Tips for the Infamous "super hoppy" IPA/IIPA

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Calichusetts

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I've seen so many threads on here with issues with homebrewers trying to commercial-level west-coast-style hop bombs I thought I would create this thread to post my tips and add others as people respond.

NOTE: I do not claim to be the worlds greatest brewer nor an expert on the techniques of hoppy beers, but out of my 100+ batches, almost 75%had hoppy intentions or were experiments to see the effects on hop flavor and profile. I am also extremely critical of my homebrews. I rate them compared to commercial examples no matter what the style, and especially for my IPA/IIPAs. I use untappd and would never score my beers higher than a commercial example and often compare them to the top examples when considering my ratings. Most of my buddies that try my beers give it more credit than I do but I sometimes ask them to compare it to commercial ones to level the playing field. With that said, My buddies and I have agreed that several were "shelf worthy" brews.

Finally, most of this info is out there on this site and the internet, I am merely consolidating a lot of this info and adding my experiences.

So here goes:

Tip #1: Experiment! Seriously, never settle with an "okay" or "decent" recipe. Try to switch something up the next time to see what happens. After I did more than a dozen SmaSh recipes to get my bearings I began building my first IPA recipe. I brewed the same "recipe" nearly 20 times. Each time I would switch something up: yeast, dry hop amount, hop schedule, slight changes to the grain bill, mash pH adjustments, water profiles, etc.

I learned a lot from this and noted what worked and what didn't...which leads to my second tip:

Tip #2: Get your system down as consistently as possible and keep immaculate records. They go hand-in-hand for the most part. I use beersmith so I actually have some help in this department but I also use a brew journal and record everything. I put my mash in the oven, it holds perfectly. That doesn't stop me from pulling it every 15 minutes and taking a temp reading. Write it down. The idea is that when you create the holy grail recipe, you know exactly what you did.

I use the EXACT same water amount each time. This usually leads to the exact same water levels and barring humidity, the exact same boil times. Unless I change some aspect of the grain bill during an experiment. Hit your hop additions to the minute and, for me, to the gram per addition. Don't trust that a 1 oz bag is actually 1 oz, weigh it out. Mill your grains within the same timeframe (day before, morning of) etc. You are just trying to be as consistent as commercial brewers are. You are also trying to keep things as consistent as possible so experiments really only focus on one change or aspect of brewing.

This is especially important when it comes to salt/acid additions which we will talk about later. Being off by a gram here or there can actually have a major effect on the final product.

Tip #3: Use your hops wisely. With the exception of some personal taste and bitterness preference, hops need to hit the wort at the very end. For some this is a FWH or 60 minute and then only late additions (20 minutes to flameout.) For others, its just a bittering addition and then flameout/hop steeps.

Heady topper does not boil a single hop. Firestone Walker gets more than 90% of their IBUs from a whirlpool addition. Think about that. They are basically backing up a dump truck full of hops POST BOIL to get their IBUs and of course, flavor and aroma. For me personally, 75% of my hops hit the wort post boil, this gets the job done for me. And so people don't ask: I prefer a small FWH addition so that timing is unnecessary, and then 4 additions at 20 minutes, 15, 10 and 5. The rest is for flameout, hop steep, and dry hopping.

Tip #4: Single hop experiments. Basically tip #1 and #3 together. Understand the hops you are using. While this site is amazing, personal taste is a HUGE part of homebrewing. One person gets hints of pine from a hop, while another thinks its a soapy mess. You really need to take the time and get to know the major and most useful hops. It was torture to do it at the start, but know I have a really good sense of the hops I like and great notes if I forget. With a go-to simple IPA grain bill for single hop experiments, you can really get a good grasp of any new or experimental hop. I actually don't do a FWH in this scenerio, just late additions, flameout and dry hopping. Still, get a grasp of what you like and stick with it.

Another thing you will learn from this is the potency of some hops. Not all hops are created equal. Some will take over when paired with another hop and some are simply so unique that they will attract the attention of the drinker more than other aspects of the brew (Nelson is the example for me, its so unique that I really feel like it takes a lot of work to correctly pair with other hops.) Hops like Citra are so popular because they are so potent. They shine, they punch you in the nose. Others are more subtle. Learn and apply this knowledge.

The final point on this is not often talked about...the harvest. Some hops simply do better than others year to year. I would probably still buy 2012 summit over 2013. Some got garlic/onion in 2012, a lot of people got a fantastic tangerine, and boy was it potent. 2013 was an onion/garlic mess. I consistently picked it up in commercial examples as well. Just know that Cascade or any other hop will change year to year and you may say "what happened" when you brew your go-to hop-bomb, but it might not be anything you did.

