Poor CS cop out or the other side of techno sword

[rant]

Had the cable guy out over the weekend to try to sort out some picture issues I am having on 2 of my sets. Both have the potential for HD feeds which means they both have a high native resolution, somewhat.

To explain;

One set is a 3 gun CRT retro set capable of 1080i. IIRC, CRT has no "Native Resolution" per se. However, the other is a 1920x1080 DLP set.

Okay, the problem is that when viewing animated source material. I get a slight ghosting or halo-ing (sp) outline in addition to some jitters and outright strobing of isolated bits. This occurs on both sets but the DLP adds another wonderful effect, artifacting with motion. Again, these issues are most notable on video sources and downright annoying from animated program material.

In my experience, both indicate a signal issue usually isolated at bad connections in the line but also are caused by some electromagnetic crosstalk (cable too close to electric), and/or poor shielding.

I pay the extra fee for the service protection so I call for service thinking that the guy will go into the attic, see the horrible spaghetti mess of cable previous installers have left, the numerous splices that other CG's have masterfully installed, and decide that my house wiring needs an overhaul.

Nope.

He spends about 2 minutes at each set pulling up the signal info screen, shows me that my base signal strength is 14dB above 0 (meaning no gain and no loss) and my S/N ratio is 32 (dB, IIRC) or 8 below the Fed set standard.

And then proceeds to tell me that the problem is with my sets and that their resolutions are too high for the crap 480i signals. Basically, he is saying that due to the lossy compression in the signal that when the TV's upconvert the signal to native they over emphasize the image thus creating junk to fill in what the 480 signal lacks. He suggests that all I can do is deal with it until more HD sources come on-line.

This makes sense to me except that, when I play the same program material through my DVD (assumably starting with the same crap 480 res) I don't get near as "pronounced" the "extremity" of picture problems. So, this tells me that what the CG is claiming is partially correct but not entirely the components technologocal fault.

[/rant]

I can re-wire the house myself. I just figured why bother if I am paying for this sort of thing. I mean by the fee it's the cable co's responsibility. However, the CG has basically copped out the problem.

The wiring above really is a major mess of crosses and loops and splices combined with cable lazy practices of running way to much cable cause it's easier to run on the outside of the house than in a hot attic.

I have the compression fittings and tools and have made thousands of such connections myself so, I know how to do it all. Additionally, I would be replacing the Dual Shield RG6 with Quad Sheild RG6 in significantly shorter runs. The only problems are in getting into the pedestal outside and determining which cables run the phones, Inet bridge, and each outlet (a fox and hound chore).

So, any signal geeks out there who know what I am talking about?

Should I just sit and deal or get my butt in gear and re-wire the house for the off chance that my signal cleans up as a result (after all, it is winter and won't be hot in the attic)?

I'm no expert but the shorter the cable the better the signal, unless you use in-line signal boosters. The other aspect is the more connections you have the greater the risk for signal loss. If you can wire it so you have the most direct route, that would be best.

Not sure if the rewiring would be worth it, but the DVD vs. cable test may not be telling you much. Sure you've got the same 480i resolution from the DVD, but the cable signal is probably much more compressed. If you have a way to tell the bitrate from both signals, you'd have more information about what's actually going on. Some DVD players can display the bitrate and the cable box might be able to as well, so that might be worth looking into.

Is it possible to run a temporary line from the first splitter inside the house to one of the TVs? Then you could test the theory without putting in all the work.

Kind of sounds like a shielding issue to me? Is your cable rats nest up in the attic sitting on or near any junction boxes? It's usually not an issue with romex.

I'd call dishnetwork.

Hoss:

Yes, shorter is better. By the sheer nature of things I have convinced myself that. However, even with the numerous 3dB losses at each splice plus the dB losses per x foot of cable I am still +14dB above base. That is where I struggle in justifying the labor to re-wire.

