Need help with my electrical diagram!!!

hmmm...I have an on several occaisons...

its as if the the power to the element was simply controlled by the switch and that the PID only give you a digital reading of the temperature...feels as though something is missing between the pid and the element....

disconnect the leads from the PID to the SSR and use a meter test to see if the power is going on and off? at this point with the PID disconnected from the SSR are the elements still being powered? that should narrow it down to PID config. or SSR wiring.

Are you sure the SSR's are "breaking" the current? IIRC you have the SSR on only one leg....if the SSR is wired incorrectly or has failed closed (very unlikely that all of them would be bad) , that would definitely cause what you are describing.

samc said:

disconnect the leads from the PID to the SSR and use a meter test to see if the power is going on and off? at this point with the PID disconnected from the SSR are the elements still being powered? that should narrow it down to PID config. or SSR wiring.

Click to expand...

+1. Good ol' POE!

so i would test the leads between the PID and the SSR or between the SSR and the contactors?

PID, you want to see if they are powering the SSR after set point temp is reached. And at that point when disconnected you shouldn't have any power to the elements. Make sure you have water in the kettle so you don't dry fire elements.

that makes sense! If they do still send power to the SSR after the set value has been reached...then the PID is either defective or the parameters have not been properly set...!?!?

Cant this simply be seen by looking at the PID...if the SSR output is blinking then it is sending power???

Are you sure you are not just seeing some temp overshoot with your PID? How did you "tune" your PID? When you reach the setpoint temp, the PID will continue to fire intermittently to maintain the temp at the setpoint. Also, depending on your tuning, you may see 1-5F overshoot.

At first it was a 2-3C overshoot. Then I left it run for a while and it just kept on heating. Also, to further test the PIDs, I put them in manual at 0% and the elements fired....

Does this happen with both of your PID/SSR/element circuits?
What happens if you turn your PID off? If your elements continue to fire with your PID off, then your SSRs have failed "closed".

hmmm, I think that could perhaps be the problem. Ill have to re-check next time...

Failed closed: does that mean that the SSRs are done, or can this be fixed???

Ive noticed that the SSRs do flash, about once per second if not per 2 seconds...is this normal...shouldn't it be faster?

Failed "closed" means ya need new ones. I doubt they can be repaired.
I don't know about the SSRs flashing. Mine don't have indicator lights. You would have to look at the owners manual or call the manufacturer to inquire.

So I had a couple of minute to check the above mentioned problem, this is what I observed:

1.When the HLT temp was above the set value, the SSR out as well as the SSR itself did not blink. Good

2.When the HLT temp was below the set value, the SSR out as well as the SSR itself did blink. Good

3. Once the set value had been reached, the SSR out as well as the SSR itself stopped blinking. Good

So from this, the PID seems to be working correctly, seems to be sending the signal to the SSR when it should be.

As soon as I turn the element on using the switch, the element kicks up and starts heating the HLT. Whether the SSR out is blinking or not, the element continues to fire. Even when I set it in manual mode at 0%, the element still fires....

So, if the SSR itself is blinking in synchrony with the SSR out, does this in any way tell me that the SSR is ok (not failed closed)?

Is there another possibility to this problem other than an SSR problem...perhaps a wiring mistake??

Thanks a lot for your help!!!

Gab

Turn your PID off or disconnect it from the SSR. If the element heats up anyway, your SSR is failed closed.

so even if its flashing, it could still be failed closed?

Gabrew said:

so even if its flashing, it could still be failed closed?

Click to expand...

Yup, or a wiring mistake.

Do you have a differential in your process? Like a 3 degree swing? Maybe that's why it keeps heating?

Sounds like your on-off-auto switch is wired incorrectly from what you've mentioned, though.

problem solved: SSRs failed closed (2 out of 2...lucky me)
Just ordered two from Auberins, hopefully they're of better value than the cheap China SSRs I went for ...

Dumb f-ing luck, bro. Hope your next set works better for you!

TB

Wow....that's crazy. I was just finishing my control box and ended up soldering my control leads to the pins with everything IN the box. It felt like that old game, "Operation"....well....as I was doing this I unknowingly melted a part of one of the SSR's! I immediately thought of this thread.....but so far, so good. If it makes you feel any better I waited a month on my led buzzer to arive from Hong Kong, only to find it was a dud. Go figure.

When ordering supplies, always keep in mind:

Good. Fast. Cheap.

you can have any two of the above.

TB

Gabrew said:

problem solved: SSRs failed closed (2 out of 2...lucky me)
Just ordered two from Auberins, hopefully they're of better value than the cheap China SSRs I went for ...

Click to expand...

As much as I respect the service of Auberins, the SSR's are basically the same cheap China crap you would buy from EBAY. As a matter of fact, most of the stuff they sell is that way. The only advantage is you get someone in the US willing to support the product and answer your questions.

I don't know much about the internal workings of an SSR, but could the SSR's have been fried by incorrect wiring? Seems odd for both to fail otherwise.

samc said:

I don't know much about the internal workings of an SSR, but could the SSR's have been fried by incorrect wiring? Seems odd for both to fail otherwise.

Click to expand...

Or a misunderstanding of how SSRs really work. I've seen many folk freak out when they test an SSR in-circuit with a multimeter, see 120V / 240V and think it has failed. Even off, SSRs pass a small leakage current of 3-5mA. More than enough for a multimeter to get a voltage reading.

what could cause an SSR to fail?
-improper amp capacity
-improper wiring
-inefficient heat release
??

samc said:

As much as I respect the service of Auberins, the SSR's are basically the same cheap China crap you would buy from EBAY. As a matter of fact, most of the stuff they sell is that way. The only advantage is you get someone in the US willing to support the product and answer your questions. ...