And remember that good hop storage is a must. The fresher the better, but many do not have an option in this area unless you grow your own.

Tip #5: Science! Yes, we are talking about mash pH and water profiles specifically. I think there really is a sweet spot for hoppy beers in terms of both of these subjects. For mash pH, I'd say its 5.4 to 5.6. For me personally, its 5.45. I watched the Brew & Chop episode on heady topper and a mash pH range of 5.1 - 5.3 was mentioned for the best environment for hoppy beers. I immediately brewed two beers under 5.2, a couple in the 5.2 range and one 5.35. They were a mess...muted, yeast forward. Someone later email and learned that this was not the correct temp for a pH reading and it translated to basically the standard range. Lesson learned.

In terms of your water profile. The cleaner and more "pure" the better. Get yourself a water report. Or you can use RO or spring water; just make sure it hits the following parameters.

First, make sure the pH and buffering capacity of your water allows for an easy drop to the optimal mash pH range. Acidulated malt or other acids can assist this but don't create more work than you need.

Next, be careful of a couple crucial elements of your water profile. Calcium and chloride levels should be kept average to low in order to not highlight the malts. Most importantly, sulphates promote hop bitterness, aroma and flavor and some prefer them extremely high, 300+ like heady topper. But above 150-200ppm will give you additional help in the hop department. I'll finish by leaving my two favorite sources for this matter and very helpful to beginners in this area of brewing:

http://www.howtobrew.com/section3/chapter15-1.html

http://www.brewersfriend.com/mash-chemistry-and-brewing-water-calculator/

Tip #6: Yeast. Unless you are after something unique, a clean yeast gets you the best results. There are many yeasts that can do this, I will mention a few. Most importantly is to ensure that you can maintain and control fermentation temps. At the very least, this is swamp cooler, hopefully in a basement. At best, this is a fermentation cooler/fridge with probes to monitor and change temperatures.

Nottingham works very well at 60-63. Clean, neutral and a work horse. Chico does well at 65-68, same results. And San Diego Super Yeast will get you similar results at the same temps, sometimes higher. Even for basic brewers, you can choose a yeast that works best for the ambient temps you have. Just know that fermentation is exothermic and will be higher than ambient. In other words, I know I can use Notty at sub-60 temps because the fermentation will actual be 3-5 degrees higher. If you can ramp up the temp at or after high krausen, do so. Most of the cleaner yeast are due to using them at the low end of the spectrum, which may stall fermentation or give you a higher FG. Ramping them up usually gets you to where you need to be.

As always, proper pitching rates need to be ensured. Starters, rehydration, oxygen systems, whatever you do...make sure it works within the framework of the OG.

Tip #7: Grain Bill. Keep it simple and clean. Some prefer 100% 2-row or pale malt. Some even use pilsner malt, including well known commercial breweries I've had good success with 2-to-1 pale/pilsner grain bills. Keep it hidden but not too light that you just made hop juice as I like to call it. I get that this style is unbalanced but don't leave the malt backbone out completely. Around 5% crystal seems to be a standard, though many prefer it dry and drop it all together. 5-10% munich or victory seem to be the go-to for addition malt backbone. Every one will have their personal preference, which comes back to tip #1...experiment. Be careful with sweeter malts and mash temps, if you like dry IPAs, keep both low. Vice versa. I was a Pale ale malt guy for a long time but have recently switched to equal parts Marris otter, pearl, golden promise, halcyon. I get that this goes against my "simple" advice, but at this point, my experimenting takes me to interesting places.

Don't be afraid to use some adjunct/sugars to get you to your OG. I prefer it low, like 1-3% but am a huge fan of dark brown sugar. Again, its my personal preference but these can be used to thin out a beer at a higher mash temp, 153 and up and give it a nice "kick" in terms of complexity. This can help to keep the taste simple, light and crisp and allow the drinker to focus on the the hop profile, or at least, not detract to much from it.

