is an inexpensive temperature controlling method that will do wonders for you in this regard. And as always, best of luck!

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I think he misread the fermometer. He told me 58 at work, but it was at 70 on my break and 70 when I got home. I'll try to knock it down a little. I'll give the swamp coolers a look. thanks!

One more question: When should I expect the Krausen to go down (if at all)?

deerstream said:

One more question: When should I expect the Krausen to go down (if at all)?

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The krausen should fall back into the beer over a few days after day 5-7 depending on the yeast/beer/phase-of-moon.

deerstream said:

I think he misread the fermometer. He told me 58 at work, but it was at 70 on my break and 70 when I got home. I'll try to knock it down a little. I'll give the swamp coolers a look. thanks!

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In that case, ensure that the fermometer is not in contact with the ice packs, etc. This can (as is probably obvious) skew your readings. Drop it a few more degrees and do your best to keep it around that temp and wait it out. Like I mentioned before, you are going to want to let this sit for a while before bottling to let the yeast clean up after what it did at those high temperatures. I would recommend another week or two on top of what the recipe calls for (if it says ferment for 3 weeks then bottle, go 4-5 instead).

You should expect it to stop fermentation at this scale within 24-48 hours after pitching, almost to the hour. This happens all the time with belgian strains for me, particularly if my apartment is above 70 degrees. Very frustrating.

Something that I have found works fairly well is to just let it go. Open the top off the carboy and open ferment. A problem that you are experiencing is that pressure buildup also is helping to fuel a faster fermentation. The krausen is getting stuck in the tubes (BTW, your tubes are going to be tossed... that is impossible to clean out) and backing up the air release. For the first two days or so, and if the problem exists in the future, an open fermentation is the way to go. Also, with so much gas being shoved out the top, you don't need to worry about contamination. Nothing is going to float and settle with such a violent fermentation.

BTW, for those wondering, specifically the OP but in general, the reason people don't make starters for dry yeast is purely economical. DME is expensive. So is liquid yeast. Buying two packets of liquid yeast is about 15$ or more, if shipped so buying one packet and spending 3$ or so for a starter makes sense. Using DME for a $2.50 packet of yeast that contains 3x as much as a liquid packet doesn't make sense. People just buy 2 packets of yeast. It is important to rehydrate the yeast because up to 50% of the yeast will die due to shock if you pitch it directly into wort. This is a little known fact and took a few years of experimenting to figure out but specifically to lagers, dry yeast is ideal (saflager s23 specifically) because the pitch rates demanded are so insanely high.

Ok, back again. It's been in the fermentor for about 3 weeks now. I took a sample and my hydrometer reading was good. It tasted fine, a little sweet for an IPA, but fine. Would it be ok to switch to a secondary now?

overkill.

it's a sliding scale. constant temperature is best. the yeast are going to do their job in a wide range of temperatures, just faster or slower.

invictusbrew said:

With dry yeast you should almost never do a starter (I say almost because if I said "never" I'm sure someone much smarter than I would correct me). Rehydrate (or not) only. You have overpitched and are fermenting at around 80 degrees F. Cool down to range slowly (Ideally 60-68 degrees F IIRC) and give this some extra time to clean up after itself before bottling. This was certainly not ideal, but this is a relatively forgiving yeast, so it may not be too bad.

Click to expand...

Why can't you do a starter with dry yeast?

you most certainly CAN make a starter for dry yeast.. However, you shouldn't for a number of reasons, including: the amount of yeast in dry yeast packs are much more than in liquid yeast, the yeast being freeze dried (to the best of my knowledge) to preserve them. This essentially puts them in a state of hibernation so to speak, and you only need to hydrate to wake them up. The reason it is not necessarily a good idea to toss dry yeast directly into your wort without hydrating is that you can potentially put them into shock - think tossing some poor unsuspecting soul into a gladiator ring who was sleeping mere seconds ago.

The details of all this can be found with a simple search on this forum, but this is the gist of it.

invictusbrew said:

Yes. While you are still technically in the yeast's range (although not it's ideal range), you have dropped the temp a little quickly.

Do what you can to stay within range for this yeast from here on out (looked it up, ideal range is 59-68 - try and stay in the middle of that as best as possible) and work on this aspect in the future.

Use the forums search function and do a search on swamp coolers. This is an inexpensive temperature controlling method that will do wonders for you in this regard. And as always, best of luck!

Click to expand...

I am very new to brewing myself by the friendly people here on the forums have helped me already improve my process by leaps and bounds.

As invictusbrew mention temperature control and slow changes is important to keeping the yeast happy.

The swamp cooler recommendation set me down the path of setting up two swamp coolers in my basement that during the summer stays between 68-71F ambient. I won't reply with a long winded reply as there are a lot of good threads on swamp coolers. Here's my initial setup with temperature sensors and aquarium heaters which will come in more handy in winter.

Don't get discouraged everyone on here will keep helping you refine your process. I'm on my 8th HME batch and just finished my first 5 gallon HME+grain+hops batch. Started a wine kit as well.

Here's my fledgling setup. It's best to do one fermenter per cooler.

Nyle said:

I am very new to brewing myself by the friendly people here on the forums have helped me already improve my process by leaps and bounds.

As invictusbrew mention temperature control and slow changes is important to keeping the yeast happy.

The swamp cooler recommendation set me down the path of setting up two swamp coolers in my basement that during the summer stays between 68-71F ambient. I won't reply with a long winded reply as there are a lot of good threads on swamp coolers. Here's my initial setup with temperature sensors and aquarium heaters which will come in more handy in winter.

