Results from juice, yeast and sugar experiments

Ivano - I did a mix of Pink Lady and Granny smith a few years ago that was very good. Fuji is also good in a mix although probably woundnt use it as the main juice. I'd avoid the Jonagolds unless I had no choice (they are a cross between yellow delicious and jonathan) and I'm not sure about the jona prince. One thing I've found though is that the same apple can taste very different between two orchards, mainly I think because of harvest time. If it were me, I'd probably start with half Pink Lady and a quarter each of Granny smith and Fuji as a baseline - but before pressing the apples cut some small slices of each. Chomp down on two slices of PL, and one each of Fuji and GS and see how that tastes, vary the proportion of GS to go more or less tart and use the Fuji to balance the flavor of the PL

Scott - no, the two orchards I've been using are both low spray. The one with the press has an apple wash that they run the apples through first. When I press my own, I always wash them first - well, almost always. For the last batch of juice I got, the one with the Northern Spys, I took the juice to a farmers market, where a guy I know has a portable press and presses juice on the spot. He didnt have an apple wash set up so I crossed my fingers and tossed the apples in the hopper. I probably should have pitched some campden before the yeast. For a while it was tasting a little weird, but it seems to be more normal tasting now (perhaps the alcohol killed the weird taste). My takeaway lesson from this was always wash the apples.

Kevin have you tried either the Rouge pacman ale yeast yet or used some harvested bells brewery yeast? Or do you know anyone that has tried either of them.

I have both washed and waiting to be used in my fridge so thats why im asking.

Ern - No I havent tried either of those. They both sound like interesting choices

I'm following along w/ CvilleKevin's recommendations...Fresh, unpasteurized local cider. Notty yeast and when the gravity hit 1.015 (Yes... quite sweet) I crash cooled the primary at 30 F, racked to the secondary after a couple of days and added gelatin to the secondary. Wow... an instant reaction... the cider turned milky opaque... never saw that kind of reaction w/ gelatin and beer! Back to the 30 F fridge until it clears and then into the cornie.

Hmm, I've never used gelatin so cant say if that is normal or not. I have a friend who uses bentonite and it sounds similar in that it makes the cider turn muddy for a day or so before it clears.

Last Sunday some friends came over and we checked out 12 ciders from last year, along with 2 kegs on tap from this year.

All of the batches seem to have been well enough preserved. I didnt use any sulfites and they have just been sitting in my basement. I've become a lot more careful to keep exposure to air to a minimum when I'm handling them and this seems to have helped with longevity.

The overall favorite from last year was a batch made from Stayman and Pink Lady, og 1.060, no sugar Wy1010 yeast and about a pound of frozen raspberries added a couple days before cold crashing at 1.012. This got the highest rating ever from my friends at 9.16, which means that a lot of people liked it and no one really disliked it. It got a little sulfury after the crash and it took a couple charges of CO2 to scrub it out of the keg. At the time I kegged it, I decided not to use the 1010 for raspberry again because scrubbing the sulfur is a bit of extra work, but I think I will give it another shot now.

The same apples with no sugar and Brupak Ale yeast crashed at 1.012 was the overall 2nd favorite at 8.57 and my personal favorite. I'm going to be using Brupak a lot more. Third favorite was a batch with 3lbs orange blossom honey and Wy3638. Fourth was another raspberry batch with US05 and a little sugar, and a pound of raspberries before the crash. It was a little more sticky than the first, but a lot of people liked this a lot.

The Morgans Ale yeast and Youngs cider yeast batches got no love. Deservedly so IMHO, they werent really bad but got a little too dry and flavorless.

A few of my friends liked the WLP500 a lot and I like it, but over all it just got a 6.43 average, which was on the low side to be worth making a keg of it. The others were OK but not especially keg worthy

I'm planning to get more juice on Monday. Stayman, York, Winesap and Gala, enough for 8 keg batches. I'm planning to use Wy3068, Wy3056, Wy3333, Wy1010, Brupak, Gervin English Ale, S04 and US05.

On Monday I made another trip to the orchard, along with Eric from the Yorktown brew club. We got 249 gallons total. It was about 40% Stayman, 25% York, 25% Winesap and 10% Gala. OG was 1.050 and the pH was 4.1.

This is the highest pH I've measured so far, which surprised me. Based on the apple mix, I was expecting something around 3.7, but the apples had less acid than usual. I'm not sure if it was the weather or what. The taste is good, but a little less intense than the previous batch. Still has a nice apple taste and finish, but doesnt slap you upside the head with apple like that last batch.