Tip #8: Whirlpool/Steep/Hop Tea: I realize I have casually mentioned whirlpooling and hop steeping without actually spelling out what this is. Basically, the amazing aromas and flavors we get from hops are actually oils (humulene, myrcene, etc) that will boil off at high temps. By dropping the temperature of your wort, they actually steep into the beer. When we get below 180, the oils will simply come out of the hops and into the wort, a lot like making tea. Some steep for 15 minutes, some 30, some longer. You know the drill: experiment

Some homebrewers will chill the beer to 180 then add a hop steep, usually a decent size , I'd say it should be at or double the amount you usually dry hop with. Others add some at flameout, let it slowly cool to 180, then add the other half. Finally, some quickly chill to 150 or 140 then do a hop stand. Just note that temps above 170 will have some isomerization. Meaning, they will contribute some bitterness, around 10-15% of the numbers of boil additions

What's with the temps? Experience homebrewers will have "DMS" running through their heads right now. There are examples of people not chilling at all and have no issues with the dreaded "corn" taste this produces. Nonetheless, there is a workaround. SMM is the compound that produces DMS. It is "boiled off" 50% every 40 minutes of a boil. So a 90 minute boil gets rid of about 80% of your possible issue. I prefer longer boils anyway due to my thinner mashes and ability to get something done during the boil, like bottling or kegging. A rapid chill stops the release of DMS as well but we can't do that with a hopstand, until under 160. Therefore, some quickly chill to low temps to stop this DMS release and then do a hop stand. Longer boils can help but a quickly chill leads to cold break and a clearer beer. Is there another option?

Yes, its called a hop tea. Same idea but usually done for bottling or a secondary. Simply recreate the same situation with water and do a hop stand. I boil a cup of water for a few minutes then let it cool to 180, or whatever temp you prefer. Pour it into a french press like this one:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0015VTR48/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

Let it steep for as long as you want. Don't "press" the hops into the bottom, let them float in there and agitate it from time to time. When ready, push the plunger down and add the water to your bottling bucket. Done, same effect, no issues. I've done one in a secondary and bottling with great results. You can even throw in some spices or citrus zest too.

Tip #9: Dry hopping: The ever elusive and subjective topic. There has been some more scientific research coming out over the last few years but this is really up in the air. I, unfortunately, have to generalize and say the best results are usually 3-7 days of dry hopping. Personally, I do 4-5 days but the week long dry hops have produced the "shelf worthy" brews I mentioned at the start.

As for amounts. Keeping in mind we want a super hoppy brew, I would say at or above 1 oz PER GALLON works best. People will chime in how they use more or less and get the results they want. Again, it will be up to your personal taste. Personally, I like 1.3 - 2 oz PER GALLON to get the punch in terms of aroma. I can literally smell my brews after I crack a bottle, let alone pour it. If you follow the other tips, you should be laughing at how hoppy your beers are. Grassiness has been the mythical unicorn I have never come across, so others can chime in with their experience.

I really don't want to spark any trouble or intense debate with this thread, but I do have to say that using a secondary has produced some of the best results. I just did around 15 batches of a primary only and I was not as pleased. I can't explain it, nor provide the science, but it simple worked best for me to use a secondary. Maybe its the idea of having less yeast around? I am not trying to push people in any direction, but I would try both and take notes on what you produce.

Purge if you can, though I don't. Nonetheless, avoiding, oxygen is your best route here. If you keg, maybe halve the additions and hit it up 3-5 days prior to kegging and then throw the rest in the keg. Many have reported great results with double dry hopping and multiple additions. There are so many good results that I can't say what percentages work or what days. But there is a growing consensus that two is better than one. Bag or no bag? No difference as far as I have learned. Go with what you are comfortable with and enjoy doing. All this leads to my final tip...

Tip #10: SPEED IT UP! There is no need to go more than 4-5 weeks grain-to-glass unless its really up there in terms of ABV. If you follow the 8 other tips, there really shouldn't be that mythical "green" or "young" beer flavor. First, the hops will cover it up. Next, you shouldn't even be in that position if you have good brew practices and techniques. Depending on the OG, yeast, and batch size, you should have a finished beer a week after high krausen drops. What I mean by that is you can start your dry hop then and give it 3-7 days till bottling or kegging. I have had zero issues with this and find using a bag and marbles actually get the yeast to stir up a little and along with a temp ramp, get things moving again. I'd be a little more cautious with using a secondary but taking a sample is a foolproof way to good brewing.

Just remember that a lot of commercial breweries begin the stages of dry hopping at the tail end of fermentation, not after. If it has a few points to go, depending on the yeast, you should be safe to begin dry hopping. I've had beer, bottled, fully carbed and a few days in the fridge less than a month from brew date. And I would avoid cold crashing. After all is said and done, your beer should be somewhat hazy anyways, so who cares. We are after the hops right? With good practices, good water, yeast nutrient, whirlfloc/irish moss, you should be where you need to be in terms of clarity at bottling/kegging. A few days for bottles, or a week in a keg, should get you the best results you will get in terms of clarity, Most importantly, it should be hoppy as ever! There was an article in zymurgy, if I am correct, on how filtering/cold crashing could pull the hop oils out of the beer as the yeast drops, so avoid it if possible. But you do want as much of the yeast as possible out of the beer. Your choice on this one.