Yermej:

AFAIK, my Sony DVD Recorder doesn't tell me the bit rate and with the Explorer I can never manage to notice the button press combo's used to pull up the signal screen. However, it does provide that info, IIRC.

I'll have to look into this more in-depth. Thanks for the suggestion.

As to a temporary bypass. All the lines are home run from the pedestal. A service line into the box, split and amped, then homerun to each outlet but peppered with splices (not splitters). The DLP, ironically, has the shortest line run of less that 25 foot but still has 2 splices in-line. Sadly, the installer chose the goofiest route for the lines. Along the eave for a bout 10 foot, poked into the attic, and then about 15 foot to the wall plate. Add that "splice" and another 6 or so foot (including the amps power inserter) and sadly THAT is my shortest run. As the "bird flies" done conservatively I could reduce that to about 15 foot total but cannot access the pedestals security lock (can't get the dang tool, even tho I have tried to bribe).

Blacklab:

My thoughts too. And most likely yes. In addition to parralel runs less than 6 Inches apart. I had tried to remedy bhut still have some less than 90 degree crosses that couls also causes some inductance crosstalk issue. Poor layout planning for certain.

Bobby_M:

You're not helping!

Unfortunately, my service is a package deal. Getting .50 minute international long distance (Malaysia) and wifes work requires cable internet service for remotes (effing Feds). You Lose! Insert coins to play again.

Edit: .05 minute int'l........

lmao. what the duckity fruck are you insane people talking about. Turn on the TV, sit down and watch it. For a High Definition TV you need a HD brain to decode the picture. Weakest link in the chain. ...I have a tube tv. work that one out!

you do have cable boxes right ? the deal is with digital cable, if you have that good of DB the other stuff really does not matter all that much
there may be section of frequency that have some cross talk or interfernce
but with Quadrature Amplitude Modulation it would only effect a one or two
logical channels, i dont think its the house wire.
so you have 3 tvs and 3 cable boxes , but 1 tv works ok ? move the boxes and tvs around see if you can eliminate
some stuff, do you have a friend that has cable too ? take a tv over there and see if you get the ghosting ,,,I think its just the lossy Comprestion thay are useing to squeeze more internet, channles and HD ,
and i bet you will see the same thing at your friends house if you have one with cable. cable looks crapy on 1080p TVs

However if you are really gungho about the rewire just run one test wire from the house access box to your set right on the ground and though the door if its the same you will have saved you self alot of troble

my suggestion dump cable
Direct tv has the best digatal picture

TV = Dishnet or Direct Tv they will rewire for free
INTERNET = Dry Loop DSL or Naked DSL from AT&T in OKC.
PHONE = Vonage .06 cents a min to Malaysia
I bet that it will be cheaper than the cable snake too

clayton_ross said:

you do have cable boxes right ? the deal is with digital cable, if you have that good of DB the other stuff really does not matter all that much
there may be section of frequency that have some cross talk or interfernce
but with Quadrature Amplitude Modulation it would only effect a one or two
logical channels, i dont think its the house wire.
so you have 3 tvs and 3 cable boxes , but 1 tv works ok ? move the boxes and tvs around see if you can eliminate
some stuff, do you have a friend that has cable too ? take a tv over there and see if you get the ghosting ,,,I think its just the lossy Comprestion thay are useing to squeeze more internet, channles and HD ,
and i bet you will see the same thing at your friends house if you have one with cable. cable looks crapy on 1080p TVs

However if you are really gungho about the rewire just run one test wire from the house access box to your set right on the ground and though the door if its the same you will have saved you self alot of troble

my suggestion dump cable
Direct tv has the best digatal picture

TV = Dishnet or Direct Tv they will rewire for free
INTERNET = Dry Loop DSL or Naked DSL from AT&T in OKC.
PHONE = Vonage .06 cents a min to Malaysia
I bet that it will be cheaper than the cable snake too

Click to expand...

Your argument is in-line with my understanding of the system. Thus, based on signal strength and S:N a re-wire won't fix picture "issues".