Since the flavor was a little lighter on this batch, I only added sugar to the US05 batch and some honey to the 3333 batch. The rest I pitched with no sugar. They are all chugging along strong, except for the Gervin English Ale, which is going real slow.

I got home from the press around noon, but had to go to work and didnt get back to pitch the yeast until about 8pm, so the wild yeast got a pretty good head start on this batch. Time will tell how that works out. I poured a couple gallons out of the carboys to make some headspace and those gallons have gone fizzy in the fridge in just a couple days.

This Saturday I'm planning to press some more by hand at a friend's cider pressing party. Planning to do a Northern Spy, Gala, Winesap and crabapple mix

Thanks Kevin for all your input. I've referred to your sticky many times to review your notes on yeast. You and several others have been very generous (sp?) with your input on cidermaking. Thanks again for all the help!!

Been looking through this post - wow what a lot of information. Perhaps you can help me cut right to the chase though. I've found a local orchard that will fill up a carboy or two with fresh-pressed, unpasteurized juice for me. I'm not looking to make anything complex, just a nice cider - I have no problem with dry and in fact, I'd probably like to bottle-carbonate some of it, so am resigned to something on the dry side.

I was originally thinking of using either a wine yeast or a sweet mead yeast (White Labs), but based on what I have read here, I'm leaning towards using US-04 and perhaps augmenting the OG with some additional sugar (white? brown? turbinado? molasses?). Actually I am also leaning towards caramelizing some of the cider before mixing it up with the rest - with the idea/hope that it will add some residual body/sweetness and flavor.

If you were only going to make one, "straight" cider, what would you do?

Thanks

JLem - my idea of a straight cider is S04 crashed around 1.008 and keg carbonated. Right now I am sipping on a batch made with 3056 which is mighty good, but I wouldnt call it a straight cider.

S04 also makes a nice dry cider at about 1.004 but I wouldnt ferment S04 to complete dryness (at least not on purpose). It washes out too much of the apple taste. Not as much as Notty or US05, and much less than wine or champange yeast, but still too much IMHO.

The best yeast I've used so far for going completely dry is the Wyeast 4184, which is also a sweet mead yeast (havent used the WLP version), but you need to let it wait for about 6 months to mellow. So this is not a bad choice if you like dry, dont have a keg and dont want to pasteurize bottles

I've also had good results with a batch of Brupak Ale that I accidentally fermented to dryness a couple weeks ago. It kept a lot of flavor for zero sugar. Better than S04 with no sugar.

Using good cider apples is more important when you go completely or near dry. They dont have to be heirloom apples, but try to get a good combination of flavor, aroma and tartness apples - eg. Northern Spy, Mac, Jonathan.

Thanks for the info. I'm not sure what the apple varieties will be going into the cider - I'm supposed to give the orchard a call Friday to find out when they are pressing - I will try to get some info from them then.

Thanks too for the clarification about the fact that the yeast give different results whether they ferment out or not. I'm not interested in stopping the fermentation early and am not set up to keg and force carb, so I am going to go with something that will be good dry. I actually think I might try some Lalvin Champagne yeast (EC-1118).

Do you ever use pectic enzyme to help clear your ciders? Also, with fresh, unpasteurized juice, would you add anything to knock out the native flora?

L1118 is good if you like it real dry, like a dry white wine. With my friends who like the dry, Wy1275, WLP565 and Youngs cider yeast have also been popular fermented to dryness. Most folks I know didnt care much for them so dry though.

I dont use pectic enzyme. They usually clear in the crash, but if they dont, I just drink them cloudy or let them clear up in a secondary for a while.

I havent used any additives in several years, but I usually am able to pitch yeast within a few hours of the cider being pressed. On the latest run, I had to go to work right after I got the juice and the carboys had to sit in the kitchen at about 72 for about 8 hours till I pitched the yeast, so I expect the natural yeast will have a strong presence on these batches.