NOTE: I do not claim to be the best, hoppy brewer on earth. Nor are the recipes I have the end-all/be-all of IPAs/IIPAs. I just wanted to consolidate the best practices of hoppy brewing in one thread and have others add to it as a "go-to" place on this amazing site. We see so many thread and issues with this subject that I wanted to make a "Headquarters" for information. Let me know where I am wrong and your experiences, I will add them and edit as we go.

Good luck,
Cali
 
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I'm going to use this post, if its okay, to add any addition information we gleam from this discussion. Good night...
 
I'll be doing some IPAs in the nearish future. Getting in early so I can follow the discussion here and get some pointers in advance of those brewdays.
 
Awesome write up! I will probably be changing a couple things I do based on this. I've made some good IPAs and some so-so ones. I'm still chasing a great IPA. But I've also only brewed 10 IPAs (including black IPAs and DIPAs) and only 6 all grain IPAs and never the same recipe twice (stupid I know).

Calcium and chloride levels should be kept average to low in order to not highlight the malts.
This part confuses me. How do you get the high sulfate levels without the calcium? You can use magnesium sulfate, but then the Mg gets too high.

Thanks again for the write up.
 
Uhhhhh...........*drools*.......uhhhhhhhhhhhhh.....input....over....looooooooaaaad............


Awesome tips. Thanks!

Write a book. This is too much info for a noob to ingest....HELL, it is too much good info for me to ingest!

I will try to clear my head and return.
 
Its just something to consider...if you are high in calcium to start you might consider epsom salt. You can even dilute with RO water then use gypsum. Gypsum increases sulphates-to-calcium at a little over 2-to-1. You can easily get into the 300+ range for sulphate while keeping calcium in the middle

Its not the end-all for brewing but every bit helps
 
Its just something to consider...if you are high in calcium to start you might consider epsom salt. You can even dilute with RO water then use gypsum. Gypsum increases sulphates-to-calcium at a little over 2-to-1. You can easily get into the 300+ range for sulphate while keeping calcium in the middle

Its not the end-all for brewing but every bit helps
My water starts with 30 ppm Ca and 54 ppm SO4.

To put some numbers around it, if I'm targeting 300 ppm SO4 with my water, I would add 1.67 g/gal gypsum, which gets me to 132.5 ppm Ca and 300 ppm SO4.

If I used 100% distilled, I would use 2.03 g gypsum to get me to 300 ppm SO4 and 125 ppm Ca.

Obviously that small amount of extra Ca isn't going to make a difference, so that's why I just go with my tap water.

I only used MgSO4 once and I didn't love that beer. Obviously it could be something else, so if you think that's a good idea, I would try again. Adding MgSO4 to get to 30 ppm Mg and then adding the remaining sulfate in gypsum gets me to 97.9 ppm Ca and 300 SO4, so perhaps I should be doing that to reduce the Ca??
 
This needs to be a sticky for beginners! Will def help answer a LOT of questions on here. (Well that is if they read it lol)
 
My water starts with 30 ppm Ca and 54 ppm SO4.

To put some numbers around it, if I'm targeting 300 ppm SO4 with my water, I would add 1.67 g/gal gypsum, which gets me to 132.5 ppm Ca and 300 ppm SO4.

If I used 100% distilled, I would use 2.03 g gypsum to get me to 300 ppm SO4 and 125 ppm Ca.

Obviously that small amount of extra Ca isn't going to make a difference, so that's why I just go with my tap water.

I only used MgSO4 once and I didn't love that beer. Obviously it could be something else, so if you think that's a good idea, I would try again. Adding MgSO4 to get to 30 ppm Mg and then adding the remaining sulfate in gypsum gets me to 97.9 ppm Ca and 300 SO4, so perhaps I should be doing that to reduce the Ca??

There is nothing wrong with being over 100 with Ca, even up to 150 is acceptable. What you are doing is drawing the flavors to the malts instead of the the hops. Your final profile you suggest looks good for me. Just be aware some people don't like sulphate levels that high, and some like it even higher than 300. As long as you can get above 200ppm, you've really started to help the hoppiness of the beer. There is another thread that shows Heady Topper at 750!

EDIT: Remember, its not the end-all be-all for any one of the suggestions. Combining them will really help you get something outrageous in the hop department. People will chime in that their levels are different and they can get the same results. I've done it before with no salt additions so its possible.
 