And for the record, we had Dish? with Voom at one point. Got tired of the limited service, equipment purchases, etc... and switched over to your TV "Dark Side". I understand things have changed and gotten competitive but, I am not looking to switch again so, I guess I live with it til' cable gets their Cox outta their ............

Thanks fellas.

My basic policy is to switch between cable and dish network every two years. Each have consistently undercut the previous provider's customer retention discounts. That's fine with me, I have the cable run in place and the dishes stay there. It's a short install/activation call and I only have to apologize to my wife for making her relearn the remotes and channel lineup.

DVD's are actually 480P vs 480i. Also bit rate is really important. You could compress a video at 1080p to such a point it could look worse quality wise than something at 1080p. Are you using a digital cable box?

Your DVD is using a much less lossy compression algorithm than the cable, hence the quality difference. Many cable operators jamb three signals into the bandwidth designed for two.

Should you decide to re-wire, get a four-way splitter and run lines to each set. Every connector adds noise to the system, regardless of the quality of the connection. Also, connectors will create echos & ghosting if there is the slightest bit of corrosion. There are splitters available with varying losses by tap, so you could sacrifice some sign to two of the sets to get a higher level at one, but I really think the problem is the compression.

david_42 said:

Every connector adds noise to the system, regardless of the quality of the connection. Also, connectors will create echos & ghosting if there is the slightest bit of corrosion.

Click to expand...

I'd start there. try to eliminate any 'splices' and extra runs. Then check connections, spray with cleaner if needed, then try again. If you have to re-crimp an end, go for it. The cable co here in NYC just uses push on connectors. I've had to re-terminate a few.

B

GilaMinumBeer said:

I pay the extra fee for the service protection so I call for service thinking that the guy will go into the attic, see the horrible spaghetti mess of cable previous installers have left, the numerous splices that other CG's have masterfully installed, and decide that my house wiring needs an overhaul.

Click to expand...

That is the problem right there. If you have a bunch of splitters installed you will have a loss of 3db or more at each splitter. All he did was take a reading of your signal strength as it entered your house (before all of the splitting).

I suggest installing a good signal booster infront of all those splitters (IE at the point that the signal enters your house). This combined with eliminating as many unnecessary cable runs and splits should solve the problem.

david_42 said:

Your DVD is using a much less lossy compression algorithm than the cable, hence the quality difference. Many cable operators jamb three signals into the bandwidth designed for two.

Should you decide to re-wire, get a four-way splitter and run lines to each set. Every connector adds noise to the system, regardless of the quality of the connection. Also, connectors will create echos & ghosting if there is the slightest bit of corrosion. There are splitters available with varying losses by tap, so you could sacrifice some sign to two of the sets to get a higher level at one, but I really think the problem is the compression.

Click to expand...

If I do opt to rewire, the only "splitter" I will have inline is the Amp. Everything will be a homerun from the component to the amp. 2 connectors a line, period. That's how I have always done it when I wired homes. Occasionally, I would get a client who insisted on a wall plate termination and I would oblige but, normally I would run the whip line straight through a blank plate. Chasing bad compression fittings is a chore.

Well, I have resolved some of my picture quality issues. I realized that my cable box (8300HD) was set to not display any 480i/p signals. That is, it was set to display only 720 and 1080 thus it was forcing an upconversion of lower resolution signals to the higher and forcing an aspect change as well.

After reconfiguring this to allow the 480i/p signals to display the signal cleaned up considerably although I do still have noticible compression "noise" but, at least now it's tolerable.

And yes, I know the DVD uses cleaner compression algorithms. My earlier point about the comparison was in-line with the picture quality not being the television sets fault. Although, I didn;t come straight out and say that.

John_Peters said:

That is the problem right there. If you have a bunch of splitters installed you will have a loss of 3db or more at each splitter. All he did was take a reading of your signal strength as it entered your house (before all of the splitting).