The gervin english ale batch ended up being mostly a natural yeast ferment. I didnt realize that the packet was several months out of code and the start was very weak. It never got going and within a few days the wild yeast had won out. I just tried to crash it a 1.008, but its pretty near unstoppable and I need to crash the S04 batch now. Hopefully I've at least slowed it down enough to stay drinkable for a while.

this is my first post and i have to say THANK YOU!!!
i did a bunch of different yeast/sugar/juice combos in growlers and my fave is 'cheap' pastuerized juice, cooper's ale yeast, and some brown sugar. you were on point with the 'blackthorn' taste from the cooper's, (and i think the brown sugar i'm using gives it a ton of body though, i got lucky on that one).
just sampled a batch that i'm bottling tomorrow of= 5 gallons pastuerized, 3 lbs honey, and nottingham and LOVE what i'm getting here; apple and honey flavors, semi sweet but not overbearing, 8% according to my hydro, and a nice color too. it'll probably be even better with time as it clears.
thanks again and best-
carl

Regarding your DME experiments, when using cane or corn sugar as a brewing adjunct, many brewers wait until the yeast has gotten a good start on the malt before adding a lot of simple sugar. The thinking is that if there is a lot of simple sugar, the yeast will pig out on that and not create enough of the enzymes needed to ferment the maltose.

You may be seeing a similar thing with your cider. The yeast gobble up the fructose and other sugars from the apples first, saving the maltose for last. That might be why so much of the apple flavor is gone but the malt flavor remains.

Thanks for the great info!

carl - good to hear that Notty and Coopers came through for you! Which other ones did you try?

dawarpo - yes I believe thats right, the maltose has more complex sugars so that is the predominant flavor that remains - at least as far as the sweetness and body was concerned. There was still a lot of apple in the finish

This past Friday, I crashed a batch of raspberry cider with 1010 yeast. I racked it Saturday coming out of the fridge, and there was a little over a quart of trub left behind. I tasted some of the trub and it was delicious. This was the second rack so it was just the apple and raspberry solids that dropped in the crash, along with a bit of yeast. It tasted like some sort of yougurt health food drink, which I thought was too good to waste, so I filled a liter bottle with it, put it in the fridge, and drank the rest.

I was planning to drink the raspberry trub with some friends on Sunday but forgot to take it. So last night SWMBO and I were watching the Daily Show and we heard a thump from the kitchen. I went in to see if something had fallen over, figured it was a squirrel on the roof or something. Then SWMBO went to get some juice from the fridge and the inside of the fridge was completely covered in raspberry pulp. Even stuff on the top shelves. We had just gone grocery shopping that evening so the fridge was fairly packed. Every nook and cranny was covered in gunk - it was like for an instant all of the air space in the fridge was filled with a raspberry cider foam plasma, which then settled on everything.

I havent seen anything like that since I was a kid. It reminded me that I have been very lucky, for having a good natured girlfriend and for only blowing up 3 bottles (so far knock on wood) out of probably over 1000 now over the past decade. In retrospect, it was a really stupid thing for me to leave that stuff in the fridge for 2 days.

Speaking of which, I'm just about to finish crashing a batch with Wy3333 and Orange blossom honey and then I will have crashed all of the batches from this last pressing. Some of them are showing signs of re-starting, so I'll probably crash about half of them again before kegging.

I'm going to try bottle carbing some of the 3333 batch. Last year I did 4 batches with 3333 that I was able to bottle carb. The first 3 were accidents - gallon batches which I didnt expect to carbonate, but they did. They didnt break any bottles, but had a nice carb with about a 1.010 sg after sitting 6 months. I believe that the 3333 can stay alive for a little while after the crash but eventually starves for lack of nitrogen.

At the end of last season I did a 5 gal batch of the 3333 and orange blossom honey and bottled a dozen grolsh bottles. Ive been drinking one a month and still have a few left. I bottled at 1.012, expecting them to drop to about 1.010, but they didnt get that much carb, just a bit of carb. I think that's because on this batch I waited longer from the time that I crashed to when I bottled (2 weeks instead of 2 days). Since I was intentionally going to store these for at least a year, I wanted to be a little more conservative about the bottle carb. But I was too conservative. This time I'm just going to wait a day or two after the crash, then bottle and see what happens. These bottles will be kept in bottle carriers in the basement, where if they blow, they will be a lot easier to clean up. I'll let you know how it turns out. In the meantime - Dont try this at home! Unless you have a tolerant SO and a way to contain possible explosions.