Extract for bitterness. All hops are flameout/whirlpool
Got it thanks. Just got my hands on some extract so will be using it for my second attempt at the HT clone.

There is nothing wrong with being over 100 with Ca, even up to 150 is acceptable. What you are doing is drawing the flavors to the malts instead of the the hops. Your final profile you suggest looks good for me. Just be aware some people don't like sulphate levels that high, and some like it even higher than 300. As long as you can get above 200ppm, you've really started to help the hoppiness of the beer. There is another thread that shows Heady Topper at 750!

EDIT: Remember, its not the end-all be-all for any one of the suggestions. Combining them will really help you get something outrageous in the hop department. People will chime in that their levels are different and they can get the same results. I've done it before with no salt additions so its possible.
Thanks for the info. I've definitely been following that HT thread.
 
This is all great info. Do you have any specific recipes that you like to brew. I love really hoppy beers that aren't sweet, but have a hard time brewing them. I suppose these tips apply for hoppy "session IPAs" as well?
 
Recipe time: Please note, these are not the "perfect" recipe but ones I prefer so tweak them as you need. Someone mentioned a dry IPA, I would just drop the caramel malts completely and replace them with the base malt. Most will also drop the mash temp but I prefer a little more body as well.

IPA: 1 gallon recipe. I figure this will be the easiest for people to scale and change as needed.

Water profile:
CA: 53
MG: 21
NA: 3.5
Cl: 1.5
SO: 198
HCO: 14

Change the sulphates as needed to taste but note the changes to pH as you add the salts. I get up in the 230s now but this worked:

Gypsum: 1.5 grams
Epson: 1.5 grams

Grain Bill: This was a little more complicated than I now do. I do prefer equal parts carapils and wheat for head and body but this is really not need with the caramel malts in the original recipe. I still like it though.

Pale ale malt: 2 lbs or 76%
Caramel malts: 1 oz each of 20, 60, 120 for 7% Change to your taste and lower for a drier beer
Carapils/Flaked wheat: 1 oz each for 4%
Dark brown sugar: 1 oz for 2%
Munich: 4 oz for 10%

The malt bill changes all the time. I've subbed the munich for victory, did both at 5%, and dropped them completely. My latest was an equal mix of pearl, MO, golden promise and halcyon. No caramel or munich. Just that 4% mix of carapils/wheat I enjoy. This weekend is straight up MO with the carapils/wheat. Amarillo only. When I did my New Zealand experiments this fall, I sessionized it and dropped the caramel and munich. Replaced both with pilsner. I found that a lighter grain bill matched the delicate NZ hops better.

Hop Bill: I would lose the summit if its this years harvest. I have also replaced cascade with citra over the years but really like both

FWH:
Centennial, 1 gram for 10 IBU

Late additions at 20, 15, 10 and 5 minutes:
1 gram EACH of centennial, citra, summit

This is now about 2/3 of an ounce in the boil (28 grams = 1 oz)

Flameout:
17 grams each of centennial, citra, summit (Almost 2 ounces) I now whirlpool/steep as well but back them I would take the remaining hops and make a hop tea and add it to the secondary before transfer

This ends up being close to 2 oz at flameout. I regularly go lower now. Usually 1/2 ounce at flameout, and then I place the kettle in my sink with cold water to get it to drop to under 180 in about 15 minutes. Then I'll toss an ounce in and put it on a towel. Stirring often while I get my yeast and real ice bath ready (20-30 minutes)

I also add the zest of an orange, tangerine and grapefruit at this point. Whirlpool for about 15 minutes before a quick chill, I used to go to the store right next to me and get ice for an ice bath.

Dry hop:
1/2 ounce each of centennial, citra, summit

In all, this is just shy of 4 oz. With the hop tea, 4 ounces. I like to keep it around there so I don't have any loose pellets leftover. You can easily do this with 3 ounces and get pretty insane results. And I have a little over 10% of my hops in the boil...the rest is post boil. You can use far less in the dry hop if you do multiple additions or keg.


Fermentation:

001 at 63 ambient. Krausen dropped on day 4, ramped up the ambient to 66 and gave it a week then dry hopped a week. I now do 4 days. Bottle. 2 weeks later I try the first bottle. That is a maximum of 32 days grain-to-glass. Never had carbonation issues or "green" beer. No clarity issues either and no irish or whirlfloc.

Specifics:
OG of 1.068 with a 70% system
FG around 1.013
IBUs at 77 (If you use beersmith you will get something outrageous, like 200+) I don't like their new whirlpool calculator and this is hardly a bitter beer. Its got a slight bite that I like but that is it.
Mash pH of 5.43
ABV of 7.2%

To sessionize this, I would drop the brown sugar, though I do like it. Then just use the percentages to scale to whatever OG you want.