I suggest installing a good signal booster infront of all those splitters (IE at the point that the signal enters your house). This combined with eliminating as many unnecessary cable runs and splits should solve the problem.

Click to expand...

Actually, no. The box takes the signal reading internally. That is, after all the amplification, splits, and losses.

The system is already amplified at the pedestal. Trunck line enters the amp and then the amp splits out to each service point in the house.

I may still opt to clean up the system IF I can locate a lock tool for the pedestal. I know where my cable company sources their tools but, it seems thay have an "agreement" with the local supplier. I have yet been unable to purchase the tool or get the name of the manufacturer. If I can't get that then there realliy is no point because no matter what I do I will still have to splice the line since I cannot access the terminations at the amp.

run your lines new then call the cc and tell them they need to hook up a new run in the house

eriktlupus said:

run your lines new then call the cc and tell them they need to hook up a new run in the house

Click to expand...

I have considered that but risk being charged an "installation fee" since they didn't run the lines. To be honest, I'd rather the cable company didn't have any knowledge that I, the dreaded homeowner, have touched any of the system. Even tho I prolly know more about it than the tech they send out.

I had the 8300HD and thought it was a great box. If you didn't know though, the dish VIP622 has an HD Off the Air antenna which adds a THIRD Tuner/DVR recording slot. It also have a second SD TV output. It's like they knew exactly what I was looking for... if only the TV2 output could be HD, I'd never leave them.

Appearance of noise is now sometimes the fault of the CC jamming the three signals into one. I've seen image son line of comparable shots that show the difference between a previous Comcast image and the new shots, since they went from 2 signals into three. Less bandwidth for each, and a softening of the images and noise and slight ghosting (depending on the channel since some channels are programmed with more or less bandwidth than the others for whatever reason they decide at the time.)

I have had dish for a long time and enjoy it, but a recent upgrade to the firmware in our receiver (due to beign unplugged for remodeling) has started causing our DVR to lose programs after a week or so. I'm thinking about upgrading to a new HD receiver since we now have a nice WS tv. Their HD looks really very good for sat. I believe they have a lowered bitrate, but the res is supposed to be 1080.

Problem solved.

While there is still some "compression noise" present, as expected, I managed to discover other root causes to the issue. Oddly enough, this set has a "Shop Mode" or "Demo Mode". Normally, the set is taken out of shop/demo mode when it is plugged in initially. That is, the set runs the user through a basic setup routine to set the clock, auto program channels, and switch out of demo mode.

When this took place for me I was distracted by a screaming toddler and by time I had returned to the set the routine had timed out. I had always been aware of the potential for the set being in shop mode but could never access the menu area and had assumed that the set was not in shop mode. Turns out the menu feature is "input specific accessible". Meaning, I had to be on a antenna input to get access to the "Plug and Play" menu item. I have always been using the HDMI inputs.

So, what does this mean? Well, in "Shop Mode" this set is programmed to have all the settings virtually blown out to get the brightest picture possible. Now, given that this is a 3 Chip DLP with a LED light source the picture still looks good and saturated. BUT, the other side of this feature is that if any picture settings are changed the set will time out 30 minutes, shut off, come on again, and reset all picture settings.

I have had this occur but, had never correlated my lost picture settings with this. I thought I was having a firmware issue and had been waiting for a tech to reply to an email I had sent.

Anyway, I figure out how to take the set out of shop mode. Set the picture up properly by turning down the light intensity, turned off ALL of the internal processing features (auto contrast, HDMI Black Level, etc...), setting brightness and contrast correctly and lo and behold the picture is beautiful.

Sure, if you press your face against the screen you can still see evidence of compression noise but then again, you can see that on my tube set too.

Thanks for all the suggestions. Fortunately, it does not look like a re-wire will be in order. (Phew)














Gotdamn Samsung and their effing Demo modes. What the feck is the deal with halfass descriptive owners manuals? %^$#@*&!!!!!!!