I'm getting ready to make a batch and have read the beginning 100+/- posts.
Couple of questions. Will light effect the cider the way it does beer?
I'll be using flash pasturized cider with no additives. Nottingham yeast. OG @ 1.060
Should I bump it to 1.066+/-?
Rack and cold crash @1.006
Anything I'm missing?
Thanks
Bull

I assume that light will effect cider as it also effect wine, but I've never tried to test this - I just keep my fermenting cider in the basement where it doesnt get any direct light and I cover my stacks of bottles.

If your OG is 1.060, thats pretty good. I'd just go with that. Bumping the OG will probably make it easier to cold crash though, so its your call.

For my last 8 batches, I didnt add any sugar or honey to six of them, even though the OG was only 1.050, because I didnt want to mess with the flavor, but now I am wishing that I had done so, because they all fermented very fast, making them hard to crash (I only have room in fridge for one at a time, plus one ice bucket)

The reason I asked about the light is I'd like to keep this in a warmer part of the house.
Basement is about 62 degrees and I thought it may do well @ 70. I have that temp on the dining room table.
I'm glad my wife supports this!
Thoughts on temp?
Bull

My experience with Notty (as with most yeasts) is that it is a lot easier to control at 62 degrees than 70

CvilleKevin said:

My experience with Notty (as with most yeasts) is that it is a lot easier to control at 62 degrees than 70

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Any truth to the idea that colder temps will result in a slower, less vigorous fermentation, which is a good thing for retaining some apple/fruit flavors and aromas?

BTW I started my cider this past weekend - I boiled down some cider (1 gallon down to 16 ounces) and added that to 3 gallons of fresh-pressed UV pasteurized juice. I added some oak cubes to the primary (after listening to the Brewing Network podcast with Shea Comfort) and went with Lalvin 71B-1112. I'm fermenting it in the low 60s. Not sure exactly what to expect, but I am hopeful. There's a post in my recipe/brew log (link below) if interested.

Any truth to the idea that colder temps will result in a slower, less vigorous fermentation, which is a good thing for retaining some apple/fruit flavors and aromas?

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That has been my experience

Ok, I settled for a dark shelf @ 66 degrees.

I was thinking if I fermented @70, I may retain some of the fruityness. I'm sure it'll all work out.

Bull

I just filled 12 Grolsh bottles from the Wy3333 and Orange blossom honey batch, after 5 days of cold crash. The rest I put in a keg. I'm planning on drinking one of these a month, or until they start bursting, whichever comes first. sg was 1.010, but they taste a lot sweeter. My expectation is that the 3333 yeast will be able to drop a couple more points and carbonate these bottles before running out of nitrogen - so they shouldnt burst. They are all in a protective crate, just in case they do. We'll see what happens.

CvilleKevin said:

I just filled 12 Grolsh bottles from the Wy3333 and Orange blossom honey batch, after 5 days of cold crash. The rest I put in a keg. I'm planning on drinking one of these a month, or until they start bursting, whichever comes first. sg was 1.010, but they taste a lot sweeter. My expectation is that the 3333 yeast will be able to drop a couple more points and carbonate these bottles before running out of nitrogen - so they shouldnt burst. They are all in a protective crate, just in case they do. We'll see what happens.

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Hey Kevin, thanks for the extensive information on your brewing, it's an invaluable resource. I've read through about 10 pages of the thread and skimmed another 10 or 15, but haven't found any pictures of your crates. Could you post a picture of your protective crates?

I'm about 5 days into my first attempt at brewing some hard cider and wish I had browsed this thread first. I picked up 5 gallons of unpasteurized cider from a mill in MD for my brew. I followed the advice of my LHBS rep and unfortunately regret it now, he must be a dry cider fan because he recommended the Wyeast 4766 packs. I'm hoping I can still get a semi or fully sweet carbed cider, does this sound feasible:

1. Rack once and cold crash @ 1.025 SG for a few days till clear
2. Bottle w/o priming and use a plastic bottle to test for firmness, hopefully I'll have a fully carbed cider in a day or two @ ~1.02 - 1.018
3. Bottle pasteurize @ 160 for 10 min on stovetop

I pulled most of this method from charesty's thead here, but he never mentions if he rack'd or not and if he pulled some of the lees into his bottles for the carb'ing. My guess is that he rack'd before the cold crash and that the residual yeast in the crashed cider was enough to carb it without priming (or he simply doesn't mind a mildly carb'd cider). He crashed @ 1.02 and finished @ 1.015 after pasteurizing, I'm hoping mine will be a tad more sweet than semi sweet if I crash at 1.025.