Sadly, this is the only pic I could scrape up of the original batch. You can see its not even that hazy and I didn't use Irish moss/whirfloc or cold crash:

8f0b5586922b850244627fd68b8b6ae3_640x640.jpg
 
I definitely agree with the whirlpool calculator on Beersmith. I usually just ignore flameout IBU's on IPA's and such.

Great info, I look forward to more discussion.
 
Good stuff. Only thing I would suggest you elaborate on is total hops used per batch. You mention some details in the dry hops paragraph, but there's no getting around it, you have to use alot. I find 2oz/G doable, but if you are talking IIPA hop bomps, you can easily double that.

I love using my own hop blends and changing them slightly each brew. Here is a blend technique that works for me. Make your hop blend 50% of your favorite hop, then 25% of something new you wanna try, and 25% something old laying around. This way, you are basically guaranteed a "success" and can try something different. Surprisingly, some of noble types (liberty/sterling/mt hood) work rather well in a blend like this. Also keeps the cost down...

A hop schedule I really like is 15m, 30m hopstand, dry hop, 4oz per, scale batch up to 6G for hop debris.
 
3-4 oz per gallon seem to be the standard for hop bombs...with most coming post boil.

I just bite the bullet and brew up a Single hop pale ale with most new hops. I really want to know its characteristics without much interference.
 
I just bite the bullet and brew up a Single hop pale ale with most new hops. I really want to know its characteristics without much interference.

No doubt the best way.

Forgot to mention the key to my hopstand is stirring regularly.
 
I really like Columbus Brewing Company's Bodhi; the brewer said he uses Canadian Pilsner malt, a bit of Vienna, and corn sugar. It's a blonde straw color, dry and crisp, and has amazing aroma and taste. Do you have any recipes where you use a simple grain bill with Pilsner malt or a combo of 2-row/pilsner? Maybe the one posted above could be tweaked to use some pilsner malt in lieu of all the 2-row.


Edit: I just reread your post of the recipe and you said you made it with pilsner.

With this small amount of Pilsner is it necessary to do 90 min boil to drive off DMS?
 
I really like Columbus Brewing Company's Bodhi; the brewer said he uses Canadian Pilsner malt, a bit of Vienna, and corn sugar. It's a blonde straw color, dry and crisp, and has amazing aroma and taste. Do you have any recipes where you use a simple grain bill with Pilsner malt or a combo of 2-row/pilsner? Maybe the one posted above could be tweaked to use some pilsner malt in lieu of all the 2-row.


Edit: I just reread your post of the recipe and you said you made it with pilsner.

With this small amount of Pilsner is it necessary to do 90 min boil to drive off DMS?

More and more breweries use pilsner malt. Stone's 17th Anniversary Götterdämmerung IPA was all pilsner I believe

Due to my thin mash and system...I am usually boiling for 75-90 minutes anyway. I've done 60 without issues too though.
 
I never stir when i put in my flameout hops. Should i start stirring for better hop oil extraction?

YES! I saw a dramatic improvement from stirring (which is why I posted). I would have never believed until I tried it once. I stir a few times during the stand and get big whirlpool going and put the lid back on. I am not saying the more stirring yields more extraction per se but if you just throw hops in there they just float to the top... Stirring keeps them in suspension.

I have done hop stands high and low temp (<185F) long (90m) and short (15m) and I think the 30m (stirred) is the best "value". I think hotter focuses on hop flavor and cooler on aroma.

Personally, I think Pils malts are well modified and very similar to 2 row base domestic type malts. I say use what you can get cheap by the sack since you are spending serious coin on the hops...
 
So can you list your exact hop stand steps?

Mine has been to put in the chiller with 10-15 mins left in boil. At flame out cool to around 180F and stop chiller. Add in whirlpool hops in hop spider with chiller still in there and put lid sort of on, but it can't completely cover it due to the spider and chiller. And then stir a couple times and maybe stand for 20 mins or so.

Would I be better off removing the chiller and spider so that I can get the cover on completely? Could I still put the hops in a mesh bag? Or do you just throw them in loose?
 
And it goes something like this...