Click to expand...

That is a fairly inflammatory and disrespectful slam of a great supplier. With your statement there is NO way that you "respect" the service of Auberins. SHAME on you.!

Gabrew said:

what could cause an SSR to fail?
-improper amp capacity
-improper wiring
-inefficient heat release
??

Click to expand...

All of the above or a defective product.
BTW, that can happen to any supplier. There is no way that every item can be bench tested when it comes through the door.

yeah, i spoke with Suyi (GREAT PERSON!!!!!), this is what he said:

The SSR we are selling is "extremely" reliable. The failure rate for 3 month is less than 0.1%, unless it is miss used. We sell them by thousands but with less than 2 failed for the last two years. If you have both SSR failed in a short time, something is definitely wrong with your system. You need to find the problem before you damage another one. What is the current of your load? What kid of heat sink is used? Are there any venting for forced air for cooling. Can you send me a picture that show your installation?
Thanks,

-once i gave him the details this is what he ansered:

Thanks for the link. The installation looks fine. The SSR is also looks similar. It might be a cheap copy.
Best regards,

Like Jkarp asked in an earlier post... How did you determine the SSR's have failed?
If you used a meter with no load, the SSR WILL pass voltage, which could lead you to think it has failed. If that's how you tested, you could still have a control wiring issue that is causing your elements to continue heating.

Ed

really?? crap.....

i followed my wiring diagram....

Gabrew said:

really?? crap.....

i followed my wiring diagram....

Click to expand...

If the SSR is driving a load, it is because either, it has failed closed, OR control voltage is present.

Did you check the control voltage at the SSR's when you thought it should be off? If control voltage is present, then you have a wiring or logic issue.

You said the elements continued to heat... I assume you were watching a temp gauge to determine this. In some cases, depending on probe placement, the temp can continue to rise because of thermal mass even when the element is off... Imagine momentum keeping it going in a direction (for a while). How long did you wait to see if it was continuing to rise? If you set your temp to 100f and the SSR is failed closed it would eventually boil the water and keep heating.

Ed

P-J said:

That is a fairly inflammatory and disrespectful slam of a great supplier. With your statement there is NO way that you "respect" the service of Auberins. SHAME on you.!

Click to expand...

Do your research before giving me the Shame on you comment. I can find a lot of what they sell on ebay. http://cgi.ebay.com/Lot-10-X-Solid-...660?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5adb026fe4 for less money if that was the direction I wanted to take. I recently sent Auber $250. so obviously I don't have an issue with them.

i left it for several minutes and it just keeps on heating. Even when I dont switch on the PID but switch on the elements...the elements fire up.

Gabrew said:

i left it for several minutes and it just keeps on heating. Even when I dont switch on the PID but switch on the elements...the elements fire up.

Click to expand...

Do you have a selector switch that allows for "Manual" operation of the element?

nope. The element switch is connected to the contactor, and that contactor is 'controlled' by an SSR (on 1 leg) between the contactor and the breaker.

Its as is if the SSR is always on, such that only my element switch is controlling the element...

samc said:

Do your research before giving me the Shame on you comment. I can find a lot of what they sell on ebay. http://cgi.ebay.com/Lot-10-X-Solid-...660?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5adb026fe4 for less money if that was the direction I wanted to take. I recently sent Auber $250. so obviously I don't have an issue with them.

Click to expand...

"Do your research"? You have got to be kidding.

Well, I'm glad you didn't buy the SSR's from your link. You could have been in the same boat as Gabrew. It's all about the -
Hell, never mind. Do what you want.

I still firmly remain in the camp that Auber Instruments is a great supplier. Customer service it outstanding. Products are top notch.

Carry on with whatever you choose. It's your decision after all.

Gabrew said:

nope. The element switch is connected to the contactor, and that contactor is 'controlled' by an SSR (on 1 leg) between the contactor and the breaker.

Its as is if the SSR is always on, such that only my element switch is controlling the element...

Click to expand...

I borrowed heavily from this build, but put my ssr's after the contactor. NO power is supplied to the ssr until I say so. My 3 position selector switch is almost like a kill switch when placed in the center position. If the ssrs fail on I can still limp through a brewday if necessary.

well, if i understand correctly...it works the same way for me.

Having the SSR before the contactor: to matter what the PID signals...no current will reach the element unless I 'turn on' the contactor using my element switch...

I was able to complete my first brew turning the elements on and off continuously using the element switches

Gabrew said:

nope. The element switch is connected to the contactor, and that contactor is 'controlled' by an SSR (on 1 leg) between the contactor and the breaker.

Its as is if the SSR is always on, such that only my element switch is controlling the element...

Click to expand...

Gotcha... I thought you had selector switches to provide 'Hand" operation.


Ed

Gabrew said:

well, if i understand correctly...it works the same way for me.

Having the SSR before the contactor: to matter what the PID signals...no current will reach the element unless I 'turn on' the contactor using my element switch...

I was able to complete my first brew turning the elements on and off continuously using the element switches

Click to expand...

Yes, same concept but the ssr will never receive voltage and hence wear and tear if its wired after the contactor. So you're protecting the ssr as well as isolating the element.

Well I received my SSRs from Auberins...and must admit that I am quite disappointed with what I've received. The SSRs look exactly like the cheap stuff I had ordered for a fraction of the price...

What do you guys think?

Auber Instruments provides top quality products. Plus their support is just plain outstanding.