Second Steep - Good, Bad, No Effect?

Hi,

I'm brewing an extract kit for Rogue's Hazelnut Brown Nectar today. I have always brewed extract, and I've been trying to improve my techniques.

A few beers back I started heating my kettle water to 160 degrees, then pulling off a gallon of that into a small cooler for the steep. After 30 minutes, I pour the steep water back into the kettle, but the grain bag on a strainer, rinse it with half gallon of 160 degree water that I'd taken out of the kettle earlier, let the bag drain for 10 minutes, then proceed with the boil.

Some advantages to this method are that I can continue heating the water in my kettle, and I can add my first addition of DME / LME while the grains steep. All that reduces my time to boil after the steep is complete.

Anyway, in the middle of today's steep, I had the idea of steeping the grains a second time in the half-gallon of 160 degree water I'd already reserved for rinsing. So I steeped the grains a second time for 10 minutes and used a half-gallon of 175 degree water (I was already warming my kettle water further) to rinse the bag.

The second steep pulled a lot of additional color out of the grains, but. I'm wondering if there are any concerns with doing a second steep like that? I've read that you can extract tannins if you steep too long, but that doesn't appear to happen until well after an hour. If I use this practice in the future, would I be better off doing the first steep for 20 minutes (instead of 30), with a second steep for 10 minutes?

Thanks for your advice!

I've always steeped and even sparged twice, similarly to what you do. Almost like a small mash, alas without diastatic conversion.

It's actually very good to steep in a gallon rather than in 3-6 gallons of water. The buffering capacity of the steeping grains in a smaller volume will be more effective in keeping the pH below 6 (below 5.8 is ideal). If there's a significant portion of darker or roasted grains mixed in, the chances are the pH is well controlled. As long as you also keep the steeping temp below 170F (I keep it below 160F), the tannin extraction should be minimal.

I routinely keep darker crystal and roasts out of the mash to prevent cooked coffee flavors. They get steeped on the side during the mash/boil and added after the boil when the wort has chilled to 180F. I keep it there for 10 minutes, to pasteurize, and continue the chill. I often add whirlpool hops at lower temps, so this is just another part of the process.

I think you'll extract most of the goodness by steeping for 20-30 minutes followed by a 2nd steep/rinse for 5-10 minutes (like a batch sparge). I usually do a 3rd one for another 5 minutes.

There's good info on tannins in this article.

Thanks for all the great advice. The brown is bubbling away in the primary, so I'll see how it comes out in a month or so.

Thanks again!

Subscribed because of curiosity. Let us know how it turns out.

IslandLizard said:

I've always steeped and even sparged twice, similarly to what you do. Almost like a small mash, alas without diastatic conversion.

It's actually very good to steep in a gallon rather than in 3-6 gallons of water. The buffering capacity of the steeping grains in a smaller volume will be more effective in keeping the pH below 6 (below 5.8 is ideal). If there's a significant portion of darker or roasted grains mixed in, the chances are the pH is well controlled. As long as you also keep the steeping temp below 170F (I keep it below 160F), the tannin extraction should be minimal.

I routinely keep darker crystal and roasts out of the mash to prevent cooked coffee flavors. They get steeped on the side during the mash/boil and added after the boil when the wort has chilled to 180F. I keep it there for 10 minutes, to pasteurize, and continue the chill. I often add whirlpool hops at lower temps, so this is just another part of the process.

I think you'll extract most of the goodness by steeping for 20-30 minutes followed by a 2nd steep/rinse for 5-10 minutes (like a batch sparge). I usually do a 3rd one for another 5 minutes.

There's good info on tannins in this article.

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You don't need to leave your wort at 180 for 10 minutes to pasteurize. I believe that pasteurization take 10 seconds at 160. At 180 your late hop additions will continue to isomerize so you get more bittering and less flavor/aroma from them.

RM-MN said:

You don't need to leave your wort at 180 for 10 minutes to pasteurize. I believe that pasteurization take 10 seconds at 160. At 180 your late hop additions will continue to isomerize so you get more bittering and less flavor/aroma from them.

Click to expand...

Thanks, that's a really good point!

I tend to take the better sure than sorry approach, but 10 minutes at 180 is indeed overkill, so to speak.

I had to look it up, pasteurization temps depend on the pH. As you said, they are much, much shorter than 10 minutes at 180F, and are in the 10-20 second range at 160F for wort. For example, the milk pasteurization standard is 15 seconds at 161F. Apple juice at pH 4.0: 6 seconds at 160F; 0.3 seconds at 180F!

Not sure if fresh steeped dark grain will taste even better from a shorter heat treatment at 180F or even as low as 160F, but they definitely taste much better to me than if they were added to the mash or sparge, and thus boiled for an hour. I'll give it a try!

Yes, alpha acid isomerization is thought to happen above 170F. I adjust most recipes to include some sort of whirlpool/hopstand below 190F to get more benefit from "flameout hops." I've never bought into flameout hops without giving them at least enough time to extract flavors and aroma. How long is enough remains the question and the art of brewing.

Brownalemikie said:

Subscribed because of curiosity. Let us know how it turns out.

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I tapped this one last week and I think it turned out pretty good.

The color and flavor are a bit weak for my taste, I'm sure due to the fairly skimpy specialty grains this kit contained. If I brew this one again I think I'd use one of the clone recipes out there for this beer. The ones I've seen use quite a bit more specialty grains than the kit provided. That is the main reason I went for the second steep, trying to get everything out of what I had.

Per some other posts, I originally went with 0.5 oz of the hazelnut extract. I found that a little light so I added another 0.25 oz. That seems about right for this beer. A nice hazelnut aroma and an initial hazelnut taste that fades to a malt finish. I've never had the original but it sounds pretty close to their website description. If I had used more specialty grains, I might have gone with a full ounce of the extract. The kit came with a 2 ounce bottle, which would have overpowered everything if I'd just dumped that in.

I put this one on my nitro tap, so that is obviously effecting the aroma and flavor as well. My wife's initial impression was favorable, so I might finally have a nitro beer she'll drink! We'll see how it works out, but like I said, if I do this one again I'll skip the kit and just try a clone recipe.