Throw IC in @ 20m to KO. Add 15m hops @ 15m. Add whirlfloc @ 10m. Remove IC and place in sanitized pot at 5m to KO. At KO, kill flame, get a big whirlpool going and chuck hop pellets in and place lid on kettle. Clean up a little and after 5-10 minutes stir hard again, replace lid, and repeat a few times for 30 minutes total. (temps stay OVER 190F during the hopstand) Remove lid and use IC and chill to pitch temps ASAP. Pour EVERYTHING into the fermenter, pitch yeast, shake, etc.

IMO the lid is pretty critical for trapping the hop volatiles in the wort, in addition I would think hop spiders and hop bags might hinder things.
 
It's an excellent writeup. There are many many things I agree with, so for the sake of brevity, I'm only going to list my dissent on a couple of things. Also, I'm with ya OP, not trying to start any arguments, but the thread is great and deserves this discussion IMHO:

1)the secondary statement, which, I think it's interesting you've got nothing but anecdote to back your statement, but I won't hold your feet to the fire on that since you were very clear that you were merely relating your own anecdotal experience. Mine is that there is absolutely no difference whatsoever for hoppy beers other then maybe a little faster clearing, but you went on to say not to worry about cold crashing so...anyway...my take is that secondary is just one more step to introduce the biggest killer of all homebrew hoppy beers: Oxygen.

2)SD Super is recommended at 65-68. I have used it extensively. At warmer then those temps (001 by comparison is 65-73 recommended) it will put off esters. I recently tasted one that I purposely fermented at 72 with a BJCP Grandmaster judge, and without prompting he cited the esters. As you said, it's important to know your temps for your yeast, so I'll add my expertise on this one: ferment at 64-65 and it gets done quickly and cleanly. Ferment at 67-68 and it gets done explosively fast, but with traces of esters. Ferment it at 63 and it slows CONSIDERABLY.

I love your post and this is one topic I want to be involved in discussing, because my experience is similar to yours and I do consider myself an experienced hoppy beer brewer. Of my 80 batches, 60+ of them were hoppy beers, and I learned exactly as you have. There's another thread that focuses on hopstands here that I think is relevant to some of the followup questions you've been asked. :mug:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/hop-stand-408227/index3.html

As I said in that thread, I cool to 170 (back then it was 160 or so) to ward off any DMS formation before covering the kettle.

That's another polarizing topic, but I've tasted DMS in many beers that use highly modified malts, including commercial beers, and discussed one them with the Brewmaster who agreed with me. Factor in that many modern WC style IPA recipes call for Pilsner malt, and DMS is not a boogeyman. It does exist. So keep that in mind.
 
3-4 oz per gallon seem to be the standard for hop bombs...with most coming post boil.

This seems like a lot of hops. I'm curious about the methods you use to get this much hops into a batch. With my standard 6-gallon batch, that would be 24 oz of hops. I dry-hopped my last batch by directly adding 3 oz of pellets (no bag) and it was so dense with hop debris, I had a hard time getting them to actually drop down into the beer. They just floated on top. I tried gently swirling the carboy from time to time to get them to drop down into the wort, but they'd just float back up after a few minutes. I lost about a gallon to hop debris. How the heck do you manage to actually stuff 24 oz into a 6-gallon batch? Even if you put let's say 8 oz into FWH and late additions/hopstand, that'd still be a full pound for dry hopping!
 
This seems like a lot of hops. I'm curious about the methods you use to get this much hops into a batch. With my standard 6-gallon batch, that would be 24 oz of hops. I dry-hopped my last batch by directly adding 3 oz of pellets (no bag) and it was so dense with hop debris, I had a hard time getting them to actually drop down into the beer. They just floated on top. I tried gently swirling the carboy from time to time to get them to drop down into the wort, but they'd just float back up after a few minutes. I lost about a gallon to hop debris. How the heck do you manage to actually stuff 24 oz into a 6-gallon batch? Even if you put let's say 8 oz into FWH and late additions/hopstand, that'd still be a full pound for dry hopping!

I'm saying 3 - 4 oz TOTAL. For me, it's 2 oz max PER GALLON. in the dry hop. And that is a pretty big amount. For 6 gallon recipes, you should consider 4-5 oz total in the boil. 8-12 at flameout or a hop stand. Leaving at most 12 ounces for a dry hop. Consider two separate additions as well.

The secondary is just an observation. I'm giving primary only one more try but it's just not working for me

Hop stands are often done from 180 - 160 but I find a flameout addition work just as well

EDIT- I use hop bags with marbles to contain them but I can see how that is problematic at larger batch sizes

Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew
 
I'm giving primary only one more try but it's just not working for me

Seems arbitrary and dogmatic. To quote you:

Tip #1: Experiment!