Don't get discouraged everyone on here will keep helping you refine your process. I'm on my 8th HME batch and just finished my first 5 gallon HME+grain+hops batch. Started a wine kit as well.

Here's my fledgling setup. It's best to do one fermenter per cooler.

Click to expand...

That is a pretty technologically advanced swamp cooler setup! Very nice! I will also echo the helpfulness of folks here on this site. Some of them are jerks (so what if I am!?), but most of the people on this site are great and honestly just want to help each other as best they can. I am sure I will still be looking up various tips and tricks and best practices on this site 20 years from now! It's just a never-ending stream of great information.

deerstream said:

Ok, back again. It's been in the fermentor for about 3 weeks now. I took a sample and my hydrometer reading was good. It tasted fine, a little sweet for an IPA, but fine. Would it be ok to switch to a secondary now?

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You'll probably find that most folks on HBT don't secondary except for beers that need a long time to age or if you're racking onto fruit, oak, etc.

Since there were some issues with your fermentation, my advice would be to keep it simple and not use a secondary. If you need to dry hop, just throw the hops in your primary (many, many people do this - including me). I'm sure others with more knowledge will chime in, but that's my take!

deerstream said:

Ok, back again. It's been in the fermentor for about 3 weeks now. I took a sample and my hydrometer reading was good. It tasted fine, a little sweet for an IPA, but fine. Would it be ok to switch to a secondary now?

Click to expand...

You probably could move it over to a secondary. I don't do secondaries myself. Of course I'm not aging for a long time in the fermenter or using oak, etc. Since this is your first batch, I'd just leave it in the primary and only rack it when you bottle.

What temperature is it at now? If I had to take a guess since the temperature was swung around a bit and you say it still tastes sweet you might want to just keep the temperature stable a little longer and wait with in in the primary until 14 days have passed. Be careful how many times you open the bung hole now that primary fermentation is completed.

Just my thoughts. Still learning myself.

Nyle said:

You probably could move it over to a secondary. I don't do secondaries myself. Of course I'm not aging for a long time in the fermenter or using oak, etc. Since this is your first batch, I'd just leave it in the primary and only rack it when you bottle.

What temperature is it at now? If I had to take a guess since the temperature was swung around a bit and you say it still tastes sweet you might want to just keep the temperature stable a little longer and wait with in in the primary until 14 days have passed. Be careful how many times you open the bung hole now that primary fermentation is completed.

Just my thoughts. Still learning myself.

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Well, it's not my first batch. I wanted to move it to the secondary to dry hop, and to free up the primary (my secondary is a 5 gallon only, and I can't brew a full batch the way I can in my 6.5 gallon primary).


Do you mean 14 days from now? Because after tomorrow, it's going to have been in there for 21 days total.

invictusbrew said:

you most certainly CAN make a starter for dry yeast.. However, you shouldn't for a number of reasons, including: the amount of yeast in dry yeast packs are much more than in liquid yeast, the yeast being freeze dried (to the best of my knowledge) to preserve them. This essentially puts them in a state of hibernation so to speak, and you only need to hydrate to wake them up. The reason it is not necessarily a good idea to toss dry yeast directly into your wort without hydrating is that you can potentially put them into shock - think tossing some poor unsuspecting soul into a gladiator ring who was sleeping mere seconds ago.

The details of all this can be found with a simple search on this forum, but this is the gist of it.

Click to expand...

I've done three batches with dry yeast and did a yeast starter each time. I'm going to rehydrate instead of doing a starter on my next batch. I honestly thought that doing a starter was basically a 2 in 1 hydration step.

deerstream said:

Well, it's not my first batch. I wanted to move it to the secondary to dry hop, and to free up the primary (my secondary is a 5 gallon only, and I can't brew a full batch the way I can in my 6.5 gallon primary).


Do you mean 14 days from now? Because after tomorrow, it's going to have been in there for 21 days total.

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Not at all 14 days total for most non-high gravity brews is enough before bottling. At least in my early experience. What is the gravity now and what was the final supposed to be. Normally if the temperature is kept consistent 14 days is enough to bottle and my understanding is that you can dry hop in your primary.

At this point if you can check your gravity prior to racking to the secondary and confirm that you are at your target gravity, I think that would be best but again I'm still learning. Others will likely have additional advice.

invictusbrew said:

That is a pretty technologically advanced swamp cooler setup! Very nice! I will also echo the helpfulness of folks here on this site. Some of them are jerks (so what if I am!?), but most of the people on this site are great and honestly just want to help each other as best they can. I am sure I will still be looking up various tips and tricks and best practices on this site 20 years from now! It's just a never-ending stream of great information.

Click to expand...

That's a really nice system. Mine is just a tub with ice water haha

deerstream said:

That's a really nice system. Mine is just a tub with ice water haha

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Thanks I didn't want to steal the thread but thought I'd share. I built it from advice from the forums here. The controllers are STC1000s that are talked about here often. They work well, were cheap on eBay, and were easy to wire. I can add ice if needed but right now I'm doing brews that use yeast that's happy at 65F-68F which is where these coolers seem to stay even with an active ferment going on.

How's the brew coming along?

Well I ended up dry hopping in the secondary for a few weeks. Bottled yesterday. Sample tasted good. ABV was a little high than the recipe suggested, but given the nature of my quandary, that isn't surprising.