CvilleKevin said:

One of the characteristics of a perfect cider yeast IMHO would be one that only had an alcohol tolerance that was in the range of 5 to 8 percent (preferably available in half percent steps eg 6.5, 7,0 etc. That would save the cold crashing step and make bottle carbonating reliable as long as someone can use a hydrometer properly.

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Pulling up an older post for quick q: when you say "save the cold crashing step" are you referring to a yeast that allows you to stop fermentation simply by racking?

CvilleKevin said:

Safale S-04 – This is becoming my new favorite. It has a little fruitier taste than the Nottingham. It cold crashes well with any juice. If you use sugar and bump sg up to at least 1.060, then you can stop fermentation with pasteurized juice by racking. With unpasteurized juice, if you don’t cold crash and just let it ferment out to dryness, it leaves more of the apple taste than the Nottingham. It also works better for unpasteurized cysers. I haven’t tried a pasteurized cyser with it yet.

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Have you also been able to stop fermentation with just racking a Safale S-04 using unpasteurized juice?

[EDIT: Nevermind. Answered my own question there.]

Could you post a picture of your protective crates?

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Sure - here are the crates. I use regular milk crates for the grolsh bottles. They hold 14 grolshes each. I have bottle crates with protective dividers for 12oz and one liter bottles. Behind the crates are 6 cardboard cases each with 20 one liter bottles. I'm hoping to replace the cardboard cases soon with more of the one liter bottle crates, because they are a lot easier to to handle. Also a lot easier to clean so I can be more aggressive with some bottle carb experiments.

I'm hoping I can still get a semi or fully sweet carbed cider, does this sound feasible:

1. Rack once and cold crash @ 1.025 SG for a few days till clear
2. Bottle w/o priming and use a plastic bottle to test for firmness, hopefully I'll have a fully carbed cider in a day or two @ ~1.02 - 1.018
3. Bottle pasteurize @ 160 for 10 min on stovetop

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I'm not sure how well the 4766 will respond to cold crashing. I've only done a few test batches with that yeast and they all fermented fairly dry, so I dont know how stable they stay with sugar after the crash. If this was the Wy4184, I'd say no problem, because cold crashing wont stop that yeast, but I'm not sure about Wy4766. My guess is that with the sg so high, the crash probably wont stop the ferment.

If you were using an ale or wheat yeast, then you'd definately want to pick up some sediment if you crash, because these yeasts crash pretty well. Wy4184, S23 and L1118 are resistant to crashing, so you could crash to get some clarity and still be able to bottle carbonate afterwards.

Pulling up an older post for quick q: when you say "save the cold crashing step" are you referring to a yeast that allows you to stop fermentation simply by racking?

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What I was referring to, is that if you had a yeast that had a tightly defined alcohol tolerance - say 6%, then you could bottle when the ABV was 5.5 to 5.75 percent, and know that the yeast would only go a little bit further before stopping, even if there was still a fair amount of residual sugar - so no bottle bombs. However, the chances of someone developing a yeast with a alcohol tolerence this exact is unlikely, in which case a yeast that allows you to stop fermentation simply by racking would also be very handy - at least if you can keg carbonate.

For now, the Wy3333 seems to hold the most promise for bottle carbing a sweet cider without needing to pasteurize, because it uses a lot of nitrogen, and the yeast seems to stay viable after the crash for just long enough to provide some carbonation. I dont recommend trying this though unless you have a) low nitrogen fresh juice, b) some experience successfully cold crashing and c) a way to handle potentially burst bottles.

Have you also been able to stop fermentation with just racking a Safale S-04 using unpasteurized juice?

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Yes - but not consistently, it seems to be a function of the juice.

Thanks again Kevin, definitely going to find some Wy3333 for my next batch. I also think I'll move back a step to experimenting with 1gal containers for a bit more flexibility.

For now, the Wy3333 seems to hold the most promise for bottle carbing a sweet cider without needing to pasteurize,

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Still reading through the thread, haven't gotten through 2009 yet so apologies if this has already been discussed. Did you point this out in the noble pursuit of the simplest method? I can certainly appreciate that. Being able to consistently create a sweet bottle-carb'd cider without pasteurization (sounds like an additional 2-3 hours per 5 gallons) would probably become the most popular cider making method.. I'd certainly use it. Are there any other reasons you avoid pasteurization?