To me that means keep an open mind. I'm not the only one who's had great success without secondaries. I have tried both ways, but secondaries for most homebrewers just mean doubling up on one of the most dangerous events in the homebrew process, racking.

But we all have to be comfortable with our own process, so even though this whole thread is about improving each others' processes...that's the last I'll say on the subject. It's not that kind of a thread.
 
And it goes something like this...

Throw IC in @ 20m to KO. Add 15m hops @ 15m. Add whirlfloc @ 10m. Remove IC and place in sanitized pot at 5m to KO. At KO, kill flame, get a big whirlpool going and chuck hop pellets in and place lid on kettle. Clean up a little and after 5-10 minutes stir hard again, replace lid, and repeat a few times for 30 minutes total. (temps stay OVER 190F during the hopstand) Remove lid and use IC and chill to pitch temps ASAP. Pour EVERYTHING into the fermenter, pitch yeast, shake, etc.

IMO the lid is pretty critical for trapping the hop volatiles in the wort, in addition I would think hop spiders and hop bags might hinder things.
Thanks much! I've been thinking about it and I have always put in the IC at 15 mins to sanitize it, but I have heard of people just keeping it in starsan until the end of the boil and then putting it in. I see that you are removing yours at the end just to put it in sanitizer. Perhaps the boil kills more bugs, but wouldn't it make sense to just leave it in sanitizer until the end of boil and then drop it in? The temp would immediately drop some too, so that's an added bonus.
 
To me that means keep an open mind. I'm not the only one who's had great success without secondaries. I have tried both ways, but secondaries for most homebrewers just mean doubling up on one of the most dangerous events in the homebrew process, racking.

But we all have to be comfortable with our own process, so even though this whole thread is about improving each others' processes...that's the last I'll say on the subject. It's not that kind of a thread.

Agreed...I went to primary and loved the ease of it. I actually think the experiment for me will be going back to the secondary. If its the same, then as you state, why risk it. Though the risks may be overblown. Get the tube in horizontal and you will have very little issues. I'm a sanitation freak so I'm not concerned there. I got a few barleywines getting on over a year with no signs of oxidation after I oaked in a secondary, so I'm not too concerned.

Thanks for clearing that up. I didn't want to ask for fear of coming off stupid, but yeah a pound and half in dry hop would have been like $30 also!

Anyway, perhaps you should go back and edit that post to avoid confusion.

I'm going to do a little editing right now. Add a few more points on whirlpooling and then send this off to txbrew to make it into an article. Just took my "hop porn" pic so I think it will be nice.

I'm also going to add a little bit more on making a hop tea. Totally forgot to add this and its basically a hop steep post-fermentation. I have like the results in the past but have not done it in quite some time.
 
Updated...added a new "tip" on whirlpool/steep as I feel that needed to be spelled out more. Also talked about my hop tea experiments I used to do about a year ago.

Figure the only thing missing is mash hopping, which I have never done. Any ideas or experiences?
 
Updated...added a new "tip" on whirlpool/steep as I feel that needed to be spelled out more. Also talked about my hop tea experiments I used to do about a year ago.

Figure the only thing missing is mash hopping, which I have never done. Any ideas or experiences?

Heard from Gordon Strong on a Beersmith interview that it's a waste of time. That's all I know.
 
Thanks much! I've been thinking about it and I have always put in the IC at 15 mins to sanitize it, but I have heard of people just keeping it in starsan until the end of the boil and then putting it in. I see that you are removing yours at the end just to put it in sanitizer. Perhaps the boil kills more bugs, but wouldn't it make sense to just leave it in sanitizer until the end of boil and then drop it in? The temp would immediately drop some too, so that's an added bonus.

The IC just rests in my 5G pot with a little bit sanitizer in it and is not submerged. I prefer to boil it to know I got it but soaking in sanitizer would work too.

I tried 2 low temp (180F) drop hop stands and I did not like the results at all. I did 30 and 60 minutes. All my testing was done on batches where there were no other additions or dry hop, only a 1lb hop stand. It all depends on the hops and what you want from the hop stand... I want intense hop flavor. Any additional aroma is nice but is not my primary reason for the stand. This is where our tastes/beer is art comes in. I am in the simcoe is cat p*** camp. My favorite hop is centennial. I think different approaches are necessary for different hops. The much talked about Heady Topper apparently has not only simcoe but CTZ in it. These are potent/high coho hops. I can totally see trying to limit any isomerization from these hops and why guys would go low temp hop stand with them. At least, that is my opinion. :mug:
 
I find that if I rely too heavily on late hop additions & forgo the 60-90 min bittering charge, the hop character fades much quicker.
 
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