In the mean time I'm going to try and adopt charesty's method where he bottle carbed using Wy4766. I'll just have to accept the fact that I'll have to either a) keep the bottles cold or b) pasteurize them.

Although, it still boggles my mind that he bottled after cold crashing, and he didn't use any priming sugar. From what you're saying the crash only serves to retard the yeast activity so you can get a quick bottle carb in before shutting them down permanently with pasteurization. His time for pitching to pasteuring was only 10 days.. so I'm guessing it's a bit simpler/rawer than your brews but maybe not with such a high FG.

Taking my first SG reading today (why is it so hard to find graduated cylinders??), 6 days into the primary ferment, so I may be racking and crashing very soon. Will be reporting back!

From reading Charesty's post, it looks like cold crashing wont stop the Wy4766 so it would be a good one to use if you want to bottle pasteurize. Some yeasts will flocculate completely during the crash, but some dont, in which case you can use the crash to clear the cider without completely stopping the yeast. The sticky on bottle pasteurization also has some good info.

The use of nutrient may also be a factor. The apples I use are from a low fertilizer orchard (they only fertilize when the trees are young and stop when they are bearing), so the apple juice is low in nitrogen. This makes it easier to stop the yeast with crashing. A lot of commercial growers pump their trees with fertilizer to get more yield, which probably makes the juice harder to crash. Also many people add nutrients to their cider, which could be helpful if you want to crash as a clearing step, but dont want to stop the yeast

Be careful if you try to use nitrogen reduction to bottle carb a sweet cider. It is possible but very juice dependent. Make sure that you can successfully stop the fermentation by cold crashing first. Once you get that down, you can experiment with intentionally bottling an active ferment. I've been pretty lucky in only getting a couple of bottle bombs in many years, but I was crashing ciders for kegs years before I tried putting any of it in bottles.

The safest way to get a sweet carbonated cider (without using chemicals and/or artificial sweeteners) is to get a kegging setup. The bottle pasteurization method that Pappers describes in the sticky seems to me about as reliable as you could ask for IMHO, but some people still have trouble with this. Nitrogen reduction can potentially save time, but takes good juice an LOTS of practice to be safe.

getting back to the subject of an ideal cider yeast, a more realistic definition than exact ABV tolerence could be a yeast that:
1. reliably consumes all of the free nitrogen in the juice, ideally even from high nutrient juice
2. when no free nitrogen in juice, can live on nutrients from yeast hulls and trub and without getting stinky
3. does not flocculate completely during cold crash
4. lives for only a short time with no nutrient and does not leave any stank (providing bottle carb)

I think that Wy3333 can get something close to this with the right juice, but cant say for sure if I'll be able to repeat it. Are there any lager yeasts that are known to be sluggish but not stinky without nutrient? These might also be candidates.

The main challenge with nitrogen reduction that I can see is that it is a PIA to measure. If someone could come up with a better method to get a good reading without formal titration, that would be a big help. Otherwise, its just a matter of having consistent low nitrogen juice and practice.

For your juice, it could be that are other yeasts that work in this manner better than Wy3333. Wheat yeasts seem to be good candidates. Perhaps it will be the Wy4766! (but dont try this until you are first able to crash a batch and have it stay stable for 6 months first) Other folks have had good results with Wy4766, I believe I just let mine ferment out too fast.

Great info, I'm not familiar with the nitrogen reduction method, I'll have to read into that. I don't know (yet) which apples were used in this cider or if fertilizer was used but I'm taking another trip up to MD this weekend so I'll be armed with questions.

Previously, the LHBS guy sold me on throwing in 1/8 tsp of potassium metabisulphite for 72 hours before pitching as the cider had been in my fridge for a week already. I had bought it on the day it was pressed but couldn't get to the LHBS till later in the week. After that I threw in 1 1/4 tsp pectic enzyme for an hour before pitching the yeast with 2.5 tsp of yeast nutrient.

Tonight I picked up the missing pieces of gear I needed and took a SG reading: 1.0177. I don't have an OG but the cider was very apple-y, and medium tartness when I picked it up so I'd venture a guess of 1.04-1.05 OG.

Tasting the brew now it's pretty sour but still delicious. Probably due to the potassium metabisulphite? I doubt I'll use k-meta or yeast nutrient next time if I don't have to, especially if I can continue to pick up fresh unpasteurized cider from this orchard. Could that also explain the one blow over I had about 4 days in? The fermentation was moving at an absurd rate ~5++ bubbles a second. Prior to racking tonight I was @ 1 bubble / second, post racking @ 1 bubble / ~5 seconds.

Oh and I picked up the LHBS guy's last pack of Wy3333, he was in complete disbelief of using it with Cider. I think I've got a pretty good read on him as a traditional dry cider guy, wish I had realized that up front.

Update: I haven't put it in the fridge to cold crash yet and the bubbles are already back to 1 per 1.5-2 seconds. I also have an easily identifiable 1/2 inch of sediment on the bottom already. Mostly yeast? I'm not sure. This seems incredible to me as I racked it less than an hour ago.

i have not had good results with 4766, besides it drying out the cider it is next to impossible to stop. I crashed a cider with 4766 twice and when i thought it was stable at 1.10 for 2 weeks, i bottled it. Bottles lasted about 1 month and then started bursting. I took the gravity reading of one at 1 month and it was down to 1.00.

It also leaves the cider tasting like plain old rocket fuel and requires quite a long time to age. My first batch of 4766 i made over a year ago and is just starting to become drinkable. tastes more like a white wine with a splash of apple.

Im not a huge fan of apfelwein as it is also too dry IMHO, however my 4766 cider makes apfelwein look like a bottle of fine wine

wcarter1227 said:

i have not had good results with 4766, besides it drying out the cider it is next to impossible to stop. I crashed a cider with 4766 twice and when i thought it was stable at 1.10 for 2 weeks, i bottled it. Bottles lasted about 1 month and then started bursting. I took the gravity reading of one at 1 month and it was down to 1.00.

It also leaves the cider tasting like plain old rocket fuel and requires quite a long time to age. My first batch of 4766 i made over a year ago and is just starting to become drinkable. tastes more like a white wine with a splash of apple.

Im not a huge fan of apfelwein as it is also too dry IMHO, however my 4766 cider makes apfelwein look like a bottle of fine wine

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Good to know, if I hadn't been clueless when I bought it I certainly wouldn't have. It'll be a fun 5 gallons to experiment with but that's about it. Glad I was able to pick up the Wy3333 tonight and rack/crash the current brew after only 7 days of primary fermentation. Better set that fridge extra cold, pasteurization is going to be a must.

wcarter - did the 4766 taste OK at 1.010? Being impossible to stop could be useful for someone who is bottle pasteurizing and doesnt want the crash to stop the yeast

phishie - The Wy3333 makes a tasty cider but I strongly recommend not trying to use nitrogen reduction to bottle carb this next batch. Its not a reliable process and I would not recommend even experimenting with it to anyone who has not already had some experience and success with cold crashing.

It is important that first you verify that you can successfully crash the juice and stop it completely, so that it does not restart later. You may want to start with just a gallon for this. Or maybe crash just a gallon and pasteurize the rest.

After you crash the Wy3333, keep an eye on it. If your juice is like mine you will see a tiny bit of airlock activity for a few days, but only a few days. If it goes for much longer then it may not every be safe to put in a bottle without pasteurizaton. Otherwise, you want to note how long it takes to go flat and stay flat

You also might want to do some experimenting with gallon batches using some other yeasts. I suspect other wheat yeasts like 3068, 3056, 3638, WLP300, WLP380 have similar properties depending on the juice so one of these may work better with a given juice source. Also dont do this unless you are prepared to deal with burst bottles.

Experiment I will! I want to grab 10-12 single gallons this weekend for some extensive testing. I really like the flexibilty of brewing in the 1 gal jugs so any advice on that practice is greatly appreciated. Hopefully I can convince the orchard to sell me some empties as well. Do you reuse these at all?

I think I'll try out 3-4 different yeasts and attempt a couple wild yeasts with this round. Probably try US05, Wy3333, Wy3068, and S05 depending on what LHBS has in stock. Overzealous me bought two packets of Wy4766 a couple weeks ago so I have one of those left over. I think I'll let that ferment out to 1.000 with a gallon or two and then age in the bottle for a year or more to see how it turns out in the long run. I believe I'm partial to sweet/semi sweet ciders but I haven't tasted that many ciders so I'm still up in the air.

At the very least it'll be great practice for taking SG readings.

Edit: In the realm of the "perfect yeasts" topic, I'd like to use yeasts that produce drinkable ciders as quickly as possible. The use of k-meta and sorbate probably have a larger affect on this than yeast choice but wanted to throw that out there.

From the pictures I really like the clear flip-top bottles you use, it's cool to see the various cider colors side by side. I'm sure you don't store them in the sunlight but just out of curiousity, does sunlight affect cider like it does beer? In which case, brown bottles would protect the cider a bit better?

Will be picking up some new bottles soon, hence the interest.

I really like the flexibilty of brewing in the 1 gal jugs so any advice on that practice is greatly appreciated. Hopefully I can convince the orchard to sell me some empties as well. Do you reuse these at all?

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Yep, brewing in the 1gal jugs is handy. I usually get a couple extra empty jugs from the press and use them when I crash. When I crash gallons, I rack into the empty jugs, then chill for a few days, then rack back out into bottles. If I'm crashing more than two gallons at a time (which is most of the time) I'll clean the trub out of the ones I just racked, sanitize them and reuse them to crash the next two batches. But I'll just reuse them once like this. After all the ciders are bottled, I toss all the jugs in the recycling. Gallon jugs ferment faster than carboys so you need to keep an eye on them, but they are easier to crash. If you do a lot of these, its handy to have a small auto syphon. Also the bottle filling tip is handy for the 2nd rack into bottles.

does sunlight affect cider like it does beer? In which case, brown bottles would protect the cider a bit better?

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Probably. I cover my bottle racks with a tapestry to keep the sunlight off them. Brown bottles would likely work better, but the clear ones look really cool, so I suppose this is a matter of style over substance.

You should probably start with a case of PET bottles while you determine which yeasts work best. Before I started using bottles several years ago, I did a whole season of using just empty gatorade bottles. That way you cut down on risks while working the process out.

I'd like to use yeasts that produce drinkable ciders as quickly as possible

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That would be the ale and wheat yeasts. Lager yeasts should also work well if you use Papper's pasteurization method, as they are difficult to stop with cold crashing. I'm really liking the Brewpak Ale. It may replace S04 as my favorite all around yeast. IMHO its worth a few bucks to have it mailed from the UK

CvilleKevin said:

That would be the ale and wheat yeasts. Lager yeasts should also work well if you use Papper's pasteurization method, as they are difficult to stop with cold crashing. I'm really liking the Brewpak Ale. It may replace S04 as my favorite all around yeast. IMHO its worth a few bucks to have it mailed from the UK

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Ah nice, hadn't come across any mention of Brupak yeast yet. All I can find on google is the Brupak brewing packs, no pun intended. Linkage for buying from the UK? Which Brupak Ale yeast you've been using?

I found this list of Brupak Ale Yeasts on their site:
#1007 German
#1028 London
#1056 American
#1084 Irish
#1098 British
#1214 Belgian Abbey
#1275 Thames Valley
#1318 London III
#1335 British II
#1388 Belgian Strong Ale
#1728 Scottish
#1968 Special London
#2565 Kölsch
#3056 Bavarian Wheat
#3068 Weihenstephan Wheat
#3787 Belgian Trappist
#3944 Belgian White Beer

Those ones you listed are Wyeast. Here's the link to the UK place where I've been buying the Brupak ale

http://www.hopandgrape.co.uk/catalog/detailV2_8.asp?itemid=BRU20226716&catid=DRI2123070

CvilleKevin said:

I havent tried WLP775, but its on my list to check out, along with WYeast #1010

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I've got a WLP775 batch bubbling away right now. Did you ever get a chance to try it? If you did, any observations?

This 5-gallon batch started at 1.075 (cider at 1.060 sweetened with 15 points of cane/dextrose blend). I'm planning to bottle at 1.025 and pasteurize once it's carbed to keep it fairly sweet for SWMBO. This is my first batch of cider, so... does that sound like a decent plan?

I've got a WLP775 batch bubbling away right now. Did you ever get a chance to try it? If you did, any observations?

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I still havent tried WLP775, but I've seen a lot of positive posts on it. If you use the forum search you can find posts on this and a lot of the others that are mentioned here.

I'm planning to bottle at 1.025 and pasteurize once it's carbed to keep it fairly sweet for SWMBO

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Sounds like a good plan. Thats fairly sweet, when you taste it at 1.025 you might want to let it go a little longer, but you can make the call then. Once it starts getting close it would probably be a good idea to re-read the sticky on bottle pasteurization and make sure you have everything you need on hand. you may also want to search the forum for "bottle pasteurization" to find other tips on this.